Albert Biermann M division engineering boss - 2016 M3 GT, M7, xDrive M5/M6?

[Keca10]

How about eMing the i8.

Take out heavy batteries, put the S85 in there and you got an exotic to compete with the R8. Don't forget a Manuel.

You are welcome, Bierman.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Keca10

How about eMing the i8.

Take out heavy batteries, put the S85 in there and you got an exotic to compete with the R8. Don't forget a Manuel.

You are welcome, Bierman.

Leave...

[Keca10]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Leave...

Granted I haven't driven the i8 but to me it's a stupid car.
Why dilute a sports car with hybrid lameness?

I am all for electric or gas sports cars. I love the tesla. But hybrid is always going to be less than the sum of the parts, it's crappy at being an electric or combustion. It makes compromises. There is value in being focused and simple.

Imagine the car with looks of the i8 and the sound and feel of a V10. It's been done before by exotic manufacturers because it's a good idea. Or make it all electric. Tesla proved it can be done and the result is amazing with the model S.

Hybrids are not the future, car makers are just scared to jump all in to electrics. I would much rather an R8 (even an 8 cylinder) than the i8. It looks mental, that's why it's drawing the crowds, not because of its driving dynamics or nice mpg. i3 is a brilliant idea but it's the ugliest thing since the Aztec and it won't sell for that reason. Then BMW will complain how they tried electrics and the market just doesn't exist. i8 is a waste of a good design. It will be remembered as an awkward but stylish experiment from BMW before they developed a real business strategy other then 'aggressive model and line additions (that no one asked for) paired with a confused vision of a future to drive volume'.

Just my opinion. We can agree to disagree, but I am here to stay.

[BhamDavid]

Originally Posted by Keca10

Granted I haven't driven the i8 but to me it's a stupid car.
Why dilute a sports car with hybrid lameness?

You probably haven't read any road tests of the Porsche 918.

[Keca10]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

You probably haven't read any road tests of the Porsche 918.

I've read them and the P1. It's a demo of hey look we can make combustion and electric work in harmony to create something amazing the world has never seen. And it's true.

Those cars are beyond anything most of us have ever driven.
But they could have been even better as all electric. And next time Porsche does this, it just might be.

[BhamDavid]

I hate the religion of hybrids but have come to understand and appreciate hybrid technology. The torque characteristics of electric motors allow for excellent acceleration while the engine can be small since it only needs sufficient power to maintain cruising speeds. The engine also increases range without the need for heavy batteries.

For around town town use, a fully electric solution works well (i3).

For a performance GT for trips, with current battery technology, hybrids work well (i8).

I too like the Tesla but for long trips would not like to have 30 minute stops along my journey for charging.

I think BMW understands the need to catch people's eye and minds thus the styling of the i3. If it looked like just another car, it technological difference might be easily dismissed. Some people will see cuteness in its styling. Lord knows how many Fiat 500s have been sold due to its cuteness because it is a lousy driving car.

[Tonymiabmw]

I agree with 4wd on future M5. Makes complete sense to do it. The think is heavy as a dog. Look at the results Mercedes got by by making the e63 AMG 4matic. M3 should never be 4wd but m5/m6 target audience it only makes sense.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Keca10

Granted I haven't driven the i8 but to me it's a stupid car.
Why dilute a sports car with hybrid lameness?

I am all for electric or gas sports cars. I love the tesla. But hybrid is always going to be less than the sum of the parts, it's crappy at being an electric or combustion. It makes compromises. There is value in being focused and simple.

Imagine the car with looks of the i8 and the sound and feel of a V10. It's been done before by exotic manufacturers because it's a good idea. Or make it all electric. Tesla proved it can be done and the result is amazing with the model S.

Hybrids are not the future, car makers are just scared to jump all in to electrics. I would much rather an R8 (even an 8 cylinder) than the i8. It looks mental, that's why it's drawing the crowds, not because of its driving dynamics or nice mpg. i3 is a brilliant idea but it's the ugliest thing since the Aztec and it won't sell for that reason. Then BMW will complain how they tried electrics and the market just doesn't exist. i8 is a waste of a good design. It will be remembered as an awkward but stylish experiment from BMW before they developed a real business strategy other then 'aggressive model and line additions (that no one asked for) paired with a confused vision of a future to drive volume'.

