New to tracking the M4 - nanny controls

[Monkey Throttle]

Hey Folks,

I'm just wondering how some, many or all of you are negotiating with your MDM and traction controls?
I was at Willow Springs on Saturday driving the M4 for the first time (entirely stock) and started the day in "Sport" and ended the day in "Sport +" I don't think I entirely eliminated all nanny controls at any point. Of course it choked me a bit but might have also kept me out of trouble.

My question is, are most of you track guys running with ZERO TC or MDM? When did you feel comfortable eliminating those functions? Do you find the car to be very manageable without them?

I have a lot of track experience and considerable racing experience but mostly in lower horsepower cars. Used to race the regional series with Skip Barber in Formula 2000. My previous track car was a 282hp 993 911. So the jump to a track car that is 440hp (ZCT) is a considerable difference.

I'm just wondering how the other M4 track crew thinks about or entirely eliminates MDM and TC... Or is it an insurance policy that you'd rather keep on?
Or track/condition dependent?

[NYG]

If you have track/racing experience then turn that shit off. I despised MDM more than TC on (except in the wet). The F8x is one of the most driver friendly cars I've ever been in - it's so ridiculously forgiving. Run your steering in comfort (sport and sport+ makes it a lot more twitchy and likely to oversteer on turn in).

There's some tracks where it just makes sense to leave it on, especially if you aren't competing. Palmer would be one of them here. If the tracks you frequent have good run off, I'd run TC off exclusively.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

Hey Folks,

I'm just wondering how some, many or all of you are negotiating with your MDM and traction controls?
I was at Willow Springs on Saturday driving the M4 for the first time (entirely stock) and started the day in "Sport" and ended the day in "Sport +" I don't think I entirely eliminated all nanny controls at any point. Of course it choked me a bit but might have also kept me out of trouble.

My question is, are most of you track guys running with ZERO TC or MDM? When did you feel comfortable eliminating those functions? Do you find the car to be very manageable without them?

I have a lot of track experience and considerable racing experience but mostly in lower horsepower cars. Used to race the regional series with Skip Barber in Formula 2000. My previous track car was a 282hp 993 911. So the jump to a track car that is 440hp (ZCT) is a considerable difference.

I'm just wondering how the other M4 track crew thinks about or entirely eliminates MDM and TC... Or is it an insurance policy that you'd rather keep on?
Or track/condition dependent?

Ditto above, hold the TC button down and turn it off for the most part. It sounds like you are a much better driver than I and I run with it off.

WSIR has lots of runoff and is hard on the brakes, so you don't want TC using them at all. The F8X is well balanced near 50/50 so you should be able to manage given your experience.

I like to program the M2 button for TC off, sport steering, sport or sport + chassis, sport throttle, and DCT level 2 for smoother shifting.

Have you been frequenting this season? What color is your M4, maybe I've seen you around?

[Monkey Throttle]

Originally Posted by jmg

Ditto above, hold the TC button down and turn it off for the most part. It sounds like you are a much better driver than I and I run with it off.

WSIR has lots of runoff and is hard on the brakes, so you don't want TC using them at all. The F8X is well balanced near 50/50 so you should be able to manage given your experience.

I like to program the M2 button for TC off, sport steering, sport or sport + chassis, sport throttle, and DCT level 2 for smoother shifting.

Have you been frequenting this season? What color is your M4, maybe I've seen you around?

I just picked up the M4 a month ago so this past Saturday was my first event in the M4. I haven't had the 993 911 on the track for nearly a decade.

I'm running a Mineral Gray Metallic in the instructors group (think it was green group.) I'll be doing a lot of events moving forward though. That's why I got the M4!

I guess on Saturday, I didn't want to be that guy in the instructor group that couldn't keep his new car pointing in the right direction. So I played it safe. I was also trying to figure out tire temps on my street setup which I badly screwed up in the morning. I needed a lot more air in the tires than I was using. I bumped my cold tire from 28-34 by the end of the day. We live and we learn. lol.

With the engine mapping, I'm still trying to figure out what I like. I'm running a 3 pedal manual. So if I leave it in sport, it auto blips, which is cute, BUT, I like me some good-old-fashioned heel-n-toe downshifting. In Sport+ the auto blipping is eliminated. I'm still playing with both to see if either gives me more enjoyment. But I'm thinking Sport+ with heel n toe.

