OE brake pads or Akebono?

[tgb1974]

My F83 will soon need new brake pads. Having read the posts about the less dusty Akebono option, I was ready to get those until I saw that they are also spec'd for the F3x. I know that the OE pads for the F8x are specific to the F8x, so I now I am leaning back to going OE and living with the extra dust.

Thoughts/suggestions? Thanks!

[M3SQRD]

Brake pads are manufactured by FMSI number. The F3x and F8x use the same caliper and, therefore, the same pad FMSI number. So, based on the FEMCI number, pads will be listed as working on all cars that use this same number such as f2x, f3x, f8x and f87. Pads in the US are labeled with cold bite and hot bite letters which defines their coefficient of friction. There are only a few pads on the market that offers considerably less dust, similar initial bite and similar or better overall braking performance. BMW uses pads that have extremely high initial bite and, IMO, it is unnecessarily high. This gives people the false feeling of great braking performance. Brake pad performance/feel is different for different people. Ceramic pads tend to be low dust but have low performance or temperature tolerance.

[jfritz27]

It really all depends on how you drive the car. I track the car, but mostly drive like a granny on the street (particularly when it comes to braking -- I may indulge in some throttle-stomping when pulling out from time to time), so for me, Akebonos are a good fit for my street use.

[tgb1974]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Brake pads are manufactured by FMSI number. The F3x and F8x use the same caliper and, therefore, the same pad FMSI number. So, based on the FEMCI number, pads will be listed as working on all cars that use this same number such as f2x, f3x, f8x and f87. Pads in the US are labeled with cold bite and hot bite letters which defines their coefficient of friction. There are only a few pads on the market that offers considerably less dust, similar initial bite and similar or better overall braking performance. BMW uses pads that have extremely high initial bite and, IMO, it is unnecessarily high. This gives people the false feeling of great braking performance. Brake pad performance/feel is different for different people. Ceramic pads tend to be low dust but have low performance or temperature tolerance.

This is extremely helpful. Thank you. I drive my F83 year-round in the Chicago area (obviously with winter tires when appropriate), and I only drive it for street use (no track, etc.). What do you recommend? The brake dust is totally annoying but not so annoying that I would exchange less dust for low performance. I appreciate your advice.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by tgb1974

This is extremely helpful. Thank you. I drive my F83 year-round in the Chicago area (obviously with winter tires when appropriate), and I only drive it for street use (no track, etc.). What do you recommend? The brake dust is totally annoying but not so annoying that I would exchange less dust for low performance. I appreciate your advice.

Basically, you’re the typical M owner that wants a brake pad that produces less brake dust and similar brake performance for a car with > 400 hp/torque. In order of increasing cost (low to high): EBC Green (no personal experience, occasional squeal/squeak, more dust than EBC Red but also more bite/performance, popular on g8x), Porterfield R4S (S is important because it means street whereas R4 is a track pad) and Carbotech 1521.

[tgb1974]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Basically, you’re the typical M owner that wants a brake pad that produces less brake dust and similar brake performance for a car with > 400 hp/torque. In order of increasing cost (low to high): EBC Yellow (no personal experience, occasional squeal/squeak, more dust than EBC Red but also more bite/performance, popular on g8x), Porterfield R4S (S is important because it means street whereas R4 is a track pad) and Carbotech 1521.

You are a brake oracle, sir. Carbotechs it will be then. Do you recommend Carbotechs for the rear calipers as well, or do the rears not matter as much in your opinion?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by tgb1974

You are a brake oracle, sir. Carbotechs it will be then. Do you recommend Carbotechs for the rear calipers as well, or do the rears not matter as much in your opinion?

If it’s to keep dust down, I’d run them on both. If you’re not concerned about rear dust then either option would be fine for the rear. No safety issue with running different pad compounds front and rear. Brake balance won’t be affected by much at all. DSC also should be fine with the front-rear difference in pad compounds. On track, although with DSC off, I sometimes run a more aggressive rear pad to help shift the brake balance a little rearward.

[tgb1974]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

If it’s to keep dust down, I’d run them on both. If you’re not concerned about rear dust then either option would be fine for the rear. No safety issue with running different pad compounds front and rear. Brake balance won’t be affected by much at all. DSC also should be fine with the front-rear difference in pad compounds. On track, although with DSC off, I sometimes run a more aggressive rear pad to help shift the brake balance a little rearward.

Thank you, will do!