Just my opinion. We can agree to disagree, but I am here to stay.

Of course you are here to stay, but this i8 question has been asked so many times before that you can search for the answer. The conception of the i8 is based on the question what if? The first words on a whiteboard where what if?
Legislation is increasing and city use is becoming restricted, if high performance cars were affected by legislation. How would the sports car progress? And would the sports car become extinct?

The i8 answers these questions despite its efficiency and its plug-in hybrid capability. The i8 is very much still a high performance sports car yet it does everything differently. From its futuristic appearance to its definitive cutting edge material genes to its three cylinder engine and its significant consumption.

The i8 showcases how challenges a sports car will face in the future can be met and adapted to deliver everything expected of a sports car whilst laying the groundwork for a logical progression of the BMW brand.

If the i8 used a V8 and conventional drivetrain then you do not showcase individuality you showcase normality. You would be no more different than anybody else.

The i8 is all about individuality. It embodies a changing philosophy but adds a radical yet innovative and progressive twist to the definition of a sports car.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

I agree with 4wd on future M5. Makes complete sense to do it. The think is heavy as a dog. Look at the results Mercedes got by by making the e63 AMG 4matic. M3 should never be 4wd but m5/m6 target audience it only makes sense.

They will equip the next M5 with the option of xDrive as well as standard RWD the question is? Do you want more grip? Or less weight?

[Keca10]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

They will equip the next M5 with the option of xDrive as well as standard RWD the question is? Do you want more grip? Or less weight?

It already has 400 lbs more weight than the E60 M5. BMW gave up on driving dynamics. Might as well throw in the AWD.

[Tonymiabmw]

Originally Posted by Keca10

It already has 400 lbs more weight than the E60 M5. BMW gave up on driving dynamics. Might as well throw in the AWD.

+1 who wants expect a 7 series sized car to handle like a 911. Least it could do is go fast in a straight line.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

I agree with 4wd on future M5. Makes complete sense to do it. The think is heavy as a dog. Look at the results Mercedes got by by making the e63 AMG 4matic. M3 should never be 4wd but m5/m6 target audience it only makes sense.

Why is it that the M3/M4 should never be xDrive? I've heard that a few times here now. Where does that notion come from? I mean no one is saying to make it standard, but at least optional. For an added cost. The question is in my mind is not why, but why not?


Surely it can not be ruled out in the name of weight conservation since they already offer an f83 which is much heavier. I do not see an f80 xDrive being any heavier than an f83, which I am sure will be slower to 60 but will drive just like an M car should. Not all of us track our cars and are hell bent on the weight savings. I need a bad ass daily driver that makes me smile after a long day at the office, but at the same time is not a dog to drive in the snow or needs to be stored. Exactly why I sold my e92 M3 for the f30 335 xDrive.


Besides, the M division already has the AWD technology from the X5M and X6M cars (no featherweights there either). So it can not be that hard for them to implement. Kind of silly to not offer it on the rest of the line up, if you ask me. And will probably make them more money than an M3 GT and will bring back some of that Audi and Merc money.

[Tonymiabmw]

I don't see any M3 enthusiast liking a AWD version. I owned a E46 and A E90. Between me any my brother(e30,e36,e92)we have owned every M3 and driven ever M3. I think a lot of people jumped on the M3 bandwagon at the e9x. All the exhaust and stupid i6 comment let me know when someone only has owned a e90. After driving ever M3 body style. AWD would ruin the true spirit of the M3. I can say not one generation of M3 has disappointed me. Each generation has something to love that makes it stand out from it's previous generation.