What event are you going to next?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

I just picked up the M4 a month ago so this past Saturday was my first event in the M4. I haven't had the 993 911 on the track for nearly a decade.

I'm running a Mineral Gray Metallic in the instructors group (think it was green group.) I'll be doing a lot of events moving forward though. That's why I got the M4!

I guess on Saturday, I didn't want to be that guy in the instructor group that couldn't keep his new car pointing in the right direction. So I played it safe. I was also trying to figure out tire temps on my street setup which I badly screwed up in the morning. I needed a lot more air in the tires than I was using. I bumped my cold tire from 28-34 by the end of the day. We live and we learn. lol.

With the engine mapping, I'm still trying to figure out what I like. I'm running a 3 pedal manual. So if I leave it in sport, it auto blips, which is cute, BUT, I like me some good-old-fashioned heel-n-toe downshifting. In Sport+ the auto blipping is eliminated. I'm still playing with both to see if either gives me more enjoyment. But I'm thinking Sport+ with heel n toe.

What event are you going to next?

Ahh I see, I thought you typoed DCT in your original post. I believe there is a way to code out the throttle blip, but I'm not 100% sure.

The M4 is a relatively heavy car compared to your 993. Tires are easily roasted at WISR especially without camber. My street MP4S only lasted two days without camber dialed in.

I just got back from Laguna and I'm trying to go to Sonoma on 7/26. I haven't signed up for anything in between, but I go to Adams Friday nights for time attack as often as I can. I'll probably sign up for Streets if one is coming up. The M3CS just needs some adjustments before I head out again.

[melanthius]

Originally Posted by jmg

Ahh I see, I thought you typoed DCT in your original post. I believe there is a way to code out the throttle blip, but I'm not 100% sure.

The M4 is a relatively heavy car compared to your 993. Tires are easily roasted at WISR especially without camber. My street MP4S only lasted two days without camber dialed in.

I just got back from Laguna and I'm trying to go to Sonoma on 7/26. I haven't signed up for anything in between, but I go to Adams Friday nights for time attack as often as I can. I'll probably sign up for Streets if one is coming up. The M3CS just needs some adjustments before I head out again.

Were you at Laguna 6/28 with NCRC?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by melanthius

Were you at Laguna 6/28 with NCRC?

No not that recent. 6/10 with Fast Toys and Apex.

[F80Speed77]

MDM is nice in the wet but it can be pretty invasive in the dry like most other vehicles these days.

[CanAutM3]

With all the experience you claim you have, I would definitely go full DSC off in the dry. The F8X chassis is a real pussy cat to handle and is very predictable. Even MDM is very intrusive at higher speeds as it progressively nears full DSC intervention levels as the speeds increase. I am about 1 sec/min lap faster with DSC off than with MDM. All that being said, I use MDM on a wet track as I prefer to have the safety net in the context of varying/unpredictable grip levels. But that’s just for additional safety, the F8X remains well mannered in the wet with DSC fully off.

As for the other settings, it is all about personal preferences. EDC in Sport+ unless it is an extremely bumpy track, then Sport it is. For the engine response setting, I prefer Sport+ as it is the most direct setting, Sport and particularly Efficient have some damping programmed into them, and I rather have my right foot dictate the power delivery and not the software. I like the steering in Sport+ for fast laps; when I am doodling and drifting around, I prefer Comfort.

As with all M3 before it, the F8X needs camber plates to optimize front tire wear, more so when using R-comp tires.

[Soul Coughing]

Originally Posted by NYG

If you have track/racing experience then turn that shit off. I despised MDM more than TC on (except in the wet). The F8x is one of the most driver friendly cars I've ever been in - it's so ridiculously forgiving. Run your steering in comfort (sport and sport+ makes it a lot more twitchy and likely to oversteer on turn in).

There's some tracks where it just makes sense to leave it on, especially if you aren't competing. Palmer would be one of them here. If the tracks you frequent have good run off, I'd run TC off exclusively.

I do not have nearly as much experience as basically all of you guys, but coming from low HP cars to this car is a learning experience. I actually did my first track day in the F80 at Palmer last fall, and took the advice of everyone I spoke to at Palmer and left it in MDM mode. Even with MDM on, I got the car completely sideways and nearly put it into the concrete wall - hitting the dirt and doing a tank slapper - on turn 10 going counterclockwise. It was a pucker moment and made me reassess the usefulness of driving aids.

