Competition Package - Yes or No?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Everyone knows this but me!

And me. I was being a sarcastic douche

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

And me. I was being a sarcastic douche

But what's our opinion against hundreds of others.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

But what's our opinion against hundreds of others.

The correct one. Haha

[eRocks]

I originally ordered an F80 without the ZCP. When it came in, it had some damage and I declined delivery after they didn't handle the repair correctly. So I went found a similar spec car. The one I found had everything I wanted plus the ZCP. It was a blessing in disguise because I LOVE everything about the ZCP. The exhaust note, the suspension, the wheels (the black 666ms), and of course the idea of the extra power. If you have the choice, get the ZCP, you will kick yourself if you don't.

[jhonggggg]

Just got one, totally worth it!

[speedmaster20d]

I love the torque delivery of my '18 ZCP M3.

At first I didn't want the 20" 666 wheels because of ride quality concerns but now I am really glad I went with the 666 and the 19's. They are the best looking M3 wheels to date IMO when you put them next to the 19' there is just no comparison. they just look unique, sophisticated and light, the 19's look like any other car. The ride isn't bad at all with the suspension set to comfort, drove over pot holes speed bump etc. yes you can feel it but not bad at all.

[DML]

Originally Posted by speedmaster20d

I love the torque delivery of my '18 ZCP M3.

At first I didn't want the 20" 666 wheels because of ride quality concerns but now I am really glad I went with the 666 and the 19's. They are the best looking M3 wheels to date IMO when you put them next to the 19' there is just no comparison. they just look unique, sophisticated and light, the 19's look like any other car. The ride isn't bad at all with the suspension set to comfort, drove over pot holes speed bump etc. yes you can feel it but not bad at all.

My ZCP is equipped with 19' 437's, wasn't sold on the 666'ers because of the obvious...20 inches. Although aesthetically they have grown on me, especially the black. Please stop trashing my 437"s

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by DML

My ZCP is equipped with 19' 437's, wasn't sold on the 666'ers because of the obvious...20 inches. Although aesthetically they have grown on me, especially the black. Please stop trashing my 437"s

My M4 ZCP is equipped with 437s as well. I don't like the look of 20" rims, I don't like the way 20" rims ride or drive and I don't particularly like the looks of the 666s. But there are obviously many who like 20" rims and the 666s and I am glad the BMW gives us choices.

[THEROK]

The market has spoken.

The diamond gray/black triple 6s are some of highest in demand BMW OEM wheels I've ever run across so to cast aspersion claiming it's a "heavy" wheel is pure ignorance because it isn't. It's about being light and strong via legit forging both of which BMW/Fuchs has achieved and delivered. Even Porsche 991 GT3 wheels are in a similar weight range.

It's just too bad there's no easy way to quantify stiffness/strength to the plebeians who struggle with even elementary knowledge.

[jlhymb]

Originally Posted by THEROK

The market has spoken.

The diamond gray/black triple 6s are some of highest in demand BMW OEM wheels I've ever run across so to cast aspersion claiming it's a "heavy" wheel is pure ignorance because it isn't. It's about being light and strong via legit forging both of which BMW/Fuchs has achieved and delivered. Even Porsche 991 GT3 wheels are in a similar weight range.

It's just too bad there's no easy way to quantify stiffness/strength to the plebeians who struggle with even elementary knowledge.

The 666 is heavier than the 437.

[EricSMG]

The dark 666s are one of the most high end/crisp/original wheel designs ever to exist. They change the look of the car entirely. The F80 is a big car with big wheel wells and so it needs big wheels to look balanced - the 19s just make the cut here but barely.

You may not like them, which I get, but the car pops way harder in the flesh than it does with the very subdued, yet handsome, 437s. The ride quality IS pretty borderline with the 666s, though. There is no way I could live with them if we had bad roads. Even city/rough side streets are bad. Can't imagine the 437s being MUCH better but no doubt it's notable. I drove a car with the 18s and it was pretty good in the comfort department but it looked positively plain-jane. Non-starter for me.

