Trade in my Porsche 991.2 C2S for a F80 M3 ZCP?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mbiondo

+1. SUV's should be large, heavy, well optioned, slow and luxurious. In other words, everything a sports car shouldn't.

Why can't it be large, heavy, well optioned, luxurious and fast in a straight line due to a monster engine?

If you have $$$ to burn having a ridiculous SUV (or a 4500lb e63 wagon type thing) is pretty great

OP, if you need to move to 1 car, M3 is where it's at. Best dual purpose car out there, in my opinion

[Harroldv]

Originally Posted by MojorisinM3

You need to get out to drive the F80 M3. Its not the same car as the E46 - its bigger and not connected, no NA motor but a turbo. I had mine for 5 months and dumped it, its just not fun in the twisties like the previous M cars. Make sure to drive the Comp Pack, the base was the worse M car I've ever owned.

Went to a 991.1 GTS and couldnt be happier. I would try to keep the 991. The 991.2 is not very good in the sound department like the F80, but makes up with the refinement updates.

If you do end up with the M3 then it could serve as your single vehicle, just put a set of snows on for winter.

I had some seat time in the F80 M3, it looks great, but not like a 911-great.

Soundwise the 991.2 is not as good as a 991.1 or other NA 911, but it's low down torque does the car good in the driving department. And i have the PSE, but hear the turbo's spooling quite a lot.

I had a deal with a car dealer to swap the 991.2 cs for a F80 30 years, but have a hard time deciding. I love both cars, they both drive good (the 991.2 is comfy sportcar, the M3 is very sporty comfortable car).

Don't really think i can justify the swap with an M3 30 years which is a very nice cosmetic package but inflated in price and will come down as well eventually (it's limited but only cosmetic, nothing like the CS M3).

So will probably keep the 911 and maybe somewhere down the road an M3 as fun daily when the prices or at a low.

Thanks for the input!

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by MojorisinM3

You need to get out to drive the F80 M3. Its not the same car as the E46 - its bigger and not connected, no NA motor but a turbo. I had mine for 5 months and dumped it, its just not fun in the twisties like the previous M cars. Make sure to drive the Comp Pack, the base was the worse M car I've ever owned.

Went to a 991.1 GTS and couldnt be happier. I would try to keep the 991. The 991.2 is not very good in the sound department like the F80, but makes up with the refinement updates.

If you do end up with the M3 then it could serve as your single vehicle, just put a set of snows on for winter.

interesting. i didn't like the e46 as much as the e36 and this f80 is the best m car i've had, now 3 years old. s55 engine is a real gem to me, very consistent, pulls hard to redline, easy to learn to overcome torqueness and lag. I've swapped out the 275's to 295 rears and the car has been amazing. I feel connected to this car, I know what it's going to do when I ask for it. Chassis is consistent, rear is communicative, etc. Both the E36 and F80 shrinks as you drive harder, the E46 had a great engine, but the chassis felt not as tight.

I hope to replace it with the 991.2 gts in a few years at the end of production, but have heard mixed reviews on the new p car turbos- does not pull to the top of redline and is laggy. TheGetawayer (who works at Autobild now) compares the engine to the m4, and says the GTS is restricted and lacks a peak at top vs the bmw- 4:40 minutes if you want to skip to it. Very surprised. My dad has a '17 Cayenne GTS with the new turbo engine (3.6 liter v6 440 hp) and I've driven it a few hundred miles- it is interesting driving it back to back with my M cars, it feels like Porsche is trying to make the engine more linear by raising the torque peak a bit later, but I think in some ways it feels artificially choked. Still, love the driving refinement and the build quality of a Porsche.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

interesting. i didn't like the e46 as much as the e36 and this f80 is the best m car i've had, now 3 years old. s55 engine is a real gem to me, very consistent, pulls hard to redline, easy to learn to overcome torqueness and lag. I've swapped out the 275's to 295 rears and the car has been amazing. I feel connected to this car, I know what it's going to do when I ask for it. Chassis is consistent, rear is communicative, etc. Both the E36 and F80 shrinks as you drive harder, the E46 had a great engine, but the chassis felt not as tight.

