Who has driven an F8x M3/M4 in the snow? Describe your experiences

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

When I was buying my winter tires 2 years ago, I was told that sottozeros were better on cold-dry roads, and blizzaks were better on snow and ice. So I went for blizzaks

^This, not all snow tires are the same. Make sure you know what you are getting and that they are suitable for the environment you are driving them in.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Last winter I drove a 6000 pound 2007 vw touareg TDI (5.0 liter v10 twin turbo diesel). It was riding on good quality but semi-worn toyo a/t tires in 255 width. Relatively short wheelbase.

It was literally the worst experience I remember having in any vehicle in the winter and it had zero to do with it's 600+ lb/ft of torque.

Sure, I could probably power out of ANY snow drift. And it had an adjustable air suspension where I could raise the vehicle an additional 6" by twisting a knob in the cabin.

The problem was mass, momentum, and height: When control was lost, in any situation, the movement was ridiculous. The ability to re-gain control in ANY sort of reasonable time frame/distance was scary. I once slid down a slight incline about 150 feet going 10mph and there was zero response to braking or steering input and it was headed into an intersection so I wasn't goosing the throttle (there was no where to go). It wasn't even that cold/icy....it was just that it had lost traction and wasn't going to regain it.

Now alot of that was tires, absolutely. But I realized right then and there that I vastly prefered to drive a lower, lighter, more balanced chassis in the winter because of control.

The m3 is a wonderful platform for winter driving with the exception of clearance and front bumper height. Everything else it is well suited for. It's a great RWD platform, a great rear diff platform, and it's wheelbase and balance is well suited.

The only things you need to do are:

1. Have the right tires for your environment
2. Leave the car in efficient mode
3. Leave DSC or at least MDM on
4. Use your right foot very lightly
5. Learn some basics of how the vehicle both loses control and regains it by practicing in a snowy and open parking lot when an opportunity presents itself. Get comfortable with those reactions necessary to get where you want when the vehicle loses control.

AWD/4wd offers only two real benefits in the winter:

1. It's much harder to get completely stuck or unable to accelerate compared to RWD/FWD
2. In an open road situation if you start to slide or lose traction at all, a slight increase in throttle can pull you back on track.

It does not benefit braking or turning in limited-space environments, which is where things are most frequently truly dangerous.

Joe

P.s. I've owned and LOVED the awd systems on two subarus, my wife's 535xit, and the 4wd system on my prior jeep wrangler. And I really enjoy the ability in AWD to not worry much about accelerative traction in dry or wet from a stop or in a turn. But in exchange for those benefits you gain weight, lose engine efficiency (power to the wheels), and lose fuel economy.

Well said. Follow his/others advice like this and you should be just fine.

I'm also coming from a 335 xDrive with snow tires and I was nervous about switching to the M3 in the winter. So far, through a few small to medium ice and snowstorms it has been just fine. I'm very surprised how stable and easy to drive this car can be in the snow.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by purdyawesome

Pulled out of a resort parking lot this morning in small town in WI. Having been kept in a covered valet garage overnight this was the first snow my M3 had ever seen. Slid around a bit in the lot and struggled more than I would have expected on the public road for the first few hundred
feet. Total accumulation of maybe 1.5", 20 degrees F, snowpacked roads.... After a 1/4mi on the public road, we slowed to about 12mph to make a slow left hand turn into a nice shopping center for a late breakfast. My car immediately began spinning a 360 all the way to the point that I was pointed back exactly in the direction of original travel. Rather than maneuver back around into the shopping center, I just gassed her up and continued right back along- said the first thing that came to mind to my wife, "well, must be a sign. the food must suck". Followed by nervous laughter as a I knew I had a 2hr drive ahead of me. The Pirelli Sottozero's on my car weren't exactly confidence inspiring this morning but surprisingly, once on the highway, we didn't experience another hiccup for the duration of our trip. Left me thinking- are snow tires on these cars more, "slick road, cold/wet condition-geared" than they are actually functional in the snow? Moral of the story is, it was more sketchy in the snow than I hoped/expected with a proper high-end snow-purposed tire!