But I will say that the traction and response of the ZCP/666/OE PSS setup is incredible. I can fling this thing down a tight canyon run, using 100% of the motor in MDM mode and the car has virtually no slip from either end. And the response to steering inputs is sublime - the car reacts immediately and defines "on rails" with absolutely zero front/rear phase delay. It is SO GOOD.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

The dark 666s are one of the most high end/crisp/original wheel designs ever to exist. They change the look of the car entirely. The F80 is a big car with big wheel wells and so it needs big wheels to look balanced - the 19s just make the cut here but barely.

You may not like them, which I get, but the car pops way harder in the flesh than it does with the very subdued, yet handsome, 437s. The ride quality IS pretty borderline with the 666s, though. There is no way I could live with them if we had bad roads. Even city/rough side streets are bad. Can't imagine the 437s being MUCH better but no doubt it's notable. I drove a car with the 18s and it was pretty good in the comfort department but it looked positively plain-jane. Non-starter for me.

But I will say that the traction and response of the ZCP/666/OE PSS setup is incredible. I can fling this thing down a tight canyon run, using 100% of the motor in MDM mode and the car has virtually no slip from either end. And the response to steering inputs is sublime - the car reacts immediately and defines "on rails" with absolutely zero front/rear phase delay. It is SO GOOD.

If you are driving at the limits (or think you are) if the car feels like it is "on rails" you aren't going fast enough. At the limits the car is sliding. I do not recommend doing this on public roads. The problem with tires that have too low a profile and not enough sidewall is that the stiff sidewalls do not allow enough slip angle for maximum grip and that when they do lose grip they tend to do so suddenly and unpredictably. So while you may be getting the "on rails" feeling due to crisp turn in that crisp turn in is at the expense of grip.


Good explanation of slip angle here:

http://www.racershq.com/intro7/

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If you are driving at the limits (or think you are) if the car feels like it is "on rails" you aren't going fast enough. At the limits the car is sliding. I do not recommend doing this on public roads. The problem with tires that have too low a profile and not enough sidewall is that the stiff sidewalls do not allow enough slip angle for maximum grip and that when they do lose grip they tend to do so suddenly and unpredictably. So while you may be getting the "on rails" feeling due to crisp turn in that crisp turn in is at the expense of grip.


Good explanation of slip angle here:

http://www.racershq.com/intro7/

So you're saying that since one should not be driving fast enough on the street to enter the slip angle zone, there is zero handling benefit of the 19s over the 20s. Got it, thanks for confirming my choice to go with the 666s

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

I said "virtually" no slip. When it does slip it is extremely predictable and confidence inspiring. Further, it slips neutrally, allowing me to pivot the car exactly as I please.

The problem with your thought process is that you think in black and white terms. A taller sidewall may be better at the limit but it doesn't mean the shorter sidewall can't also be extremely good. I am not saying the 20" setup is better than the 19" setup (which is what you heard). Rather, I'm saying the 20" setup combined with the ZCP tuning is a fantastically good handling road car.

And save the lecture about public roads. You have no idea the kind of roads I'm driving on.

An M4 with 18s, 19s or 20s is an extremely capable car that the vast majority of drivers (myself included) never take to the limits. You are always in the slip angle zone although at lower speeds the slip angle may be very low. If you are interested in pursuing the vehicle dynamics of high performance or race driving there are certainly better sources of information than me. There is good info available on the internet and there are a number of high performance driving schools such as Skip Barber, Bondurant and Bertil Roos.


My comment about public roads was a comment not a lecture and was not directed at you or anyone in particular. I don't know you and quite frankly not only do I not know what kind of roads you drive on or how you drive on them I don't care as that is your business not mine. I assume you are driving responsibly because I have no reason to believe otherwise.

In any case I am glad you are enjoying your M. I certainly have enjoyed mine.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Eh, you contradict yourself. First you say I'm not driving fast enough then you say I shouldn't be driving that fast. You don't know anything about what I'm doing, the roads I'm driving on, my skill level, etc.

