Track forum general chit chat

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If you didn't like the R1 I don't think we can be friends

Lol just a newbie's first impression with semi-slick. Most likely due to my "ineptitude" that finds a new challenge. They were amazing in feels but with much lower sense of security and small time improvement than Nittos. The edge is narrow so I mostly either exceeded it causing oversteer or stayed below. When I managed to put it on the 'rail sliding' it just stayed only very shortly. So either just gripping, or stepping out and having to correct very quickly. It's fine but correcting that sudden oversteer at higher speed like tracking out at 90mph and seeing car still pointing toward outside of the track, wow it was strange and trust was not building with these sneaky tires. The sense of steering was different too. It just steers without very little sense of understeer; but with consequences making my hands busy shortly afterwards.

It was interesting that it felt extremely grippy at first while the actual maintained speed was not really faster than corded-slick state of NT-01s. Maybe <1 second? Probably there is more room for that narrow edge of limit and also a lot due to lack of suspension support as you said; so while I am stuck with these challenges next season I will be endlessly tempted for the MCS I guess.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Lol just a newbie's first impression with semi-slick. Most likely due to my "ineptitude" that finds a new challenge. They were amazing in feels but with much lower sense of security and small time improvement than Nittos. The edge is narrow so I mostly either exceeded it causing oversteer or stayed below. When I managed to put it on the 'rail sliding' it just stayed only very shortly. So either just gripping, or stepping out and having to correct very quickly. It's fine but correcting that sudden oversteer at higher speed like tracking out at 90mph and seeing car still pointing toward outside of the track, wow it was strange and trust was not building with these sneaky tires. The sense of steering was different too. It just steers without very little sense of understeer; but with consequences making my hands busy shortly afterwards.

It was interesting that it felt extremely grippy at first while the actual maintained speed was not really faster than corded-slick state of NT-01s. Maybe <1 second? Probably there is more room for that narrow edge of limit and also a lot due to lack of suspension support as you said; so while I am stuck with these challenges next season I will be endlessly tempted for the MCS I guess.

You've probably said so in the past, but remind me what suspension you have?

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You've probably said so in the past, but remind me what suspension you have?

//M adaptive suspension

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

//M adaptive suspension

Ah, ok. Well then no wonder you didn't like them. You did the same thing NYG did.

You can't run something stickier than a ~RE71 with stock suspension.

I ran into my video in the first weekend testing the CS at the track with stock suspension. With RE71 a 2:06.7 came out but with R1 the car was literally slower: 2:07.0. The video shows how there is a lot of snap oversteer moments when running the R1. That happens because the additional grip makes the suspension run out of travel and then you're on the bump stop, when that happens it immediately shocks the tire and you lose traction.

With stock suspension you need to stick to street tires

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Ah, ok. Well then no wonder you didn't like them. You did the same thing NYG did.

You can't run something stickier than a ~RE71 with stock suspension.

I ran into my video in the first weekend testing the CS at the track with stock suspension. With RE71 a 2:06.7 came out but with R1 the car was literally slower: 2:07.0. The video shows how there is a lot of snap oversteer moments when running the R1. That happens because the additional grip makes the suspension run out of travel and then you're on the bump stop, when that happens it immediately shocks the tire and you lose traction.

With stock suspension you need to stick to street tires

So what you are saying is that R1s are supposed to be as easy to drive at limit and predictable as RE-71r with supporting suspension right? It sounds pretty plausible...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

So what you are saying is that R1s are supposed to be as easy to drive at limit and predictable as RE-71r with supporting suspension right? It sounds pretty plausible...

It's a broader statement: stock suspension should not be used with grip levels beyond a sticky street tire.

NYG was using the Toyo RR in his run.

Specifically to the R1, yes, it is a goldilocks tire. It's the only tire with real durability at high speeds because I know many like to think the NT01 is that, but it is not.
The R1 is actually cheaper to run than a sticky street tire while being a bit faster. Hard to fault that!

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It's a broader statement: stock suspension should not be used with grip levels beyond a sticky street tire.

NYG was using the Toyo RR in his run.

