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      04-07-2022, 02:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Im only posting to give an objective opinion of datalogs as someone who has analyzed tens of thousands of datalogs, does know how to read them properly and has been tuning for 12+ years. I have no skin in this game, this is not meant to bash a tuner or a company.

The AFR is definitely lean compared to what you should be targeting for your power level to retain a certain safety margin, especially on the stock motor. This can play a big part in EGT's and reliability.

The total timing correction is around -7 degrees in most of the datalogs, however that is total timing correction which most of the time is from reducing the torque output to match the torque target and not individual cylinder corrections. I did see up to -5.3 degrees in a single cylinder correction which is significant, but not enough to indicate the EGTs are extreme enough to cause the separation of the turbine from the shaft.
Its possible that in extreme cases of high EGT the material of the blades can become fatigued enough creep and make contact with the turbine housing, which would cause the wheel to become unbalanced and eventually shear the wheel off the shaft.

The exhaust valves don't necessarily have to be damaged to indicate high EGT's because the high enthalpy exhaust gasses are further compressed in the turbine volute, the pressure and temperature can be significantly higher in the volute compared to at the exhaust port.

90% WGDC on the Kratos when running 33-36 psig does seem a little high which can indicate a boost leak and forcing the turbos to work harder which can lead to overspinning of the rotor group.

Bottom line is that I would not state that the datalogs show that the tune was safe and reliable, however, I would state that the logs show that the tune wasn't horrible and is not the direct cause of the failure. To me, it appears that there are several factors that could have attributed to the failure, but this is not a case of "this one thing" for sure caused the failure
We just wanted to clarify that the turbine never separated from the shaft. A close-up of OP's damaged turbine wheel is in our previous post.
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      04-07-2022, 04:12 PM   #24
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Would be nice if a true metallurgical RCA was performed not an assumption to truly understand what caused the failure. Was it impacted by rub, LCF or HCF?
That's what we do with our gas turbine blading, a good idea would be to integrate a speed sensor into your compressor housing so tuners know the limit based on your maps. Do you have maps for your compressor/turbine wheel as I've never have seen one?

Typically operating speeds are around 100,000 to 250,000 rev/min, depending on wheel size. Maybe take a peek at the turbo serial #, verify VSR and see if anything was out of balance for higher compressor/turbine speed. As good practice, it would be beneficial to offer the VSR report should the buyer asks for it.

My .02C.
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      04-07-2022, 05:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanted_M View Post
Would be nice if a true metallurgical RCA was performed not an assumption to truly understand what caused the failure. Was it impacted by rub, LCF or HCF?
That's what we do with our gas turbine blading, a good idea would be to integrate a speed sensor into your compressor housing so tuners know the limit based on your maps. Do you have maps for your compressor/turbine wheel as I've never have seen one?

Typically operating speeds are around 100,000 to 250,000 rev/min, depending on wheel size. Maybe take a peek at the turbo serial #, verify VSR and see if anything was out of balance for higher compressor/turbine speed. As good practice, it would be beneficial to offer the VSR report should the buyer asks for it.

My .02C.
We do not bring any turbo system to market without speed sensor testing data. All our prototype turbos utilize speed sensors for data collection to ensure shaft speeds stay within the adiabatic efficiency of our compressor wheels. Attached below you'll see an example of a speed sensor installed one one of our prototypes. We also don't provide compressor maps as we do not manufacture universal fit turbochargers. Companies that manufacture universal turbochargers provide this data so the end user can decipher which turbocharger is most efficient for their goals and vehicle application. Our Engineers design each turbo system specific to the vehicle application and therefore all the guess work is taken out of the equation. Also, the horsepower figures we advertise are directly based off of the flow capabilities that our rotor group has the ability to support. All this information has been provided before in previous online discussions about our turbo systems. To this day, we have yet to see any company sellling their own oem fitment turbochargers hybrid or otherwise that offer maps for their compressor wheels.