I hope to replace it with the 991.2 gts in a few years at the end of production, but have heard mixed reviews on the new p car turbos- does not pull to the top of redline and is laggy. TheGetawayer (who works at Autobild now) compares the engine to the m4, and says the GTS is restricted and lacks a peak at top vs the bmw- 4:40 minutes if you want to skip to it. Very surprised. My dad has a '17 Cayenne GTS with the new turbo engine (3.6 liter v6 440 hp) and I've driven it a few hundred miles- it is interesting driving it back to back with my M cars, it feels like Porsche is trying to make the engine more linear by raising the torque peak a bit later, but I think in some ways it feels artificially choked. Still, love the driving refinement and the build quality of a Porsche.

I wouldn’t agree with that assessment and that is contradictory to most every other review and how they feel. The s55 feels like it really runs out of steam above 5500 rpms. The turbo 911s feel stronger up top to redline and feel like they encourage doing so more. They are certainly a good bit faster too. The GTS itself is a low 11 second car with mid 120 mph trap speeds.
The Carrera turbo engines also beat the s55 for engine of the year for the size by large margin too. It’s sinply a better engine and feels less laggy to me. On top of that, the 911s actually sound good!

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

interesting. i didn't like the e46 as much as the e36 and this f80 is the best m car i've had, now 3 years old. s55 engine is a real gem to me, very consistent, pulls hard to redline, easy to learn to overcome torqueness and lag. I've swapped out the 275's to 295 rears and the car has been amazing. I feel connected to this car, I know what it's going to do when I ask for it. Chassis is consistent, rear is communicative, etc. Both the E36 and F80 shrinks as you drive harder, the E46 had a great engine, but the chassis felt not as tight.

I hope to replace it with the 991.2 gts in a few years at the end of production, but have heard mixed reviews on the new p car turbos- does not pull to the top of redline and is laggy. TheGetawayer (who works at Autobild now) compares the engine to the m4, and says the GTS is restricted and lacks a peak at top vs the bmw- 4:40 minutes if you want to skip to it. Very surprised. My dad has a '17 Cayenne GTS with the new turbo engine (3.6 liter v6 440 hp) and I've driven it a few hundred miles- it is interesting driving it back to back with my M cars, it feels like Porsche is trying to make the engine more linear by raising the torque peak a bit later, but I think in some ways it feels artificially choked. Still, love the driving refinement and the build quality of a Porsche.

More neophytes, youtubers and silly car journalist trying to maintain relevance.

Porsche is not trying to make anything more linear by raising the torque peak a bit later. That is silly and confusing torque and hp. FI simply provides the ability to create a very flat torque curve. You optimize this by creating a table top look as early as possible in the rev range and by maximizing area under the torque curve. Build for torque and HP will naturally follow after 5250.

There were some early 991.1 owner "pro-NA" guys saying this very early on when the .2 came out. Dynos and acceleration tests belie this seat of the pants, butt dyno effect caused by a very flat, and much more preferred, torque curve. The problem is comparing a NA sensation that starts out weak and builds through the rev range, versus something that is at max acceleration the entire time. It is not dropping off . . . It just ain't increasing and is providing the same or more acceleration at the higher rev range where peak is hp is present.

The different sensation should not be confused with or equating a drop off unless such as seen on the dyno. HP is HP and you butt dynometer is perhaps the worst judge of acceleration.

BTW, Porsche knows and is perhaps the best at forced induction.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I wouldn’t agree with that assessment and that is contradictory to most every other review and how they feel. The s55 feels like it really runs out of steam above 5500 rpms. The turbo 911s feel stronger up top to redline and feel like they encourage doing so more. They are certainly a good bit faster too. The GTS itself is a low 11 second car with mid 120 mph trap speeds.
The Carrera turbo engines also beat the s55 for engine of the year for the size by large margin too. It’s sinply a better engine and feels less laggy to me. On top of that, the 911s actually sound good!

If you look at dyno charts of the 991.2 base, S, and GTS engine cars, you will see that peak torque occurs later than a f8x or other turbo cars. This could be done to better emulate a more linear power band. The question is how the car feels driving around in town in lower rpms, which TheGetawayer is saying the car feels choked.