Specifically to the R1, yes, it is a goldilocks tire. It's the only tire with real durability at high speeds because I know many like to think the NT01 is that, but it is not.
The R1 is actually cheaper to run than a sticky street tire while being a bit faster. Hard to fault that!

Yeah I've read NYG's post and thought I would try it as well for fun; but didn't realize that has such significant stability impact like this. I guess another one biting the bullet.

The car doesn't seem to have so much body roll so I am not totally sure, but it makes sense that if spring cannot support more push in smooth manner and the tires' informaton is tranferred through bump stops there must be compromise in feedback and that instability. Time to call the shop for consulting I guess!

[gum2012]

I ran RE71s on my stock suspension and they worked fine. No where near the grip I have now with apr aero and mcs suspension . But they definitely worked with stock suspension.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Ah, ok. Well then no wonder you didn't like them. You did the same thing NYG did.

You can't run something stickier than a ~RE71 with stock suspension.

I ran into my video in the first weekend testing the CS at the track with stock suspension. With RE71 a 2:06.7 came out but with R1 the car was literally slower: 2:07.0. The video shows how there is a lot of snap oversteer moments when running the R1. That happens because the additional grip makes the suspension run out of travel and then you're on the bump stop, when that happens it immediately shocks the tire and you lose traction.

With stock suspension you need to stick to street tires

How about with the MPHAS?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by jmg

How about with the MPHAS?

I don't think there is a significant difference. Whatever spring rates the mphas uses, they are close enough to stock for bmw to warranty the stock shock to last 50k miles.

[F80Speed77]

More grip = More roll = More positive camber gain = less effective use of tire = slower lap time

[adc]

Originally Posted by F80Speed77

Yikes which turn was it? I had a buddy total an FRS on the crest of the hill after Turn 1.

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Turn 2 over the crest can be sketchy, I like to cut that turn off to straight up as much as possible, feels much safer (to me at least). I had one of my first NASA instructors crash his 964 or G-series there on cold tires a few years back (spun, over-corrected and went right into the wall on the left). Seems like turn 10, 14, and 17 cause trouble for others as well. Wish I would have went there for the Chin event last weekend.

Somewhere in between turns 1 and 2, closer to 2. Exit line from 1 wasn’t ideal, perhaps too much curb, in any case too much throttle and snap oversteer, inadequate correction for the reverse oversteer saw me headed backwards at an angle uphill towards the barriers. It just gently touched the front corner and spun me right back in the right direction. When I stopped I was just yards from the escape road on the left side.

Actually the way I recall it, the wheel slipped from my hands as I was correcting the pendulum, and when I caught it back it was too late. Wish my GoPro was still recording at the time...

This was after 4 sessions of 30 min, plus almost 40 min in the last session. I was pretty knackered and should have known better. But there were so many yummy cars to chase around... Very similar to the last ski run on the mountain, which should have been the previous one.

I only have myself to blame really.

[fanatic1]

... Very similar to the last ski run on the mountain, which should have been the previous one.

I only have myself to blame really.[/QUOTE]

And we have the injuries to show for it......

[adc]

On a positive note, at PittRace I was able to do two sessions on a tank of gas, without fuel starvation issues (because I forgot to refuel).

Fuel consumption is much worse at VIR. And maybe also more sustained high-G cornering.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Did last track day of the year in the Miata. It was amazing. In fact not too much different with M4 in how it reacts to weight transfer bumping above and scratching near the edge. My weight management and smoothness a year back must have been pretty horrible. Loved RE-71Rs. So good. So much trust. Really like the new way I learned to think in terms of the concept of weight loaded to springs and how tires feels through it. So much fun!

[Suds]

The size and weight of a Miata is amazing, and the way you can feel the grip moving from front to rear has to be appreciated. I bought a 92’ Miata that was track prepped when my son was in high school to teach him how to drive a stick. Fun cars!
The car got great when I put sticky rubber on it.

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Did last track day of the year in the Miata. It was amazing. In fact not too much different with M4 in how it reacts to weight transfer bumping above and scratching near the edge. My weight management and smoothness a year back must have been pretty horrible. Loved RE-71Rs. So good. So much trust. Really like the new way I learned to think in terms of the concept of weight loaded to springs and how tires feels through it. So much fun!

