718 Cayman GT4

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

All of you guys that have "wood" for a 718 GT4 relax. Word is production will be "unlimited" (keep in mind that unlimited means 1 less than demand in Porsche talk)….so find yourself a local dealer and order as many as you can. Me and the rest of my 981 GT4 brothers will thank you for keeping our values intact. And I know you guys won't believe this but the hating on the new model is just as strong on the Pcar side as it is in BMW land. Just think about all of the E46 vs E9X vs F80 hatred threads. I'll reserve judgement on the 718 GT4 until I actually drive one. My plans are to keep my 981 since the current specs on the 718 aren't enough to justify switching. Plus with only 11k on the clock in 3.5 years mine still smells new ……..Phil

Word is an unlimited 3 yr production run. Should put a dent in the stupid Porsche dealer ADM/long-term deposit scheme. That's a positive.

Funny this more rational production/sales concept is being applied to a model that doesn't have everyone rushing to make deposits though.

Wonder if the games will resume for 992 GT3. Perhaps Porsche has smartened up, decided facilitating a business environment ripe for graft, embezzlement, (actual and prospective) customer dissatisfaction wasn't so great. You're selling production cars, not Shakespeare's signature. Normal business practices would be just fine.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

All of you guys that have "wood" for a 718 GT4 relax. Word is production will be "unlimited" (keep in mind that unlimited means 1 less than demand in Porsche talk)….so find yourself a local dealer and order as many as you can. Me and the rest of my 981 GT4 brothers will thank you for keeping our values intact. And I know you guys won't believe this but the hating on the new model is just as strong on the Pcar side as it is in BMW land. Just think about all of the E46 vs E9X vs F80 hatred threads. I'll reserve judgement on the 718 GT4 until I actually drive one. My plans are to keep my 981 since the current specs on the 718 aren't enough to justify switching. Plus with only 11k on the clock in 3.5 years mine still smells new ……..Phil

Agreed. The production will not be “unlimited” the way people anticipate. This car will be incredible just like the 981 GT4 and Spyder are/were and I hope as someone who plans to get one hope the values go crazy again as they usually do for GT cars.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Word is an unlimited 3 yr production run. Should put a dent in the stupid Porsche dealer ADM/long-term deposit scheme. That's a positive.

Funny this more rational production/sales concept is being applied to a model that doesn't have everyone rushing to make deposits though.

Wonder if the games will resume for 992 GT3. Perhaps Porsche has smartened up, decided facilitating a business environment ripe for graft, embezzlement, (actual and prospective) customer dissatisfaction wasn't so great. You're selling production cars, not Shakespeare's signature. Normal business practices would be just fine.

The ADM game only impacts those who want to be the first on the block with the new toy.....gotta pay to play. The shame in the game is getting an allocation for some of the cars. Very tough to walk in and just order a GT car if you don't have some type of relationship at a dealership. And yes they are production cars but, they're highly sought after production cars.

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Agreed. The production will not be “unlimited” the way people anticipate. This car will be incredible just like the 981 GT4 and Spyder are/were and I hope as someone who plans to get one hope the values go crazy again as they usually do for GT cars.

Can't wait to see what the ADM's are...….I can see 15k for early orders. Are you on a allocation list or are you planning to wait out the hype?...……..Phil

[hellrotm]

.2 GT3 and GT3RS were easier to pick up this time around. Some RS still sitting on lots at msrp. 718 GT4 should be a lot easier to obtain than 981.

[FormulaMMM]

There are almost 700 991 GT cars listed on Autotrader right now

The ADM/"pay to play" allocation game was stupid and entirely artificial. Porsche facilitated it, but can't believe they appreciated where it went.

They're a generational company. Want their cars out on the road and inspiring future Porschephiles, not in collector garages and subject to mass panic resales when values look questionable.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

The ADM game only impacts those who want to be the first on the block with the new toy.....gotta pay to play. The shame in the game is getting an allocation for some of the cars. Very tough to walk in and just order a GT car if you don't have some type of relationship at a dealership. And yes they are production cars but, they're highly sought after production cars.



Can't wait to see what the ADM's are...….I can see 15k for early orders. Are you on a allocation list or are you planning to wait out the hype?...……..Phil

I have solid Porsche relationships with several dealers due to family and friends. If I get an early allocation I’ll take it. If they happen to be selling for 15/20/25k over I wouldn’t complain.