[tgb1974]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

If it’s to keep dust down, I’d run them on both. If you’re not concerned about rear dust then either option would be fine for the rear. No safety issue with running different pad compounds front and rear. Brake balance won’t be affected by much at all. DSC also should be fine with the front-rear difference in pad compounds. On track, although with DSC off, I sometimes run a more aggressive rear pad to help shift the brake balance a little rearward.

One other question. In your experience, do the Carbotechs have similar "bite" as the OEM pads? I'm assuming they're most expensive for a reason. Thanks.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by tgb1974

One other question. In your experience, do the Carbotechs have similar "bite" as the OEM pads? I'm assuming they're most expensive for a reason. Thanks.

They have a solid initial bite but not nearly as aggressive as oem. I personally find the oem pad to have an overly aggressive initial bite that’s similar to an entry level track pad. I’d conservative estimate the CT 1521 compound initial bite is ~80-90% of the oem initial bite (it’s been a couple of years since I’ve used oem pads, the last time I tried running oem M4 pads in our 240ix - M pads have more initial bite than non-M pads!). I have yet to find a true street pad that has the same initial bite as oem.

[gunsmoker]

I don't find the OEM brakes' initial bite overly strong. Prior to my F80 I had an Audi A4 with S4 calipers and pads and when I bought the F80 I was a bit disappointed by the breaking response in comparison with my previous setup. I have RS29 for tracking and I love them - the performance is intoxicating. I drive with them in the streets in the summer but the squeal is hard to bear. Last year I put EBC Yellow Stuff on after my last track event since my OEMs were done. I can say that the Yellow stuff is tuned at the edge of the acceptable performance with regards to the squeal because they would squeal lightly when cold, but barely noticeable. Better street bite than OEM and maybe a tad less dust, but hard to quantify. I intend to take them to my first track event this year to see how they work hot. I doubt they will match the RS29 performance, but may be a reasonable compromise for my occasional tracking.

[M3SQRD]

gunsmoker

What pads were you using in your s4 calipers? How do the piston areas on the a4 calipers and s4 calipers compare?

Pad preferences are different for different people. However, BMW M cars are notoriously known for having pads with a very strong initial bite to the point of being extremely “grabby” in stop-and-go traffic. If your f80 did not have this characteristic, it’s likely due to your pads being glazed. Many owners complain about loudly squealing brakes, especially between ~10 mph and a complete stop, on oem pads and I haven’t experienced it once in 30 years of owning M3/M4s as well as several non-Ms. Only thing I can think of is improper bedding of the pads. Initial bite and overall braking performance are greatly influenced by proper/improper bedding.

I got the yellow mixed up with their red and green compounds. Yellow is actually a very aggressive street compound and, as you stated correctly, with a lot of dust and noise. It’s the red, and if available green, compounds are their street performance pads but red is ceramic so their upper temperature limit isn’t very high. Yellow won’t perform well on track compared to a true track/race compound like your pagids. I’d be surprised if they didn’t fade on track. I run PFC 11 exclusively for track (although I have PFC 39’s but haven’t used them yet) in my e92 M3s (PFC brake kit) and f82 (Essex/AP Racing brake kit). No comparison in initial bite between BMW oem and PFC 11.

[N1rve]

Originally Posted by tgb1974

My F83 will soon need new brake pads. Having read the posts about the less dusty Akebono option, I was ready to get those until I saw that they are also spec'd for the F3x. I know that the OE pads for the F8x are specific to the F8x, so I now I am leaning back to going OE and living with the extra dust.

Thoughts/suggestions? Thanks!

I have the Akebono Brake Pads on my F80 for the past 2 years. I don't track my car but I do drive spirited so it's enough for my needs. You lose that initial hard grab from the OE Brakes but all you need to do is apply more brake pedal and it'll still come to a complete stop. Brake pads are still aggressive enough to lock the brakes and have ABS come on.

The lack of brake dust is night and day. I can literally go weeks and weeks and it's not caked in brown dust. The body and windows of my car gets dirtier than my wheels do. They are also silent and don't have any squeal or squeak.

I've never had an issue where I wish I had a more aggressive brake pad. I only run MPS4S which affect brake distance more than the brake pads.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by N1rve

I have the Akebono Brake Pads on my F80 for the past 2 years. I don't track my car but I do drive spirited so it's enough for my needs. You lose that initial hard grab from the OE Brakes but all you need to do is apply more brake pedal and it'll still come to a complete stop. Brake pads are still aggressive enough to lock the brakes and have ABS come on.