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by Suds

The size and weight of a Miata is amazing, and the way you can feel the grip moving from front to rear has to be appreciated. I bought a 92’ Miata that was track prepped when my son was in high school to teach him how to drive a stick. Fun cars!
The car got great when I put sticky rubber on it.

Totally! It must have been such a treat for your son. Maybe you stole an opportunity for him to discover the gem in a random point of his life. Thanks for sharing the photo of the sweet car.

By the way, in my Miata oversteering video I found I was doing what you were talking about- both hands off while the steering wheel rewinding by itself real quick. I don't know how that happened but it appears to be working!

[swagon]

Originally Posted by swagon

Magically found a hole in my calendar so booked a track day for next week!

This time, I've ordered track brake pads pretty early on but again, I could not get what I wanted which is Ferodo DS1.11 all around so had to settle for DS1.11 on the front and DS2500 rear; not ideal, I know, but still better than OEM. Can never catch a break. However, I'm promised they're gonna arrive just in time.

Oi oi, so here's the report from my second track event! It was sunny and 20C all day, making it finally my first dry track day with the M3.

I had never been to this track so I spent the day working on my driving while also trying to navigate the track. I had a couple eureka moments where I went, "oh, this is what happens when you do this!" that wouldn't otherwise happen on a public road due to the slower pace.

One example would be that I was a bit faster on the way in so my wrong intention was to coast through the corner, well, that resulted in an unsettled behaviour of the car. I then did it again on purpose to see the difference between off-throttle and on-throttle. Pretty astounding how settled the car is when you're on maintenance throttle through a corner. DUH. I know.

During my second session with the instructor in the afternoon, I became more confident in both the car and myself after being complimented on my two clean laps and overall progress since my first day. Felt happy for once in life, lmao.

Anyway, to sum it up, I had fun, this car is great and my wallet is definitely in shambles.


Main takeaways:

1. Ferodo pads: Got rid of my brake judder prior to event, amazing performance, great bite, almost zero brake squeal even on street, cheaper than OE stuff!

2. Stock Civic F80: very satisfied with it on track, the passive suspension makes a lot of sense on smooth tarmac and tracks; been told that everyone in the paddock loved it for its pureness - 18" wheels, three pedals, cloth seats, no spoilers. Pleased my ego.

3. Some wannabe pros need to chill out with their tailgating, I see you in my mirror, I am going to let you by in a sec... No insurance on track so stay the fuck away

4. One-on-one sessions with a good instructor are worth every penny, do trust me on this one.


Question regarding tire wear

Below is a photo of my front left Goodyear tire after getting home. It's still got crap all over it, but you can see that the center and intermediate ribs are worn towards the outside of the tire. On two different occasions in one third-gear right-hander, I was experiencing slight vibrations coming from the front left side. First time seeing this kind of wear on my tires and I am confusion.

Cheers lads

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by swagon

Oi oi, so here's the report from my second track event! It was sunny and 20C all day, making it finally my first dry track day with the M3.

I had never been to this track so I spent the day working on my driving while also trying to navigate the track. I had a couple eureka moments where I went, "oh, this is what happens when you do this!" that wouldn't otherwise happen on a public road due to the slower pace.

One example would be that I was a bit faster on the way in so my wrong intention was to coast through the corner, well, that resulted in an unsettled behaviour of the car. I then did it again on purpose to see the difference between off-throttle and on-throttle. Pretty astounding how settled the car is when you're on maintenance throttle through a corner. DUH. I know.

During my second session with the instructor in the afternoon, I became more confident in both the car and myself after being complimented on my two clean laps and overall progress since my first day. Felt happy for once in life, lmao.

Anyway, to sum it up, I had fun, this car is great and my wallet is definitely in shambles.


Main takeaways:

1. Ferodo pads: Got rid of my brake judder prior to event, amazing performance, great bite, almost zero brake squeal even on street, cheaper than OE stuff!

2. Stock Civic F80: very satisfied with it on track, the passive suspension makes a lot of sense on smooth tarmac and tracks; been told that everyone in the paddock loved it for its pureness - 18" wheels, three pedals, cloth seats, no spoilers. Pleased my ego.

