Turning is hard....

[jpy1980]

Ok so ever since I got the car, I felt that turning is difficult. It just feels like I’m fighting the car when I’m on track. Mods have helped but I need more guidance.

Before asking “do you lift bro” stop it haha.

Steering is in comfort and here are my suspension mods:

Bilstein b16D COs (sport plus on track)
19 inch Titan7 wheels with MP4S tires
GC Plates with -2.75 F and -2 R
CS EDC and Steering coding
CS diff coding

Was at Chuckwalla this weekend and especially during the bowl section, it just felt like I’m fighting the car to turn. What would help? Is this just an inherent trait of this car? What helps on easier turns is some extra throttle or lift off oversteer, but not sure of that’s faster (not that I’m racing). Just don’t feel confident in this car.

I drove my buddies 997.1 base in the canyon a couple of months ago and that was amazingly Easy to turn and so confidence inspiring. I also drove my buddies e90 m3 and that was also easier to drive and was basically stock. Steering felt great in that car. Thoughts?

[FormulaMMM]

Not going to ask if you lift (clearly not), but am going to award 10/10 for ambiguity, bro...

Do you mean that the wheel is hard to turn even in comfort, i.e., requires too much effort, or that the front end won't bite and turn, and you experience understeer?

If it's the latter, what's your tire sizing front & rear? Are your wheels ship anchors?

The front axle and "eagerness" of turn in is the standout handling characteristic of the F8X gen, imo. From the base first model year examples through the GTS. Immediately and clearly better than E90.

So, if you're experiencing a lack of front end responsiveness and bite I'd suggest you've gone backwards from stock with your combination of mods.

If you're talking steering input effort, perhaps get your power steering checked out. Do you notice a change in resistance going through the steering modes?

[F80Speed77]

I don't think I've driven the car with steering in comfort. I think sport is too light!!! I'm not sure if that would make any sort of difference but I swear the throttle settings do things to the diff as well so maybe that is part of the problem? Maybe have the alignment checked too might have too much toe in somewhere? Agree with Formula that even the base M3 with EDC has such amazing front end feel and bite in stock form.

[FlyingLow78]

Originally Posted by jpy1980

Ok so ever since I got the car, I felt that turning is difficult. It just feels like I’m fighting the car when I’m on track. Mods have helped but I need more guidance.

Before asking “do you lift bro” stop it haha.

Steering is in comfort and here are my suspension mods:

Bilstein b16D COs (sport plus on track)
19 inch Titan7 wheels with MP4S tires
GC Plates with -2.75 F and -2 R
CS EDC and Steering coding
CS diff coding

Was at Chuckwalla this weekend and especially during the bowl section, it just felt like I’m fighting the car to turn. What would help? Is this just an inherent trait of this car? What helps on easier turns is some extra throttle or lift off oversteer, but not sure of that’s faster (not that I’m racing). Just don’t feel confident in this car.

I drove my buddies 997.1 base in the canyon a couple of months ago and that was amazingly Easy to turn and so confidence inspiring. I also drove my buddies e90 m3 and that was also easier to drive and was basically stock. Steering felt great in that car. Thoughts?

Does the car feel as if it’s under steering, or is the steering effort too high?

Off the top of my head, increased front caster would increase the steering effort and make the wheel self-center more readily. The CS coding could also have an effect, but I can’t say for sure since I’ve never driven a CS.

Are you able to post an alignment sheet for the car?

[FaRKle!]

What are the spring rates on the B16 damptronic kit?

On the F2x/F3x Bilstein coilover kits they tend to boost the front spring rate a ton, but depending on the model, don't change the rear spring rate very much (and in some cases its lower than OE). Too much front to rear spring bias will hurt eagerness to turn in (same with too large of a front sway bar).

[Suds]

What tires sizes are you running?
I have done 4 wet track days on MP4S, they are ok but not really a performance track tire for a dry track.

Originally Posted by jpy1980

Ok so ever since I got the car, I felt that turning is difficult. It just feels like I’m fighting the car when I’m on track. Mods have helped but I need more guidance.

Before asking “do you lift bro” stop it haha.

Steering is in comfort and here are my suspension mods:

Bilstein b16D COs (sport plus on track)
19 inch Titan7 wheels with MP4S tires
GC Plates with -2.75 F and -2 R
CS EDC and Steering coding
CS diff coding

Was at Chuckwalla this weekend and especially during the bowl section, it just felt like I’m fighting the car to turn. What would help? Is this just an inherent trait of this car? What helps on easier turns is some extra throttle or lift off oversteer, but not sure of that’s faster (not that I’m racing). Just don’t feel confident in this car.

I drove my buddies 997.1 base in the canyon a couple of months ago and that was amazingly Easy to turn and so confidence inspiring. I also drove my buddies e90 m3 and that was also easier to drive and was basically stock. Steering felt great in that car. Thoughts?

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by jpy1980

Ok so ever since I got the car, I felt that turning is difficult. It just feels like I’m fighting the car when I’m on track. Mods have helped but I need more guidance.