[rmanm4]

Take TC off in a open area and learn the car....that said, this car with TC off can become unpredictable at times! Full TC is just wrong for this car as you will feel like your missing 200HP in first and second gear at times.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Soul Coughing

I do not have nearly as much experience as basically all of you guys, but coming from low HP cars to this car is a learning experience. I actually did my first track day in the F80 at Palmer last fall, and took the advice of everyone I spoke to at Palmer and left it in MDM mode. Even with MDM on, I got the car completely sideways and nearly put it into the concrete wall - hitting the dirt and doing a tank slapper - on turn 10 going counterclockwise. It was a pucker moment and made me reassess the usefulness of driving aids.

Turn 10 requires downhill braking, traction control wouldn't really do much to save you there unless you were past the apex and getting on too much power.

ESC/TC is very useful but the design intent of the system is focused public road driving not on track. If you continue to develop using the system, you'll set yourself back miles. I know those situations can hinder confidence but don't be put down by it. You won't improve unless these mistakes happen. You just need to evaluate exactly how it happened and how to prevent it. I'm glad you and the car avoided those barriers.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Soul Coughing

I do not have nearly as much experience as basically all of you guys, but coming from low HP cars to this car is a learning experience. I actually did my first track day in the F80 at Palmer last fall, and took the advice of everyone I spoke to at Palmer and left it in MDM mode. Even with MDM on, I got the car completely sideways and nearly put it into the concrete wall - hitting the dirt and doing a tank slapper - on turn 10 going counterclockwise. It was a pucker moment and made me reassess the usefulness of driving aids.

Almost putting the F8X into a wall with MDM . Overstating one's experience in the OP maybe... .???

[Soul Coughing]

Originally Posted by NYG

Turn 10 requires downhill braking, traction control wouldn't really do much to save you there unless you were past the apex and getting on too much power.

ESC/TC is very useful but the design intent of the system is focused public road driving not on track. If you continue to develop using the system, you'll set yourself back miles. I know those situations can hinder confidence but don't be put down by it. You won't improve unless these mistakes happen. You just need to evaluate exactly how it happened and how to prevent it. I'm glad you and the car avoided those barriers.

Wait, I was wrong, I was driving it clockwise, not counterclockwise. So I was going up hill, and coming onto the straight after turn 10 when the back end just came out - may have been too much throttle, or maybe my MPSS were not up to temp. I do appreciate the input and agree that I need to get back out to the track and gain back my confidence in myself and the car.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Soul Coughing

Wait, I was wrong, I was driving it clockwise, not counterclockwise. So I was going up hill, and coming onto the straight after turn 10 when the back end just came out - may have been too much throttle, or maybe my MPSS were not up to temp. I do appreciate the input and agree that I need to get back out to the track and gain back my confidence in myself and the car.

Did you get understeer going uphill and tried to correct with braking or sudden steering inputs? How were your pressures? My MPSS got real greasy above 36 PSI on the F8x. Got any data recorded? Would love to help you get an idea of what happened if you want - I'm sure all the guys here would help.

After my incident at Watkins Glen (total loss on my Z06), I'll probably take my time getting up to the limit of my new car. So believe me, I know how you must feel nearly going into those terrifying barriers at Palmer but at the end of the day as long as no one is hurt, car is insured or undamaged, you're only going to get better as a result.

You're in Jersey so you may want to consider NJMP as a really good track to turn all nannies off. That's where I plan on learning my car. Thunderbolt is a little better than Lightning but I don't like Tbolt.

[kyrix1st]

Believe or not, I have been driving all of my cars with TC off from day one as I hate not being able to feel the diff-lock from power cuts. Hell, some of them did not even have it (e.g. E36 M3 euro, 321ps).

Slap a set of 200TW track tires, turn TC off and you are good to go. For a start, I would set steering heaviness to comfort, throttle sensitivity to comfort/sport and EDC to sport+, easy to catch oversteer with these settings.

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

Hey Folks,

I'm just wondering how some, many or all of you are negotiating with your MDM and traction controls?
I was at Willow Springs on Saturday driving the M4 for the first time (entirely stock) and started the day in "Sport" and ended the day in "Sport +" I don't think I entirely eliminated all nanny controls at any point. Of course it choked me a bit but might have also kept me out of trouble.

