Car and Driver M4cs Test

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

So you bought an auto??? Sorry. You set yourself up for that. Later you'll see I'm just a manual guy clinging on for dear life in this auto world.



I disagree. DCT is arguably the worst dual clutch unit on the market today. I drove it. It has it warts for sure and you are fine living with them. You won't notice them at the track but seriously - the CS (or ZCP) with DCT isn't the track car most people buy. Get serious about the track and you won't want to wad up a $100K car. If you do have that level of disposable income, again, you'll have something else (Porsche Cup car in a semi trailer w/ full crew?). ZF is better everywhere that MOST people use it which is why BMW is replacing it. Just like the SMG before it being replaced. I already told you that the ZF doesn't shift for you at redline on the X5M. That rev limiter will surprise you for sure. Your 'shift yourself' argument is done. It is already there in BMWs X5M programming. Probably will be there for all other 'M' cars.
Sorry.



Well why don't you count the number of current M cars that have ZFs vs DCTs. Please. M2 M3 and M4 with DCTs maybe...and that's giving you the F80 M3 that is out of production? I'm telling you it is a matter of programming, which the manufacturers have lots of control over, and you don't believe me. The exact things you called out on the Guilia are programmed IN the ZF on the X5M. I'd bet its there on the M5 too, but I haven't driven one yet. You are geeking out on hardware and not realizing that the end result can be nearly the same. Or possibly better?

This is where you have no faith in BMW. They already are tuning other 'auto' hardware to do what you like in the hardware you have.



And Audi has moved the S4, S5, RS5, etc off the dual clutch to the ZF. The big torque V8 motors already had the ZF. We both agree the dual clutches are mostly on the way out. Where we don't agree is that manufacturers can tune a conventional auto to do what you like with a dual clutch. I specifically bought my M3 because it was a manual. I'd never have this car with an auto...period. Throw an auto into the equation (DCT, ZF, whatever you wanna call it) and there are so many more options I'd consider along with the M3. Hell I'd probably still be driving the pants off my old X5M. That thing was gnarly even with the ZF. I could have it doing things a vehicle like that shouldn't be doing.

It isn't about bean counting. It is just better. Sorry you can't admit it. Lots of people with nothing invested in a DCT have already called this but you dig in. If your front splitter was made of lead - I bet you'd argue it was better for weight distribution or something.

Can you explain why technically a ZF 8AT is superior to a DCT?

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Can you explain why technically a ZF 8AT is superior to a DCT?

Nope. Unless I call out basic things like an 8th gear...but ratios and spacing are usually more important than the actual number of gears. I'm not a transmission engineer. But people who are have chosen the ZF 8HP - Audi RS5 and BMW M5 to call out just a few high perf cars using it.

[MDuckie]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

Nope. Unless I call out basic things like an 8th gear...but ratios and spacing are usually more important than the actual number of gears. I'm not a transmission engineer. But people who are have chosen the ZF 8HP - Audi RS5 and BMW M5 to call out just a few high perf cars using it.

I can't think of one supercar that uses a ZF torque converter. They all, however, use a DCT.

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

Nope. Unless I call out basic things like an 8th gear...but ratios and spacing are usually more important than the actual number of gears. I'm not a transmission engineer. But people who are have chosen the ZF 8HP - Audi RS5 and BMW M5 to call out just a few high perf cars using it.

Don't forget the Dodge Hellcats including the 840HP Challenger Demon and the 797HP Red Eye.

[IB M]

Yes - ironically due to cost CCBs are better for street use: cleaner wheels, hard parking at cars and coffee and they'll last nearly forever.