I said "virtually" no slip. When it does slip it is extremely predictable and confidence inspiring. Further, it slips neutrally, allowing me to pivot the car exactly as I please.

The problem with your thought process is that you think in black and white terms. A taller sidewall may be better at the limit but it doesn't mean the shorter sidewall can't also be extremely good. I am not saying the 20" setup is better than the 19" setup (which is what you heard). Rather, I'm saying the 20" setup combined with the ZCP tuning is a fantastically good handling road car.

If you understand the concept of "slip angle" you will realize that it has nothing to do with slip but refers to the angle of the rim as opposed to the angle of the contact patch.

Whether I understand your skill level or not is irrelevant. The issue would be whether you understand your skill level - and I am not implying that you do or do not as I do not know you.

I will say this about my own skill level. After many sessions with the Skip Barber Racing School and ten years after joining the Lime Rock Drivers Club which gives me 50 track days a year with the best driving coaches available I have come to realize that I am a much better driver than I was and nowhere near as good a driver as I used to like I think I was.

[EricSMG]

Ha, we got caught in edit twilight zone.^^

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by jlhymb

The 666 is heavier than the 437.

This guy plebeians

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If you are driving at the limits (or think you are) if the car feels like it is "on rails" you aren't going fast enough. At the limits the car is sliding. I do not recommend doing this on public roads. The problem with tires that have too low a profile and not enough sidewall is that the stiff sidewalls do not allow enough slip angle for maximum grip and that when they do lose grip they tend to do so suddenly and unpredictably. So while you may be getting the "on rails" feeling due to crisp turn in that crisp turn in is at the expense of grip.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If you understand the concept of "slip angle" you will realize that it has nothing to do with slip but refers to the angle of the rim as opposed to the angle of the contact patch.

I think you may be confusing the two.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

An M4 with 18s, 19s or 20s is an extremely capable car that the vast majority of drivers (myself included) never take to the limits.

Agreed - I never said I was driving at the limit. Just that at a very aggressive street pace it's DAMN good and glued to the road which is really saying a lot given how much power this car has. The fact that I can use all of the motor on a canyon run really says something about how they tuned the suspension.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Ha, we got caught in edit twilight zone.^^

Twilight zone or not I am always happy to hear from other enthusiasts! I always try to listen to and respect the opinions of those who do not necessarily agree with me or see things the same way I do and I understand that there are those who are as smart (or smarter) than me or as knowledgeable (or more knowledgeable) than me who have seen the same things that I have and come to different conclusions. I encourage and respect their opinions. If you surround yourself with and only listen to people who agree with you you will never learnt anything.


Are you a member of MGruppe. It is a great organization. I may be biases as I am the New York Metro/New England Regional Director.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by pheerIx

This guy plebeians

"The Market" has spoken about a lot of things. "The Market" apparently thinks that Kanye West is a talented musician which is one of the reasons that I think the only thing "The Market" determines is what sells and other than that "The Market" tends to be clueless.

[DML]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

My M4 ZCP is equipped with 437s as well. I don't like the look of 20" rims, I don't like the way 20" rims ride or drive and I don't particularly like the looks of the 666s. But there are obviously many who like 20" rims and the 666s and I am glad the BMW gives us choices.

Captain! Chop again....Why not a set of 666 in 19's? Would that of been so difficult?? Just purchased one of those Faraday pouches from amazon, thoughts? BTW noticed you went Tanzanite this trip, so unlike the Captain!

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by DML

Captain! Chop again....Why not a set of 666 in 19's? Would that of been so difficult?? Just purchased one of those Faraday pouches from amazon, thoughts? BTW noticed you went Tanzanite this trip, so unlike the Captain!

I was not aware that 666 rims were available in 19" and I did not see that (19" 666 rims) as an option when I ordered my car. If they had been available I still would not have ordered then because I don't care for the way they look.

Why do you think Tanzanite is so "Unlike the Captain"?