I just picked up a Carrera T (just sold my 991.2S and 718 CGTS)) so I should be good for a bit.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

There are almost 700 991 GT cars listed on Autotrader right now

The ADM/"pay to play" allocation game was stupid and entirely artificial. Porsche facilitated it, but can't believe they appreciated where it went.

They're a generational company. Want their cars out on the road and inspiring future Porschephiles, not in collector garages and subject to mass panic resales when values look questionable.

The latter is quite true. That’s where I’d bifurcate them with most. They want the cars to be driven and enjoyed. The Porsche brand is where it is in large part to the fact that the older generation cars are still so prevalent today. Contiguous to that, companies like Singer and Gunther only keep that going.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I have solid Porsche relationships with several dealers due to family and friends. If I get an early allocation I’ll take it. If they happen to be selling for 15/20/25k over I wouldn’t complain.

I just picked up a Carrera T (just sold my 991.2S and 718 CGTS)) so I should be good for a bit.

How are you liking the T.....are you on Rennlist as well?...…...Phil

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

How are you liking the T.....are you on Rennlist as well?...…...Phil

I love the T - it’s a special car for sure and really enjoying the experience (and the fact that it’s extremely rare is nice too). The changes (Porsche pixie dust?) they made equate to a lot and it’s hard to believe until you drive it and take it in first hand. Porsche just seems to know how to slice the 911 pie in many ways and give you a unique experience with each one. The S was great and certainly a car more capable than most, the 718 GTS was phenomenal as well (and even enjoyed the 4 cylinder) but the T would be my pick of the three all things considered. Can’t wait to get it on some circuits this summer.

[Damage Inc]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

$97k Base Price. Last gen Spyders have held their value extremely well. Some folks on here seem to think that it should be the fastest car ever, but that’s not really its reason for being. It’s really all about driver engagement, not outright speed, although it will still be pretty fast.

+1

I applaud Porsche for keeping true to the enthusiast. They seem to have their finger on the pulse of what enthusiasts want including high rev N/A motors in their GT cars, manual transmissions, and car versions focused on driver involvements vs. juicing up HP and 0-60 numbers that are numb to drive.

Too bad the M division doesnt get to create driver focused cars like the Porsche GT division.

Imagine if the M4 GTS was a 9k RPM N/A 6 w manual trans? It would have been a success vs. the fail it it. BMW needs to suck it up and do it for real, vs. modding a stock M4.

[WESTCOASTTRADING]

is new GT4 using GT3's old 4.0 liter engine?
Car looks amazing!

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by 10biie89

is new GT4 using GT3's old 4.0 liter engine?
Car looks amazing!

No - though it does share the same bore and stroke as the GT3 it is a non turbo version of the 9A2 motor that is in the Carrera, S, GTS models.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

+1

I applaud Porsche for keeping true to the enthusiast. They seem to have their finger on the pulse of what enthusiasts want including high rev N/A motors in their GT cars, manual transmissions, and car versions focused on driver involvements vs. juicing up HP and 0-60 numbers that are numb to drive.

Too bad the M division doesnt get to create driver focused cars like the Porsche GT division.

Imagine if the M4 GTS was a 9k RPM N/A 6 w manual trans? It would have been a success vs. the fail it it. BMW needs to suck it up and do it for real, vs. modding a stock M4.

BMW could make a GTS with magic fairy dust on it and half of the forum which seems to be closet Porsche fanboys would be screaming 'for 130k I'd get a GT3', completely ignoring that you cannot buy a GT3 for 130k in the first place. You can see this in the threads on this very forum, where before any tests or drives are available people are already exclaiming they are incapable of buying something that does not have a Porsche badge for the price of the M car.

I don't think BMW has to change anything from their M3 formula. Despite all the whining, M3s continue providing excellent dynamics for a very reasonable price and they are fast as hell.
A friend has had a 991.2 6MT GT3 for a while and we swapped cars to do some mountain roads. After paying whatever he paid for the GT3 he couldn't stop commenting how much more balanced the M3 drives than the GT3.

I'm a huge NA proponent but I find it quite cynical for Porsche to go out of their way to make a 'NA' engine like the one in the GT4. One decade after the E9X M3 they come out with a 4.0 with 414hp? In a car with a base price of 100k vs the E9X's ~65k? Am I supposed to applaud?