It's your tires... very heavily weighted to dry road performance. I had similar experiences with PA3 and ditched them.

[JerryVH]

I just got THE best winter wheel + tire package for my new M3 for those snowy New York days and nights ...

a 2010 Subaru Outback.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by JerryVH

I just got THE best winter wheel + tire package for my new M3 for those snowy New York days and nights ...

a 2010 Subaru Outback.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So anyway, Falafel, tell us more about your M3 order? What options did you select and when do expect to take delivery?

It's a delicate situation. Don't want to jinx it.

[dhoggm3]

Today was my first chance to drive the M3 in snow with 4 Blizzaks, and it was delightful! It's the most predictable car I've ever driven in snow (nannies off of course) and it was virtually unstoppable. It was fun blowing by the terrified Subaru entering the interstate, as well.

If you DON'T drive this car in the snow, you're missing out on a quality slice of life. I recommend you re-think your decision.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

Today was my first chance to drive the M3 in snow with 4 Blizzaks, and it was delightful! It's the most predictable car I've ever driven in snow (nannies off of course) and it was virtually unstoppable. It was fun blowing by the terrified Subaru entering the interstate, as well.

If you DON'T drive this car in the snow, you're missing out on a quality slice of life. I recommend you re-think your decision.

Was it WS series or LM?

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

Today was my first chance to drive the M3 in snow with 4 Blizzaks, and it was delightful! It's the most predictable car I've ever driven in snow (nannies off of course) and it was virtually unstoppable. It was fun blowing by the terrified Subaru entering the interstate, as well.

I'm sorry, but given the same driver and snow tires in the snow, that Subaru will be blowing by the terrified M4 in pretty much every case. It's simply a joke to compare the two in heavy snow when the skill of the driver and the tires are matched between the two cars.

[alms21]

Unless you are cramped for storage/garage space and can only have one car, I just don't understand the rationale to drive a car like an M3/M4 in the snow. A 120K mile Grand Cherokee, 4Runner, et al will run you $10K and cost next to nothing to insure.........plus if you need to make a run to the Home Depot you have something to haul shit in. I've had my '04 AWD 4Runner Ltd for three years now (bought it used) and has 150k miles on it. Just couldn't imagine not having it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by alms21

Unless you are cramped for storage/garage space and can only have one car, I just don't understand the rationale to drive a car like an M3/M4 in the snow. A 120K mile Grand Cherokee, 4Runner, et al will run you $10K and cost next to nothing to insure.........plus if you need to make a run to the Home Depot you have something to haul shit in. I've had my '04 AWD 4Runner Ltd for three years now (bought it used) and has 150k miles on it. Just couldn't imagine not having it.

Garage space is certainly part of it - in the typical single family home there are two spots in the garage and two drivers' cars to occupy them. Obviously there are plenty of homes with more space than that, but then you are usually in for more square footage of living space as well, and not everyone needs or wants the larger home to maintain.

But even if we ignore that, it's a matter of embracing the M3 (and M4) for the jack of all trades that it is. It's as capable (more arguably, given the LSD) as a 3 Series sDrive so why make it a garage queen? Regardless of it's level of performance or drive type, parking a sedan of any make for months of its life feels a lot stranger to me than putting on the proper tires and using it year round.

To again address the original topic, we received more winter weather last night and the region woke up to roads covered in about an inch of snow. Low temps made the salt less effective than it otherwise would have been. I have to say that the F80 performed admirably again. In fact, at this point, I can't think of any significant way it is more difficult to pilot than my E9x M3 was in the winter. As others have pointed out, the chassis is so balanced and sorted that you quickly become comfortable with how consistent and predictable it is. For example, I did a few lane changes at speed with my foot on the accelerator, and the car cut right through the small ridge of slushy snow in between the lanes with very little drama.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Garage space is certainly part of it - in the typical single family home there are two spots in the garage and two drivers' cars to occupy them. Obviously there are plenty of homes with more space than that, but then you are usually in for more square footage of living space as well, and not everyone needs or wants the larger home to maintain.

