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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ? | |||
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable |
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93 | 45.81% |
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine |
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110 | 54.19% |
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll |
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06-02-2014, 11:27 AM | #595 | |
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06-02-2014, 12:01 PM | #596 | |
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The point is not to put a S65 V8 in the F80, but a improved S65. that makes more power! |
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06-02-2014, 12:03 PM | #597 |
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Sometimes you read a long thread and come out wiser. Sometimes you come out with a loss of faith in humanity. Why did I get sucked into reading so many of these posts? Skip 5 months worth of posts and its still the same shit. People with different opinions, passing off their opinions as fact, or as some sort of gospel. Then you get the others attempting to belittle the opinions of others with their superior understanding or enlightenment. Sad.
If I didn't know better i'd think this was a bunch of 18 year old testosterone laden dudes arguing. There are pros and cons with both engines. The efficiency and instantly available torque of an FI engine are hard to beat. On paper they win every time. On the other hand, the throttle response, linearity, feeling (and sound) of a high revving NA engine give me a feeling that is more visceral, more enjoyable despite the lack of instantly available torque. I solve this problem with cars that provide me with the best of both worlds. a high revving 9,000 rpm car that I can afford to flog at the track and provides me with the more raw feeling that I enjoy SOMETIMES. And a mildly tuned FI car that is refined, smooth, and provides all the power and efficiency I could want for a daily driver. |
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06-02-2014, 01:02 PM | #598 | ||
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Well ... ![]() ![]() Are you kidding me? I would LOVE an engine like that in my M4. Imagine, a more fuel efficient engine cranking out that many horses in a high revving, sweet sounding V8. My M4 would haul ass like nobody's business and there would be no worry about any of the drawbacks associated with lazy-assed turbo charging!!! It just sounds too good to be true. So I'm not buying it. Literally. I'm not buying it. It's not an option for my M4 because it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist I suspect because the Dream Engine that you are describing is likely neither realistic nor feasible, or it would have been built by the engineering masters over in the ///M Division. But you know more than they do I guess. ![]() Instead the path you are describing - considering that the platform is not being built by a division with an unlimited budget for buyers with unlimited budgets - likely would lead to a thirstier engine with modest performance gains that would be put to shame by the new S55. Lest you think that the previous model's throttle response and power delivery was the Shangri-La of motorsport consider this Motor Trend article pitting your vaulted M3 against a standard-issue Mustang: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...m3_comparison/ Quote:
The new IS-F is supposedly coming out with a 5.0 liter NA V8. It will have north of 400 horses, but they are not saying how much. Perhaps it might be a better metric of what might have been. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I will be enjoying all that lovely torque on tap and you can hug your e90 M3.
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06-02-2014, 02:28 PM | #599 | |
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Further, the heavy and AWD RS5 is EPA rated at 16/23, which is better than the 14/20 for the E9X M3. Better fuel economy than the E9X could have been achieved with a DI S65B44 development. Also not that far fetched. This engine would have been more expensive than the S55 and would have not met BMW's emissions target for the car (S55 is EPA rated at 17/26). The engineers did not build it because they were told not to (through the targets they were imposed). IMO, as I posted previously, BMW gave us the S55 to meet two corporate objectives: cost and emissions. Not because it is a better performance engine. That being said, the world is changing and I have no choice to accept it. I am looking forward to driving my M4 in 8 weeks and see how much of a compromise (if at all) the S55 really is ![]() Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-02-2014 at 03:41 PM.. |
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06-02-2014, 03:25 PM | #600 | |
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S65B44 was the natural extension as seen in the GTS/CRT. Want to know how the new M3/4 performs? Look at the GTS/CRT, pretty much the same times that have come out so far for straight line and N-ring time should also be similar, despite the huge torque “disadvantage” of the 444 bhp stroked engine. German and US tuners are with software/intake revisions are getting 440 bhp S65B40 with stock exhaust. Would only have software, DCT programming (to skip gears), new cams (already exist), crank/ cylinder de-activation and I don’t think It would be that much more expensive considering the heavy lifting R&D was done in the early part of the 2000 decade and 470 should be easily achievable with better fuel efficiency. The engine was WAY ahead of its time and has some features still non-existent in current road cars. Don’t see how companies like Porsche can do it with brand new engines and not have these “infeasibility issues” and their profit margins are growing over the years...this would have simply been an extension of what already existed.