I was looking forward to Porsche making something fast to provide some entertainment in track days. Unfortunately it seems like the only ones that will continue providing any entertainment at all are the 991 GT3s and Cup Cars. The 'new' GT4 will be like swatting flies away, just like the old one.


Meanwhile my offer still stands, I'm a little disappointed all the Porsche fanboys are unwilling to take me up on it

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

+1

I applaud Porsche for keeping true to the enthusiast. They seem to have their finger on the pulse of what enthusiasts want including high rev N/A motors in their GT cars, manual transmissions, and car versions focused on driver involvements vs. juicing up HP and 0-60 numbers that are numb to drive.

Too bad the M division doesnt get to create driver focused cars like the Porsche GT division.

Imagine if the M4 GTS was a 9k RPM N/A 6 w manual trans? It would have been a success vs. the fail it it. BMW needs to suck it up and do it for real, vs. modding a stock M4.

Porsche knows how to do both ends. Super fast track cars and super involved driver car. Most of the time they package both into their cars, like how a basic Carrera S is not only faster on track (on summer tires) than an M4 GTS (on cup tires) but is also much more fun to drive.
The GT4 will be an exhilarating car to drive and be very quick on track. The thing is the 911 and Cayman are so much better balanced in their approach. I’ve let many friends who drive M3s and M4s drive my 911 & Cayman GTS on some windy, tight back roads and they wax poetic about how much better balanced the car is than the near “50/50” M3/4, how much more engaging and precise it is, which are all very true. Nearly all have either converted or said they will be buying a Porsche very soon.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Meanwhile my offer still stands, I'm a little disappointed all the Porsche fanboys are unwilling to take me up on it

This is probably because they are Fanboys and not owners ...……..Phil

[Darth One]

What was the offer again? Free track time in my GT4 so you can whup me in a BMW and prove your point? Sounds like a fair deal

[sausage4]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BMW could make a GTS with magic fairy dust on it and half of the forum which seems to be closet Porsche fanboys would be screaming 'for 130k I'd get a GT3', completely ignoring that you cannot buy a GT3 for 130k in the first place. You can see this in the threads on this very forum, where before any tests or drives are available people are already exclaiming they are incapable of buying something that does not have a Porsche badge for the price of the M car.

I don't think BMW has to change anything from their M3 formula. Despite all the whining, M3s continue providing excellent dynamics for a very reasonable price and they are fast as hell.
A friend has had a 991.2 6MT GT3 for a while and we swapped cars to do some mountain roads. After paying whatever he paid for the GT3 he couldn't stop commenting how much more balanced the M3 drives than the GT3.

I'm a huge NA proponent but I find it quite cynical for Porsche to go out of their way to make a 'NA' engine like the one in the GT4. One decade after the E9X M3 they come out with a 4.0 with 414hp? In a car with a base price of 100k vs the E9X's ~65k? Am I supposed to applaud?

I was looking forward to Porsche making something fast to provide some entertainment in track days. Unfortunately it seems like the only ones that will continue providing any entertainment at all are the 991 GT3s and Cup Cars. The 'new' GT4 will be like swatting flies away, just like the old one.


Meanwhile my offer still stands, I'm a little disappointed all the Porsche fanboys are unwilling to take me up on it

M3 is more balanced than a .2 gt3

If you say so...

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Porsche knows how to do both ends. [...]The thing is the 911 and Cayman are so much better balanced in their approach. I’ve let many friends who drive M3s and M4s drive my 911 & Cayman GTS on some windy, tight back roads and they wax poetic about how much better balanced the car is than the near “50/50” M3/4, how much more engaging and precise it is, which are all very true. Nearly all have either converted or said they will be buying a Porsche very soon.

One word: weight.
M3's have steadily gotten porkier with every generation.
E30 M3 was 2,568 lbs
E36 M3 was 3,175
E46 M3 was 3,296
E90 M3 was 3,538
F80 M3 is 3,574 (6sp) 3,631 (DCT).

For reference, E34 M5 weighted nearly as much, and had shorter wheelbase, narrower body, and only 1.9" longer shell than F80 M3.
Today's M3 is yesteryear's M5!