3. Some wannabe pros need to chill out with their tailgating, I see you in my mirror, I am going to let you by in a sec... No insurance on track so stay the fuck away

4. One-on-one sessions with a good instructor are worth every penny, do trust me on this one.


Question regarding tire wear

Below is a photo of my front left Goodyear tire after getting home. It's still got crap all over it, but you can see that the center and intermediate ribs are worn towards the outside of the tire. On two different occasions in one third-gear right-hander, I was experiencing slight vibrations coming from the front left side. First time seeing this kind of wear on my tires and I am confusion.

Cheers lads

Glad you enjoyed your track day! It's an awesome thing and sometimes I'm surprised it's even legal!

It's normal for tires to wear like that. You will need camber plates to tame the wear of the outside edge

A stock M3 with just camber plates and brake pads is a really good tool. Absolutely no need for different suspension, the non-EDC works perfectly. I've never felt it slowed one of my students down.

And as you said, a good instructor is key. It is very rewarding to see your student get faster.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by swagon

Question regarding tire wear

Below is a photo of my front left Goodyear tire after getting home. It's still got crap all over it, but you can see that the center and intermediate ribs are worn towards the outside of the tire. On two different occasions in one third-gear right-hander, I was experiencing slight vibrations coming from the front left side. First time seeing this kind of wear on my tires and I am confusion.

Cheers lads

Uh oh, you're clearly picking up the pace... Glad your brakes are sorted.

Rubber pick up the likely cause of the vibrations. Notice any "tick-tick-tick" or "thud-thud-thud" noise along with?

+1 on camber.

Still look for open track to this day and avoid crowds. Impatience from cars behind, not your problem. As long as you're following point by protocols and not delaying unnecessarily, don't sweat it. Cars behind should make themselves visible, but applying extra pressure, swerving, tailgating, etc. are such stupid moves. Stay at your pace, don't drive in your mirrors, point by at first opportunity.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Glad you enjoyed your track day! It's an awesome thing and sometimes I'm surprised it's even legal!

It's normal for tires to wear like that. You will need camber plates to tame the wear of the outside edge

A stock M3 with just camber plates and brake pads is a really good tool. Absolutely no need for different suspension, the non-EDC works perfectly. I've never felt it slowed one of my students down.

And as you said, a good instructor is key. It is very rewarding to see your student get faster.

Thanks. Ha, don't give them any ideas! I, for one, am glad it's legal to have fun in a car at least on the race track these days.

I am scared of too much added NVH from the camber plates, though I have not done much research on the subject. Maybe there are some more street-friendly solutions.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Uh oh, you're clearly picking up the pace... Glad your brakes are sorted.

Rubber pick up the likely cause of the vibrations. Notice any "tick-tick-tick" or "thud-thud-thud" noise along with?

+1 on camber.

Still look for open track to this day and avoid crowds. Impatience from cars behind, not your problem. As long as you're following point by protocols and not delaying unnecessarily, don't sweat it. Cars behind should make themselves visible, but applying extra pressure, swerving, tailgating, etc. are such stupid moves. Stay at your pace, don't drive in your mirrors, point by at first opportunity.

I don't think I had any of those noises, but it's been two weeks since the day and I am forgetful. I did notice worse behaviour in the wet today due to the wear, thankfully (I mean unfortunately) I have to install winter tires by the end of the next month!

I think the rules are less strict in Europe than in the US regarding overtaking and point-bys (using turn signals). This event had no rule of overtaking only on the left which I think should've been mandatory when there are newbies, wannabes and seasoned drivers altogether.

Yeah, I let them go at the next best opportunity. While I am usually unfazed by idiots in cars, tailgating really gets on my nerve both on the road and track. No one gains anything from being close to anyone's behind... that's what she said.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by swagon

Anyway, to sum it up, I had fun, this car is great and my wallet is definitely in shambles.

Welcome to the club! You don't have to be one of those who have to be on the 1st lane on freeway all the time and there are many different ways and perspectives to have a great time and learn; and without having to replace pads and tires every few track days. I think you already got it though sir!