No one is questioning the performance at wot. Engine seems to lack some character at lower rpms sustained driving and at the top end not peaking per this reviewer, who is quite the expansive porsche driver, see his videos. Most reviewers do not get into the details which is why I like this guy's reviews.

The sweet band of the S55 engine occurs around 4.5k rpm- 6.8k rpms. Try driving the s55 in this band on a roll. I do know what you mean, I had an N54 and that single turbo engine did quit way too early, basically no point in shifting at redline.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

If you look at dyno charts of the 991.2 base, S, and GTS engine cars, you will see that peak torque occurs later than a f8x or other turbo cars. This could be done to better emulate a more linear power band. The question is how the car feels driving around in town in lower rpms, which TheGetawayer is saying the car feels choked.

No one is questioning the performance at wot. Engine seems to lack some character at lower rpms sustained driving and at the top end not peaking per this reviewer, who is quite the expansive porsche driver, see his videos. Most reviewers do not get into the details which is why I like this guy's reviews.

The sweet band of the S55 engine occurs around 4.5k rpm- 6.8k rpms. Try driving the s55 in this band on a roll. I do know what you mean, I had an N54 and that single turbo engine did quit way too early, basically no point in shifting at redline.

The power curve on the 991.2S is phenomenal and just about perfect for street application. Porsche knows what they are doing with turbos. We used to use stand alone fuel management systems and this flat power curve was what we shoot for street.

This is the 991.2 S dyno. This thing is putting down 382 hp and 376 torque at the wheel. Factory rates it at 420 hp and 368 torque at the crank.

The second chart shows a comparison to the 991.1.

These things run great times 0 -60 so obviously the power cruve is pretty sweet.

[shortseller]

^ The N54 had two small turbos, I think you might be referring to the N55 which was a single scroll turbo?

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by shortseller

^ The N54 had two small turbos, I think you might be referring to the N55 which was a single scroll turbo?

I am referring to the N54, my bad if I got the turbos wrong.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

The power curve on the 991.2S is phenomenal and just about perfect for street application. Porsche knows what they are doing with turbos. We used to use stand alone fuel management systems and this flat power curve was what we shoot for street.

This is the 991.2 S dyno. This thing is putting down 382 hp and 376 torque at the wheel. Factory rates it at 420 hp and 368 torque at the crank.

The second chart shows a comparison to the 991.1.

These things run great times 0 -60 so obviously the power cruve is pretty sweet.

I am not referring to the engine's capabilities. I am just commenting on the reviewers opinions regarding the turbo's power delivery at city street speeds.

I would want to find out for myself before spending 143k (my optimal spec).

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I am not referring to the engine's capabilities. I am just commenting on the reviewers opinions regarding the turbo's power delivery at city street speeds.

I would want to find out for myself before spending 143k (my optimal spec).

My charts won't post for whatever reason. Dealer gave me a 17 GTS Targa with about 4k miles on it to drive a few few days while ordering my chalk 991.2 Turbo. The GTS was a beast even in Targa form.

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I am referring to the N54, my bad if I got the turbos wrong.

I had an N54, you're right, going much beyond about 5500 RPMs unless you had a tune was kind of a waste as torque didn't go much higher. But what a great tunable platform, the N54 came out of Germany with potential left on the table and kinda underpowered I always felt.

[SeanWRT]

Downgrading from 991.2 to M4 would be the dumbest car thing you ever could do.

Change your attitude. 911 IS a daily sports car. You can afford it then commute with it.

You don't always have more stuff than a 911 can carry to work, do you?

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Downgrading from 991.2 to M4 would be the dumbest car thing you ever could do.

Change your attitude. 911 IS a daily sports car. You can afford it then commute with it.

You don't always have more stuff than a 911 can carry to work, do you?

This is a super old thread but family considerations can rule out a 911

I have a 991.1S I will be getting rid of, and have replaced it and my x5 dd with a new f80. I like it, definitely don’t love it. It drives nothing like my 911, doesn’t handle nearly as well and sounds 1000x worse.

It’s a great do it all car, and if you want 4 door euro car with a manual, it’s pretty much the only game in town.