Operating speeds for turbochargers that utilize our frame size are nowhere near 250,000 rpm. In addition, no ball bearing technology could ever support those types of shaft speeds. Also, vsr balancing doesn't work in the manner you're describing. All our turbos are balanced below 1g via a Schenck balancer and the data for each serial number is then cataloged for internal purposes. In addition, a turbo that is balanced at low shaft speeds and out of balance at high shaft speeds will look like a dyno graph on the vsr screen. A balance that continues to climb as shaft speed climbs, even within range, is never an acceptable practice. A correctly balanced rotor group should either be flat or have a downward slope as shaft speed increases. This method also helps reduce vibration during overspeed conditions. Having said that, there is no need for us to go back to confirm if there was any balancing issue with a specific serial number. If a turbocharger doesn't pass our balancing requirements it is never shipped out. In the hypothetical scenario that a turbocharger was shipped out of balance, it would fail almost immediately at wot with this type of boost level and not 1000 miles later. Lastly, a balancing issue would not cause the turbine inducer to break off blades in an empty cavity unless the turbine wheel broke off the shaft making contact with the housing which did not occur.
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      04-07-2022, 07:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
We do not bring any turbo system to market without speed sensor testing data. All our prototype turbos utilize speed sensors for data collection to ensure shaft speeds stay within the adiabatic efficiency of our compressor wheels. We also don't provide compressor maps as we do not manufacture universal fit turbochargers. Companies that manufacture universal turbochargers provide this data so the end user can decipher which turbocharger is most efficient for their goals and vehicle application. Our Engineers design each turbo system specific to the vehicle application and therefore all the guess work is taken out of the equation. Also, the horsepower figures we advertise are directly based off of the flow capabilites that our rotor group has the ability to support. All this information has been provided before in previous online discussions about our turbo systems. To this day, we have yet to see any company sellling their own oem fitment turbochargers hybrid or otherwise that offer maps for their compressor wheels.

Operating speeds for turbochargers that utilize our frame size are nowhere near 250,000 rpm. In addition, no ball bearing technology could ever support those types of shaft speeds. Also, vsr balancing doesn't work in the manner you're describing. All our turbos are balanced below 1g via a Schenck balancer and the data for each serial number is then cataloged for internal purposes. In addition, a turbo that is balanced at low shaft speeds and out of balance at high shaft speeds will look like a dyno graph on the vsr screen. A balance that continues to climb as shaft speed climbs, even within range, is never an acceptable practice. A correctly balanced rotor group should either be flat or have a downward slope as shaft speed increases. This method also helps reduce vibration during overspeed conditions. Having said that, there is no need for us to go back to confirm if there was any balancing issue with a specific serial number. If a turbocharger doesn't pass our balancing requirements it is never shipped out. In the hypothetical scenario that a turbocharger was shipped out of balance, it would fail almost immediately at wot with this type of boost level and not 1000 miles later. Lastly, a balancing issue would not cause the turbine inducer to break off blades in an empty cavity unless the turbine wheel broke off the shaft making contact with the housing which did not occur.
Thank you for the response and appreciate the feedback. Glad to hear your engineering team does a 2-plane balancing and my speed was used as a reference not your actual turbo. I have no skin in this game and have nothing against Kratos but I definitely see some internal improvements that can be made based on your feedback but that's not my call and will never be, I can only provide feedback as a customer/forum member from the outside looking in. Kratos commands a premium for turbos and should be forth coming with info, not just an HP # as they are way too many variables to hit that #. You can always sign an NDA with certain tuners.

And to your point, never say never in regard to balancing or material defect. I've seen turbine blades fail due to a tinny material defect (pit) on a part which passed QA/QC and have been in operation for 1000's of hours, there's always room for improvement in everything we do.

One final thought, you're 100% certain that this turbine wheel failure was not HCF?
As you all know, a turbo can encounter high load cycles for prolonged periods on a dyno, long street pulls or racetrack. HCF will cause wheel deformity in those types of conditions which will cause failure. I'm guessing this wheel was standard and not Ti.

Thanks for taking the time to respond
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      04-08-2022, 11:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanted_M View Post
Thank you for the response and appreciate the feedback. Glad to hear your engineering team does a 2-plane balancing and my speed was used as a reference not your actual turbo. I have no skin in this game and have nothing against Kratos but I definitely see some internal improvements that can be made based on your feedback but that's not my call and will never be, I can only provide feedback as a customer/forum member from the outside looking in. Kratos commands a premium for turbos and should be forth coming with info, not just an HP # as they are way too many variables to hit that #. You can always sign an NDA with certain tuners.

And to your point, never say never in regard to balancing or material defect. I've seen turbine blades fail due to a tinny material defect (pit) on a part which passed QA/QC and have been in operation for 1000's of hours, there's always room for improvement in everything we do.