For comparison, Porsche GT4 weights 2,955 lbs.
Porsche 991 weights 3,164 lbs.

It doesn't matter that the weight distribution is 50/50, there is just way too much of it to begin with !

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BMW could make a GTS with magic fairy dust on it and half of the forum which seems to be closet Porsche fanboys would be screaming 'for 130k I'd get a GT3', completely ignoring that you cannot buy a GT3 for 130k in the first place.

I have never owned a Porsche, but would also never consider an M5-caliber vehicle (current F80, GTS or not) to be an adequate competitor to 991, never mind a GT3.

At any price.

There is clearly a marketplace for both types of cars, but the current M3 (GT vehicle) doesn't really compete with 911 (sports car). Arguably, older ones stopped trying sometime after E30/E36 days, when BMW weight starting climbing with each generation, while 911's held relatively light and definitely nimble.

Excessive weight kills the fun and engagement of driving.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't think BMW has to change anything from their M3 formula. Despite all the whining, M3s continue providing excellent dynamics for a very reasonable price and they are fast as hell.

If you think weight doesn't matter, go test-drive a Tesla M3-Performance.
Be prepared to be blown away by a 0-60 in 3.2 seconds experience, excellent dynamics, fantastic brakes, stupendous tech, at an even MORE reasonable price than ///M3.

No BMW can match that performance, at any price.
But those 4,072 lbs of weight do make themselves unmistakably present on track, and muscling that porker through a slalom is not all that enjoyable.
Very doable, but not nearly as much fun as autoXing a 3,000 lbs car, or even a 3,500 lbs car. Ask me how I know.

///M3 is not THAT heavy yet, but BMW has porked the M-cars up 1/2 of the way from a GT4 to a Tesla.

Fast versions of the new G80 M3 will be exclusively AWD and slush-box shifted.
Wanna bet it won't tip the scales north of 3,800 lbs?


a

P.S.: There will be a slow-poke "pure" G80 M3, that will still be porky, and will continue to get embarrassed on track by 991/992, C63s, TT RS, VW GTI Clubsport, Giulia Quad, etc, etc.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by sausage4

M3 is more balanced than a .2 gt3

If you say so...

The owner said so.

Meanwhile it is evident a car with 50/50 distribution is more balanced than a rear engined car. Which is why Porsche has gone moving the rear axle further and further back and the engine more to the front.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by afadeev

P.S.: There will be a slow-poke "pure" G80 M3, that will still be porky, and will continue to get embarrassed on track by 991/992, C63s, TT RS, VW GTI Clubsport, Giulia Quad, etc, etc.

Agreed on the 'pure', if you are not going to make a competition package 'pure' version then don't bother.

This is the first I hear of M3s being embarrassed at the track by C63s, TT RSs, GTis and Giulias. Which tracks are these?
First you criticize BMW for making a porker F80 at ~3600lb and then you speak of the C63s which weighs around 400lb more.

If a 991 or 992 could embarrass an M3 I would already have one. Instead I have 3 M3s, all of which embarrass the GT3, GT3 RSs that go to the track.


People need to stop staring at Excel sheets and go out to the track to drive. They would find out that weight is not a good thing but should not stop you from being faster than lighter cars.

[sausage4]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The owner said so.

Meanwhile it is evident a car with 50/50 distribution is more balanced than a rear engined car. Which is why Porsche has gone moving the rear axle further and further back and the engine more to the front.

Engine remained the same ,its the sway bar thats moved forward. Fyi the most balance car would be mid engine set up ,and there's never a 50/50 weight distribution ever. More weight towards the rear is more optimal .

[sausage4]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Agreed on the 'pure', if you are not going to make a competition package 'pure' version then don't bother.

This is the first I hear of M3s being embarrassed at the track by C63s, TT RSs, GTis and Giulias. Which tracks are these?
First you criticize BMW for making a porker F80 at ~3600lb and then you speak of the C63s which weighs around 400lb more.

If a 991 or 992 could embarrass an M3 I would already have one. Instead I have 3 M3s, all of which embarrass the GT3, GT3 RSs that go to the track.


People need to stop staring at Excel sheets and go out to the track to drive. They would find out that weight is not a good thing but should not stop you from being faster than lighter cars.

You've beat the driver ,m3 embarrass a gt3/rs...yeah keep dreaming.