My question is, are most of you track guys running with ZERO TC or MDM? When did you feel comfortable eliminating those functions? Do you find the car to be very manageable without them?

I have a lot of track experience and considerable racing experience but mostly in lower horsepower cars. Used to race the regional series with Skip Barber in Formula 2000. My previous track car was a 282hp 993 911. So the jump to a track car that is 440hp (ZCT) is a considerable difference.

I'm just wondering how the other M4 track crew thinks about or entirely eliminates MDM and TC... Or is it an insurance policy that you'd rather keep on?
Or track/condition dependent?

[Soul Coughing]

Originally Posted by NYG

Did you get understeer going uphill and tried to correct with braking or sudden steering inputs? How were your pressures? My MPSS got real greasy above 36 PSI on the F8x. Got any data recorded? Would love to help you get an idea of what happened if you want - I'm sure all the guys here would help.

After my incident at Watkins Glen (total loss on my Z06), I'll probably take my time getting up to the limit of my new car. So believe me, I know how you must feel nearly going into those terrifying barriers at Palmer but at the end of the day as long as no one is hurt, car is insured or undamaged, you're only going to get better as a result.

You're in Jersey so you may want to consider NJMP as a really good track to turn all nannies off. That's where I plan on learning my car. Thunderbolt is a little better than Lightning but I don't like Tbolt.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

I was getting a little bit of understeer, but not much, and I was putting more throttle into it, unwinding the steering coming onto the straight and that was when the car started to rotate, and not only did MDM not catch it, the back end of the car hit the dirt on the right side of the track, I countersteered as much as i could, but didn't catch it, and then went across to the left side of the track into the dirt, countersteered again, didn't catch it, and did this 2 more times as my speed lowered and the oversteer got less and less until i was able to gain control of the car. The whole time I'm countersteering, I could see the MDM light flashing away, and the car just didn't feel responsive. Honestly, I felt like something in the suspension broke, as the breakaway was that sudden and severe and once it was past the level of adhesion, I could not get the back-end back in line until the speed really dropped!

I did have older MPSS on the rear with about 30% left on them - after this session I would oversteer a lot more compared to before - but the temps and PSI were in line with what I had been doing earlier in the day.

I wish I had some data or video to at least see what I was doing and what I did wrong. It's put a dampener on me wanting to get back out onto the track, but I would like to see how the car does on some newer rubber and on a track with more forgiving runoff. Thanks for the advice on NJMP; it's the only track in the area I haven't been to! Maybe I'll see you at NJMP one of these weekends!

[APR-M4!]

With my limited experience with the M4, traction control off seems smoother; the traction control is too intrusive. However, I use the normal throttle setting. I don't get the sport modes and why BMW would want the throttle travel to be shorter. A longer throttle would make it easier to modulate the throttle exiting a corner.

Also, the more aggressive shift settings seem to spin the tires on upshifts. I have never experienced this before, is this normal?

[melanthius]

Yeah depending on your traction at that time, the car definitely has enough power to chirp tires on upshifts.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by APR-M4!

With my limited experience with the M4, traction control off seems smoother; the traction control is too intrusive. However, I use the normal throttle setting. I don't get the sport modes and why BMW would want the throttle travel to be shorter. A longer throttle would make it easier to modulate the throttle exiting a corner.

Also, the more aggressive shift settings seem to spin the tires on upshifts. I have never experienced this before, is this normal?

The throttle travel is not “shorter” in the Sport settings. Sport+ is simply the sharpest most direct setting with no damping/delay between throttle pedal movement and engine response, and still uses the full throttle pedal travel.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by APR-M4!

With my limited experience with the M4, traction control off seems smoother; the traction control is too intrusive. However, I use the normal throttle setting. I don't get the sport modes and why BMW would want the throttle travel to be shorter. A longer throttle would make it easier to modulate the throttle exiting a corner.

Also, the more aggressive shift settings seem to spin the tires on upshifts. I have never experienced this before, is this normal?

Have you been on social media lately? People think breaking traction and dRiFtiNg is the ultimate skill. BMW is just exploiting them.

The only real benefit to having the ECU change the throttle curve is to possibly counter turbo lag but it didn't do that at all in my CS.

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

I've always not enjoyed sport +… it's too herky jerky and the shifts are almost too abrupt on track.

But to either their own… if you like it and it helps, then go for it!