Also my point is BMW should have not been as greedy and not striven for the extra $2k per vehicle they’ll probably be making on the new car vs the old. The formula I described would probably get the M3/4 to win every comparo, like its predecessors, which would probably have increased sales of other BMW cars (will outsell the M3/4 by 7-8 to one). Love how everyone thinks they can get a mustang and think they could keep up with an M3, based on Randy’s time and its so obvious he totally man-handles the car on the track to extract everything and the thing is not planted/confidence inspiring based on the videos (and based on the prior gen Mustangs I’ve driven). In the hands of your typical track amateur, the results would have been completely different. Even the Boss 302s, C6 vettes, while very fast in the right hands, are not so easy to drive on technical tracks. Everyone who thinks that Mustangs are comparable to M3s spend some time on a difficult track and see how important handling, feel, engine feedback, throttle modulation and linear/smooth application of power are. Mustangs can be beaten by E36s with a few suspension mods and a tightened nut behind the wheel. Agreed the car I described doesn’t exist at BMW. That is a problem (or quasi problem) to me and a lot of others, but we’re probably in the minority and given a blank slate on considering a 70K+ car, I would probably still buy it if I had to make a decision today, or be in my top 3 to consider (anticipating the future competition). So my comments are not to take away from the M3/4s performance, but I think BMW could have done a more creative job and give up some money making and have a killer not only in its own category, but in higher echelon categories, in effect a halo car for the masses (similar to the Ms of the past) not in terms only of performance but also in driver experience/gratification. Quote:
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06-02-2014, 03:47 PM | #601 | |
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Not all change is bad and turbos definitely have their fun side. Plus there is some history with that I6. It belongs in an M3. Hopefully, you'll soon be forgetting how things used to be when you're kicking the snot out of one of these V8 behemoth throwbacks you mentioned in your fuel efficient turbo I6 and telling them all to say ello to my lille friends. ![]()
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06-03-2014, 01:30 AM | #603 | |
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06-03-2014, 03:12 AM | #604 |
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How says S65 vs. S55 is only an no sence discussion ... should only take a look at the poll results !
1/3 of the voters says that they would pay an extra ~10T€ for getting an S65 with the old M-DCT this mean ~6T€ only for getting an unique engine with round the same hp- and lower torque-numbers, but an totally different and more traditionally M style power delivery characteristic. And I bet, if such an option would be offered from BMW M Performance (Individual), it would be sold in numbers big enough to make no loss or a little profit. |
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06-03-2014, 03:43 AM | #605 |
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http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united...chmentId=29964
Highlights some of the bespoke features of the S8/65 See that turbo solution usually requires a reinforced, heavy drivetrain but CFRP answers that... While I find the S65 a marvel, I feel the S55 and drivetrain is awesome as well in its own regard... Welcome fixed calipers and nice steering turn in I don't like the interior, build quality of the interior, cost savings and air intake design of the new car Makes me more curious how BMW. M will get the next .25 out of the next version |
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06-03-2014, 08:49 AM | #606 |
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Yep the M history is a NA high revving motor with razor sharp throttle response. The I-6 was a BMW 3 series thing. This is the first time they have downsized the engine on the M3, M5 and M6.
How do you outperform the predecessor in numbers while downsizing your motor? Turbo or some sort of hybrid at this pace. I wouldn't be surprised really if the rumor about an I-4 turbo M3/4 comes to fruition. It should be a hybrid though like BMW hints with the i8. Anyone else notice this lately about BMW? The success of the 1M coupe and thinking now the i8 are hints of a future gen.
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06-03-2014, 04:18 PM | #607 |
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I really not get the point of all this "throttle response high rev thing".
My Audi R8 4,2 V8 had a very similar engine to the old M3. I did not enjoy the lack of power in everyday use, especially not on the Autobahn. Keeping the car in a certain rev range to utilise its power might be fun on a sunday afternoon on a racetrack. In everyday use the car just felt "tired". Just like you need to kick it in the bumm all the time, just for make it go. Sorry. |
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06-03-2014, 05:10 PM | #608 |
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To me its about variety. Why are we fighting about which is better than which? I've had the V8 for damn near 6 years. It's now SCd with close to 600hp, its fucking epic, and I love it.
Still, I will spice up my life in a few months and sell this epic beast for something else. Turbo would be fun, do a little torque action for the next 4-5 years. I just don't get why all the arguing lol, both have their positives and negatives, both aren't perfect, one isn't better than the other. |
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06-12-2014, 06:34 PM | #609 |
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God if only anyone WANTED to drive a truck motor BMW, the new M cars would be great.
What's next, diesel M cars? Remember, the diesel audi was dominating LeMans. Yippie! Fast lap times and dioxin odors! Turbo & low rpm = ///M is dead. |
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06-12-2014, 06:48 PM | #610 |
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Yep, a truck motor-powered car is faster than your E90 M3. U MAD BRO?
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06-12-2014, 06:51 PM | #611 | |
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![]() Yeah, OK. I love it when people judge a car they haven't driven. I guess ignorance is bliss ![]() ///M is very far from dead. It is just faster with more torque is all.
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06-13-2014, 07:13 AM | #612 | |
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06-13-2014, 09:57 AM | #613 |
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The throttle response in the S65 leaves one with anything but "it's tired" as a feeling.
It is gentile if you want it to be, and ready to romp at a moment's notice. It's all controlled by your right foot.
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06-13-2014, 11:56 AM | #614 | |
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06-16-2014, 10:00 PM | #615 |
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Interesting that you judge a car you haven't driven. Perhaps a re-read of what you replied with above is in order, Mr. Hypocrite?
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... a glorious V8 that screamed and hollered as the revs rose and then howled in an orgy of what sounded like BDSM ecstasy as it neared the red line.
Well, you can forget all that. The new car is fitted with a turbocharged straight six. Turbocharging? In an M car? That’s like putting gravy on an ice cream. - Jeremy Clarkson, discussing the S65 and then S55 M3 engines. |
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06-16-2014, 10:05 PM | #616 | |
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