Before asking “do you lift bro” stop it haha.

Steering is in comfort and here are my suspension mods:

Bilstein b16D COs (sport plus on track)
19 inch Titan7 wheels with MP4S tires
GC Plates with -2.75 F and -2 R
CS EDC and Steering coding
CS diff coding

Was at Chuckwalla this weekend and especially during the bowl section, it just felt like I’m fighting the car to turn. What would help? Is this just an inherent trait of this car? What helps on easier turns is some extra throttle or lift off oversteer, but not sure of that’s faster (not that I’m racing). Just don’t feel confident in this car.

I drove my buddies 997.1 base in the canyon a couple of months ago and that was amazingly Easy to turn and so confidence inspiring. I also drove my buddies e90 m3 and that was also easier to drive and was basically stock. Steering felt great in that car. Thoughts?

First of all Chuckwalla is not a great track for this car. Long, high speed 180 degree turns are tough. It’s hard to find your marks there, so it’s hard to commit to a lot of sliding, oversteer etc. when you don’t have a great feel for the corner exits. I remember struggling there in my M4 if it’s any help.

Secondly, a rear engine Porsche is going to be way easier to turn in. If you had driven It at chuckwalla you’d find even it will push mid turn. Apples to oranges.

Lastly the M4 is like any other BMW since the E30. You turn with brakes, and then steer with the throttle. You must get your rotation started with the brakes. This will be a lot easier to get the concept of on a tighter, slower track. Maybe laguna seca or streets of willow since you’re in so cal. Seems difficult, but it’s what makes the M4 so fun to drive on track.

[jpy1980]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

First of all Chuckwalla is not a great track for this car. Long, high speed 180 degree turns are tough. It’s hard to find your marks there, so it’s hard to commit to a lot of sliding, oversteer etc. when you don’t have a great feel for the corner exits. I remember struggling there in my M4 if it’s any help.

Secondly, a rear engine Porsche is going to be way easier to turn in. If you had driven It at chuckwalla you’d find even it will push mid turn. Apples to oranges.

Lastly the M4 is like any other BMW since the E30. You turn with brakes, and then steer with the throttle. You must get your rotation started with the brakes. This will be a lot easier to get the concept of on a tighter, slower track. Maybe laguna seca or streets of willow since you’re in so cal. Seems difficult, but it’s what makes the M4 so fun to drive on track.

BAZINGA!

This made so much sense!

So you’re basically doing some slight weight transfer then using the throttle to steer.

Chuckwalla is so smooth.

[jpy1980]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I’m going back to my alignment shop and getting a new alignment soon. I’ll ask about the caster.

It’s more about the steering effort and the wheel wanting to fight me and get back to center. I think.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Trail brake along the edge of the traction circle. Not much steering angle is required at all due to rotation. Turning would be indeed (at least it feels) a bit slower than a Porsche or Miata (on the positive side it make is safer and easier to control) so have to be a bit patient in letting it rotate without giving too much steering angle. You can hear/feel it if you give too much steering input.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Trail brake along the edge of the traction circle. Not much steering angle is required at all due to rotation. Turning would be indeed (at least it feels) a bit slower than a Porsche or Miata (on the positive side it make is safer and easier to control) so have to be a bit patient in letting it rotate without giving too much steering angle. You can hear/feel it if you give too much steering input.

If OP doesn’t have the car rotated before going to power, Porsche or Spec Miata will also have a pushy feeling.

One potential scenario is over slowing in the straight, then getting to power too soon (before car is appropriately rotated) to compensate

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

If OP doesn’t have the car rotated before going to power, Porsche or Spec Miata will also have a pushy feeling.

One potential scenario is over slowing in the straight, then getting to power too soon (before car is appropriately rotated) to compensate

In fact I have no idea what exact situation OP described and so said whatever I wanted to say.

But I think this page will likely cover the case:
https://driver61.com/uni/understeer/

[stevehifi]

what your describing is the weak or lack of steering feedback of the f8x generation, causing you to over correct in transitions. You seem to have some decent camber already. Increasing caster will only add to extra effort needed to turn the wheel.
you just have to experiment with the car and try to find a good balance between using the throttle and steering input to help rotate the car.
you'll never get the same feeling from an e90 or 911 steering system, the eps system in the f8x is simply lackluster.

[jpy1980]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

what your describing is the weak or lack of steering feedback of the f8x generation, causing you to over correct in transitions. You seem to have some decent camber already. Increasing caster will only add to extra effort needed to turn the wheel.
you just have to experiment with the car and try to find a good balance between using the throttle and steering input to help rotate the car.
you'll never get the same feeling from an e90 or 911 steering system, the eps system in the f8x is simply lackluster.

Thanks for the explanation. Would more camber help in lessening the effort?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jpy1980

Thanks for the explanation. Would more camber help in lessening the effort?

No. It's the opposite.

[mangojuice]

Do you even lift bro?