One final thought, you're 100% certain that this turbine wheel failure was not HCF?
As you all know, a turbo can encounter high load cycles for prolonged periods on a dyno, long street pulls or racetrack. HCF will cause wheel deformity in those types of conditions which will cause failure. I'm guessing this wheel was standard and not Ti.

Thanks for taking the time to respond
We appreciate the feedback and response as well and hope to be able to clear up some misinformation or misconception regarding our turbo systems. One of the points we commonly discuss is the perception or view that we demand premium pricing. When comparing the MSRP of our KRAS55EVO's to a well known hybrid turbo company for S55's, their MSRP as per their website is $7,085 with core charge. While our MSRP is only an $810 difference with no core-charge or core required. In both instances, the customer gets to keep his stock turbo cores. So, this would be an apples to apples comparison in terms of MSRP pricing. Yes, our turbos systems do have a higher MSRP as compared to other turbo systems. However, the end user is still paying $7,085 for modified stock turbos vs. an additional $810 for our turbo systems which utilizes a clean sheet designed dual ceramic ball bearing technology and produces a proven 300whp difference. Having said that, we certainly don't consider an additional $810 as demanding premium pricing considering the advantages and capabilities of our turbo systems.

With respect to the view that we need to be more forthcoming with information, we would have to respectfully disagree. Since the release of our KRAS55Bi turbo system to date, we have provided actual back pressure data, compressor flow lbs/min, speed sensor data, bearing technology data, vsr balancing data, dyno data, log data, dragy data, etc. On the contrary, many end users praise the fact that we offer more data and information than they've experienced from any other company offering turbo systems for the S55 platform. We also don't feel the need to execute NDA's with any tuner as the information we disclose is to the general public is more than sufficient for an experienced tuner to provide a solid and reliable tune. Any professional tuner that has experience with our turbochargers knows exactly what to look for and what to expect based on our turbocharger's capabilities. However, we understand that not all builds are the same and that is the responsibility of the tuner to decipher what modifications need to be made in the tune to accommodate for those differences.

We are also quite certain that this failure was not due to HCF. Our Engineers are very familiar with the causes that lead to HCF. However, they've seen this type of failure before and can easily recognize the root cause based on their knowledge and experience. Keep in mind that every batch of our turbo systems is sample tested utilizing 3rd party Fracture Toughness Testing which is performed according to ASTM E399 & ASTM E1820 Standards. In addition, Fatigue Testing which is performed according to ASTM E466, ASTM E606, BS-EN 6072, & BS-EN 7270 Standards. These are rigorous factory OEM style testing protocols that we are quite certain no other company producing OEM fitment turbocharger upgrades is performing.
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      04-08-2022, 07:18 PM   #28
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One layman customer makes a thread after spending money he didn't want to spend, and the business has to spend hours in a (probably futile) attempt to defend its reputation.
Meanwhile hundreds of readers will skim the first post and decide that the product is suspect.

I think that unless you are 100% certain that their product was defective (which would require a third-party assessment of the damage by qualified professionals) you should handle your dispute in private.
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      04-08-2022, 07:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000hp View Post
One layman customer makes a thread after spending money he didn't want to spend, and the business has to spend hours in a (probably futile) attempt to defend its reputation.
Meanwhile hundreds of readers will skim the first post and decide that the product is suspect.

I think that unless you are 100% certain that their product was defective (which would require a third-party assessment of the damage by qualified professionals) you should handle your dispute in private.
It has nothing to do with money that I don't want to spend. I clearly bought the turbos and paid for the rebuild.

As the post is titled it's My experience. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the point is I have failed turbos and received poor customer service. Weather they failed due to the tune or not, those two stand
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      04-08-2022, 08:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000hp View Post
One layman customer makes a thread after spending money he didn't want to spend, and the business has to spend hours in a (probably futile) attempt to defend its reputation.
Meanwhile hundreds of readers will skim the first post and decide that the product is suspect.

I think that unless you are 100% certain that their product was defective (which would require a third-party assessment of the damage by qualified professionals) you should handle your dispute in private.
I mean there's multiple forum members with failed kratos turbos soo your point….
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      04-08-2022, 08:32 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinYellowm3 View Post
I mean there's multiple forum members with failed kratos turbos soo your point….
Sooo my point is that unless you have actual proof that your failure was caused by a defect in the product you shouldn't go on the internet and claim that it was.

And you should probably have your shit together before you, as a layman, try to debate turbo engineers about the cause of the failure.
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      04-08-2022, 09:38 PM   #32
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I beg to differ. Right now we have a failed turbo and neither customer nor manufacturer is able to prove the cause of failure.