The lack of brake dust is night and day. I can literally go weeks and weeks and it's not caked in brown dust. The body and windows of my car gets dirtier than my wheels do. They are also silent and don't have any squeal or squeak.

I've never had an issue where I wish I had a more aggressive brake pad. I only run MPS4S which affect brake distance more than the brake pads.

Correct. Tire grip determines stopping distance. However, pad characteristics, such as initial bite, cold bite, hot bite, modulation, release, thermal capacity/fade resistance, pad wear rate, rotor wear rate, are still important for most drivers regardless of stopping distance. Ceramic pads typically have a peak mu around 200 F and then it continually drops off with increasing temperature until they fade. I prefer a street pad that won’t fade after a single street panic stop and allows at least four-five street panic stops before fading starts to occur.

[DocL]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Correct. Tire grip determines stopping distance. However, pad characteristics, such as initial bite, cold bite, hot bite, modulation, release, thermal capacity/fade resistance, pad wear rate, rotor wear rate, are still important for most drivers regardless of stopping distance. Ceramic pads typically have a peak mu around 200 F and then it continually drops off with increasing temperature until they fade. I prefer a street pad that won’t fade after a single street panic stop and allows at least four-five street panic stops before fading starts to occur.

If you have to do "at least four-five stree panic stops" on the stree in a row, you are the problem, not the pads lol.

I've been using the Akebono pads for approx 30k miles, with a few track days. They do tend to fade a bit earlier than the OEM pads, but I just go in a little eary and let them cool off. I also love how there is almost no dust.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by DocL

If you have to do "at least four-five stree panic stops" on the stree in a row, you are the problem, not the pads lol.

I've been using the Akebono pads for approx 30k miles, with a few track days. They do tend to fade a bit earlier than the OEM pads, but I just go in a little eary and let them cool off. I also love how there is almost no dust.

Haha. Trust me, I’m not the problem. So you’re comfortable using a pad that overheats on one moderately hard stop? That may be sufficient for you but I prefer a much higher thermal threshold. It’s sad if someone thinks a pad with a peak CoF at 200 F and then has a continuous rapid drop off in CoF as the temperature continues to increase isn’t the problem. Good luck if you have to make two hard stops back to back.

If you can’t fade stock and ceramic pads on track after one hot lap then clearly you aren’t even remotely even pushing. I can go through a set of DS2500 29 mm thick pads in one track day. Only reason I used them was to prove to novice track guys that loved the pad and didn’t believe me when I told them I’d destroy the pads in one day. They’re using an 18 mm thick version and they don’t even use 1/8th of the pad thickness in one day.

Here’s the brake dust on my wheels from a street performance semi-metallic pad after close to 500 miles:

[DThr33]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Here’s the brake dust on my wheels from a street performance semi-metallic pad after close to 500 miles:

what pads were you using here? I was considering the akebonos for the low dust (and also because they're comparatively dirt cheap so not much lost in trying them out) but didn't realise they'd fade so quick

[dms-01]

If you are simply street driving your car you will be fine with Akebono. I have had them or power stop of both my f80s, my wife'sGLA45 and her GLC63 with no issues whatsoever.

Why anyone run them on the track I don't know but do with that what you will.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by DThr33

what pads were you using here? I was considering the akebonos for the low dust (and also because they're comparatively dirt cheap so not much lost in trying them out) but didn't realise they'd fade so quick

Carbotech 1521 or G-LOC GS-1 (same compound). These will work well on twisty and mountain roads but are not for use on track. Cobalt XR5 is another good street pad option.

[BigFatRaccoon]

Originally Posted by N1rve

I have the Akebono Brake Pads on my F80 for the past 2 years. I don't track my car but I do drive spirited so it's enough for my needs. You lose that initial hard grab from the OE Brakes but all you need to do is apply more brake pedal and it'll still come to a complete stop. Brake pads are still aggressive enough to lock the brakes and have ABS come on.

The lack of brake dust is night and day. I can literally go weeks and weeks and it's not caked in brown dust. The body and windows of my car gets dirtier than my wheels do. They are also silent and don't have any squeal or squeak.

I've never had an issue where I wish I had a more aggressive brake pad. I only run MPS4S which affect brake distance more than the brake pads.

Thanks for your data point. I might end up swapping to Akebono pads F+R, they're like $160-180 for a set of 4 with sensors off Rock Auto or FCP.