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

I don't see any M3 enthusiast liking a AWD version. I owned a E46 and A E90. Between me any my brother(e30,e36,e92)we have owned every M3 and driven ever M3. I think a lot of people jumped on the M3 bandwagon at the e9x. All the exhaust and stupid i6 comment let me know when someone only has owned a e90. After driving ever M3 body style. AWD would ruin the true spirit of the M3. I can say not one generation of M3 has disappointed me. Each generation has something to love that makes it stand out from it's previous generation.

The true spirit of the M3 would be forever ruined for you if someone else was able to order AWD as an option?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Keca10

It already has 400 lbs more weight than the E60 M5. BMW gave up on driving dynamics. Might as well throw in the AWD.

As I said the NEXT generation of M5 that arrives in 2017 will be lighter thanks to extensive use of Carbon Fibre. Even more so than the standard G30 5er.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

Not all of us track our cars and are hell bent on the weight savings. I need a bad ass daily driver that makes me smile after a long day at the office, but at the same time is not a dog to drive in the snow or needs to be stored. Exactly why I sold my e92 M3 for the f30 335 xDrive.


.

then you don't want or aren't in the market for the m3. you want a different car.

the m3 is supposed to be a nimble and track capable car.

what you are looking for isn't an m3. its not a problem with the m3, its just that you want a different type of car than the m3.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

then you don't want or aren't in the market for the m3. you want a different car.

the m3 is supposed to be a nimble and track capable car.

what you are looking for isn't an m3. its not a problem with the m3, its just that you want a different type of car than the m3.

Well said

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by KwlAznKid

fukin ridiculous with all these different models coming out, if Mercedes and/or audi come out with a true dct I'm saying bye bye to bmw after owning 4 bmws

I don't quite understand your thinking. While I do see that people aren't happy with myriad M-cars like AMG have done (and even agree somewhat), none of them will change the heritage or capability of the flagship M3 or the M5 leaving the brand for two makers who have whored out their performance arms for years seems extreme.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

then you don't want or aren't in the market for the m3. you want a different car.

the m3 is supposed to be a nimble and track capable car.

what you are looking for isn't an m3. its not a problem with the m3, its just that you want a different type of car than the m3.

Absolutely correct. While it must be mentioned that the M3 is above all a daily driver, the M3's rear drive nature and ability to handle atop the sedan pile is key.

[mkoesel]

I can see both sides here.

The M3/M4 are not dedicated performance cars; they are built to be good all-around drivers for a variety of uses. In that sense, I don't see why optional AWD would automatically be out of place.

That said, with the numbers the F8x is slated to put to the ground, the added weight of the system may not necessarily be offset by whatever traction advantage it provides.

Furthermore, on the topic of AWD as it pertains to added utility rather than added performance, well, I agree that there are only a very few scenarios where a non-SAV BMW with xDrive will get you where an M3/M4(/M5/M6) won't. Now, the AWD might give you more confidence or better peace of mind, and it's certainly a valid reason for wanting the system. But, at the same time you have to draw the line somewhere, and I understand why BMW has resisted yielding to that kind of thinking so far when it comes to deciding the feature set for the M passenger cars.

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

then you don't want or aren't in the market for the m3. you want a different car.

the m3 is supposed to be a nimble and track capable car.

what you are looking for isn't an m3. its not a problem with the m3, its just that you want a different type of car than the m3.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

i dont get you bmw... i dont get you..

Yes you do, you own two (at least)

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

then you don't want or aren't in the market for the m3. you want a different car.

the m3 is supposed to be a nimble and track capable car.

what you are looking for isn't an m3. its not a problem with the m3, its just that you want a different type of car than the m3.

Originally Posted by Carl L

Absolutely correct. While it must be mentioned that the M3 is above all a daily driver, the M3's rear drive nature and ability to handle atop the sedan pile is key.

Incorrect actually, I do want an M3, just one that is slightly different than the one you have in mind.


I guess everyone has a different idea of what an M3 should be. Some like it naturally aspirated, some like it turbo. Some like the big V8 rumble, others like the 4 cylinder e30. Some think it should only be a coupe, others love the 4 door. Some think the auto is sweet others like the 6MT!


I guess you think it should stay RWD and I would love them to make it in xDrive. That's all.