How can customer prove beyond doubt the reason of failure?

And we also know that manufacturer’s given reason of failure is also a best guess at this point, which has somewhat been given less credibility by an independent tuner’s opinion.
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      04-08-2022, 10:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92inSG View Post
I beg to differ. Right now we have a failed turbo and neither customer nor manufacturer is able to prove the cause of failure.

How can customer prove beyond doubt the reason of failure?

And we also know that manufacturer’s given reason of failure is also a best guess at this point, which has somewhat been given less credibility by an independent tuner’s opinion.
That's true. Kratos hasn't proven their case either. But I think it's unlikely that they would stonewall the customer rather than simply acknowledge the error and warranty the turbo.
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      04-09-2022, 03:28 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000hp View Post
That's true. Kratos hasn't proven their case either. But I think it's unlikely that they would stonewall the customer rather than simply acknowledge the error and warranty the turbo.
very far in fact from being convincing of their cause of turbo damage analysis. I've looked at both logs, and their claim of severe timing corrections + high boost (36psi) being the cause of damage is highly suspect. They also said that they are led to believe this due to there not being any evidence of other physical damage. The timing corrections I see in the logs are easily evident in many other logs even on OTS maps, and there was no knock event recorded as well. and 36psi being high boost for Kratos turbos? That's a joke.
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      04-09-2022, 02:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92inSG View Post
very far in fact from being convincing of their cause of turbo damage analysis. I've looked at both logs, and their claim of severe timing corrections + high boost (36psi) being the cause of damage is highly suspect. They also said that they are led to believe this due to there not being any evidence of other physical damage. The timing corrections I see in the logs are easily evident in many other logs even on OTS maps, and there was no knock event recorded as well. and 36psi being high boost for Kratos turbos? That's a joke.
Exactly my point, There's many turbo manufactures much cheaper that would replace these turbos no questions asked (assuming the install was done correctly). Install issues of oil lines can cause problems its recommended to just replace all lines.

Kratos seems to charge much more and this isn't the first time they have been extremely shady in regards to turbo warranty. They had a platform here to say you know what we will go ahead and warranty it WHICH would put more confidence in the consumer. But instead they chose ego based of information they cant ACTUALLY PROVE and chose the opposite route. Now 1,000+ members of this forum posting is seeing them for what they truly are. And the viewer count will only continue to grow. And dont worry, word of mouth will spread like wild fire OP.

The appropriate response to such an issue would be to cover 50% of the warranty considering you've failed to truly prove your case of what actually did happen. Ill say this. Stiffing 100% of the cost to OP was definitely not the right answer and the fact that you didnt even cover a percentage is honestly sad.
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      04-09-2022, 03:05 PM   #36
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Finally received the turbos this morning. Unfortunately, they didn't come back in the nice KRATOS box that I sent them. Looks like these "upgraded" compressor wheels are no longer painted orange. Youtube link for video and pictures below.

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Last edited by RodF82; 04-09-2022 at 03:12 PM..
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      04-09-2022, 03:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodF82 View Post
Finally received the turbos this morning. Unfortunately, they didn't come back in the nice KRATOS box that I sent them. Looks like these "upgraded" compressor wheels are no longer painted orange. Youtube link for video and pictures below.

Hope the new set works out well for you.
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      04-09-2022, 04:17 PM   #38
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Yikes, 1500-mile oil changes seem excessive, I ran E50/100% meth on my previous platform and religiously changed oil @ 6000 miles as a daily. Every sample was sent to Blackstone labs and never had any issues with water or fuel in the oil... Ran Penzoil 0w-40 European formula from Walmart (lol) for over 100k miles, no issues.

The first turbo on your video shows a lot more play than the other, weird or my eyes playing tricks on me!! I wonder what's the tolerance and were they balanced?
@OP, sell the turbos recoup some cash and buy a 4N single turbo and put this behind you...
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      04-09-2022, 05:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanted_M View Post
Yikes, 1500-mile oil changes seem excessive, I ran E50/100% meth on my previous platform and religiously changed oil @ 6000 miles as a daily. Every sample was sent to Blackstone labs and never had any issues with water or fuel in the oil... Ran Penzoil 0w-40 European formula from Walmart (lol) for over 100k miles, no issues.