I hope to keep my m3 as a dd and add another 911 in the future when. I can afford both. For now, with one kid and another on the way, the m3 is a better family and cautious financial choice.

I’m sure that’s the same for many.

[instarand]

Originally Posted by Harroldv

Currently facing a difficult decision, looking for some insight from M3/M4 owners.

I have a 2016 Porsche 991.2 Carrera S which i enjoy to drive ... but i don't drive it as much because i can't go to work with that car and i almost always take my X3 when i'm going away with luggage.

Ever since the E46 M3 i've been in love with the M3 cars. It's practical, fun to drive, and it's a lower profile car than a 911 so i could drive to work and have more use of it.

Ideally i get rid of my X3, keep the Porsche and get an M3 but financially it would be a lot more to lay down and in winter i'm glad with the X3 as a daily and the xdrive.

I'm really torn to let go of my 911 and get an M3 which i could use more and even daily, but a 911 is a different league.

Are there people who have made the switch or have testdriven a 991.2 and were happy to get back in their M3?

Thanks for your opinions ?

If your 911 is a 2016 its a first gen (991.1). Second gen started in 2017. Is your 911 a 3.0 Turbo or a 3.8 NA?

I had a 997.2 C2S and sold for a '18 F80 since I couldn't fit a rear facing car seat and the wife in the 911 at the same time. I would've basically never driven the 911.

The F80 is perfect for my situation, possibly yours too. It's big enough to be decently practical, it's fast as hell and is fun to drive. In winter it'll be fine with winter tires but it's certainly going to struggle in ice and snow vs an AWD.

If you aren't interested in a manual transmission (what!!) you should consider the soon to be AUDI RS5 Sportback. It's probably not quite as raw as the F80 but it's fast, sporty, AWD, and practical with 4 doors and a hatch back - though still has the sedan look to it.

[Darth One]

Why are we bumping his old thread? Forum doesn't have enough BMW vs Porsche fights?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Downgrading from 991.2 to M4 would be the dumbest car thing you ever could do.

Change your attitude. 911 IS a daily sports car. You can afford it then commute with it.

You don't always have more stuff than a 911 can carry to work, do you?

That's a bit of an oversimplified statement.

My 911 lives on a trickle charger because it's a bit tiring to drive daily in traffic due to the stupidly loud exhaust and tricky clutch, not to mention the annoyance of dings and scrapes, and occasional hatorade from random people.

Better answer is to keep the sports car for sports activities and a separate commuter car for commuting grind

911 are great and can be used in many situations, but having an M3 sedan that blends in and has more daily driving usability is good sense for people who absolutely must have only 1 car, for whatever reason

[uniqueMR]

911 rules

[THEROK]

Akin to going from a Patek to a Rolex, a Rolex for an Omega. All nice, but we know the stack ranking.

[Harroldv]

Originally Posted by instarand

If your 911 is a 2016 its a first gen (991.1). Second gen started in 2017. Is your 911 a 3.0 Turbo or a 3.8 NA?

I had a 997.2 C2S and sold for a '18 F80 since I couldn't fit a rear facing car seat and the wife in the 911 at the same time. I would've basically never driven the 911.

The F80 is perfect for my situation, possibly yours too. It's big enough to be decently practical, it's fast as hell and is fun to drive. In winter it'll be fine with winter tires but it's certainly going to struggle in ice and snow vs an AWD.

If you aren't interested in a manual transmission (what!!) you should consider the soon to be AUDI RS5 Sportback. It's probably not quite as raw as the F80 but it's fast, sporty, AWD, and practical with 4 doors and a hatch back - though still has the sedan look to it.

Hi, it's one of the first 991.2's, delivered in 11/2016.

I've kept my 911 and am planning to get a new DD as my 911 only really comes out during weekends.

It still is an amazing car, timeless design and sportscar from the ground up. Always a special feeling driving it.

The 3.0 biturbo is a great engine with more punch thanks to the turbo's but it does miss some NA sound and the turbo whistle sometimes gets annoying when driving with the sunroof open.

But still, 911 remains a true sportscar and a real gem to drive.