The first turbo on your video shows a lot more play than the other, weird or my eyes playing tricks on me!! I wonder what's the tolerance and were they balanced?
@OP, sell the turbos recoup some cash and buy a 4N single turbo and put this behind you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanted_M View Post
Yikes, 1500-mile oil changes seem excessive, I ran E50/100% meth on my previous platform and religiously changed oil @ 6000 miles as a daily. Every sample was sent to Blackstone labs and never had any issues with water or fuel in the oil... Ran Penzoil 0w-40 European formula from Walmart (lol) for over 100k miles, no issues.

The first turbo on your video shows a lot more play than the other, weird or my eyes playing tricks on me!! I wonder what's the tolerance and were they balanced?
@OP, sell the turbos recoup some cash and buy a 4N single turbo and put this behind you...
+ 1 or just got with pures or mosselman turbos
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      04-09-2022, 06:22 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87 View Post
Now 1,000+ members of this forum posting is seeing them for what they truly are. And the viewer count will only continue to grow. And dont worry, word of mouth will spread like wild fire OP.
No offense, but this thread is just turning into a bandwagon jump. You could easily have said the same thing about VTT and Pure turbos when those threads were on the front page after someone experienced a failure; it's nothing more than the flavor of the week.
A quick search through the forums is enough to show that both VTT and Pure turbos have had issues as well; no system is bullet proof, especially when you take into consideration all of the variables that go into a build and have the potential to cause issues.

Friendly advice to anyone researching turbo systems from someone who has: do your own research and don't rely on one post alone to dictate your decisions.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...505&page=2

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1278244

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1731840

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...744&page=2
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      04-09-2022, 07:35 PM   #41
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@RodF82 if these were from Tony V you would have been told to buy a whole new set. The only customer service over there is the angry kind…

Even though you had an unfortunate event you still made a good choice in going with Kratos.
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      04-09-2022, 07:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanted_M View Post
Yikes, 1500-mile oil changes seem excessive, I ran E50/100% meth on my previous platform and religiously changed oil @ 6000 miles as a daily.
On my stock F80 running E85 contaminated my oil within 2K miles, you could smell moonshine when you opened the fill cap. I guess some engines have more blow by than others. My OCC also collected a lot of catch.

Motul 300V race oil has great shear protection but little additives to protect from contamination. I can see why they ask to change it often. I get mine free from FCPEuro.
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      04-09-2022, 07:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
No offense, but this thread is just turning into a bandwagon jump. You could easily have said the same thing about VTT and Pure turbos when those threads were on the front page after someone experienced a failure; it's nothing more than the flavor of the week.
A quick search through the forums is enough to show that both VTT and Pure turbos have had issues as well; no system is bullet proof, especially when you take into consideration all of the variables that go into a build and have the potential to cause issues.

Friendly advice to anyone researching turbo systems from someone who has: do your own research and don't rely on one post alone to dictate your decisions.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1790505&page=2

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1278244

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1731840

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1667744&page=2
Noone is bandwagging anything. You can have that opinion.

What stands is a company failed to offer a warranty based off assumption. That hasnt changed and stuck 100% of the cost to OP without a strong case.

Its bad business. My opinion still stands based off everything ive seen.

If you read, youll understand I was looking at kratos, But because OP I prefer great customer service. It doesnt matter what other companys did and didnt do.

Fact of the matter is, we are here right now reading all this and Kratos colors really showed. Please take your thoughts on me elsewhere

Plus you seem to not understand this isnt about the turbos failing or not. Never was. It's about how they stiff armed OP with a poor case and assumption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87 View Post
Noone is bandwagging anything. You can have that opinion.

What stands is a company failed to offer a warranty based off assumption. That hasnt changed and stuck 100% of the cost to OP without a strong case.

Its bad business. My opinion still stands based off everything ive seen.

If you read, youll understand I was looking at kratos, But because OP I prefer great customer service. It doesnt matter what other companys did and didnt do.

Fact of the matter is, we are here right now reading all this and Kratos colors really showed. Please take your thoughts on me elsewhere

Plus you seem to not understand this isnt about the turbos failing or not. Never was. It's about how they stiff armed OP with a poor case and assumption
My apologies if my comment came across as a direct affront, the "you" I was referring to was meant in more generalistic terms.

While I'm aware that the issue is not necessarily about the turbos failing, the same argument stands: both VTT and Pure have had instances of refused warranties as a result of some sort of failure, and the same thing was said about their customer service at the time.

Every business will have its outliers, but that's why it's important not to base a companies reputation off of just one review without performing due diligence and researching them further.
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