But even if we ignore that, it's a matter of embracing the M3 (and M4) for the jack of all trades that it is. It's as capable (more arguably, given the LSD) as a 3 Series sDrive so why make it a garage queen? Regardless of it's level of performance or drive type, parking a sedan of any make for months of its life feels a lot stranger to me than putting on the proper tires and using it year round.

To again address the original topic, we received more winter weather last night and the region woke up to roads covered in about an inch of snow. Low temps made the salt less effective than it otherwise would have been. I have to say that the F80 performed admirably again. In fact, at this point, I can't think of any significant way it is more difficult to pilot than my E9x M3 was in the winter. As others have pointed out, the chassis is so balanced and sorted that you quickly become comfortable with how consistent and predictable it is. For example, I did a few lane changes at speed with my foot on the accelerator, and the car cut right through the small ridge of slushy snow in between the lanes with very little drama.

Even if I only had a two car garage, I'd still have the beater. It would sit outside in the conditions. I intend to drive my M4 roughly 80%+ of the time. It would not be a garage queen. As I have mentioned before, if I was looking for a fun weekend car/garage queen, I would not buy an M3/4. I'd get a C7 Vette, 991, Boxster, etc.

For instance today in MD we got a little bit of snow. I would not even think of driving the M in the snow given that I have an AWD in the stable. That does not mean the M is a garage queen, it just means it will "sit it out" today. I also use the 4Runner to haul my dog from time to time and for work site visits/Home Depot trips. Different strokes.

Nice to hear the M performed to your liking in the snow today

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

To again address the original topic, we received more winter weather last night and the region woke up to roads covered in about an inch of snow. Low temps made the salt less effective than it otherwise would have been. I have to say that the F80 performed admirably again. In fact, at this point, I can't think of any significant way it is more difficult to pilot than my E9x M3 was in the winter. As others have pointed out, the chassis is so balanced and sorted that you quickly become comfortable with how consistent and predictable it is. For example, I did a few lane changes at speed with my foot on the accelerator, and the car cut right through the small ridge of slushy snow in between the lanes with very little drama.

I think we can all agree on the fact that, with some practice and driver skill (with winter tires) it is usable in light snow/winter weather. Implying, like some people in the thread, that it can get you to work regardless of snow fall/weather conditions, like my RS4 could (and I wouldn't even for a minute suggest that car could do it regardless of conditions), is just plain naive. Certainly implying that you can blow past an AWD winter tire equipped car in anything above light snow, on un-plowed roads, is ludicrous and misleading.

[dhoggm3]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

I think we can all agree on the fact that, with some practice and driver skill (with winter tires) it is usable in light snow/winter weather. Implying, like some people in the thread, that it can get you to work regardless of snow fall/weather conditions, like my RS4 could (and I wouldn't even for a minute suggest that car could do it regardless of conditions), is just plain naive. Certainly implying that you can blow past an AWD winter tire equipped car in anything above light snow, on un-plowed roads, is ludicrous and misleading.

I stated that it was fun blowing past a terrified driver Subaru. This is a fact. I made no implication as to the overcome car's tire spec, driver skill or otherwise; that is something that folks on lists like this do all by themselves.

As as for driving a beater Cherokee for winter, my simple answer is "Never!" I abhor driving trucks and SUV's (just me) and I love the tail-out attitude that's so easy to control in the M3. If the snow is really deep, I might drive my wife's 328i X-drive instead. She won't take it out in heavy snow anyway.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

I think we can all agree on the fact that, with some practice and driver skill (with winter tires) it is usable in light snow/winter weather. Implying, like some people in the thread, that it can get you to work regardless of snow fall/weather conditions, like my RS4 could (and I wouldn't even for a minute suggest that car could do it regardless of conditions), is just plain naive. Certainly implying that you can blow past an AWD winter tire equipped car in anything above light snow, on un-plowed roads, is ludicrous and misleading.

The part in bold makes no sense as it is written. You directly contradicted yourself with the parenthetical. Not sure what you are trying to say, but I'm sure you know an RS4 is no Unimog so I can't figure out what your point was supposed to be.

I do not see anyone claiming that the F8x, nor any other vehicle for that matter, can get you to work regardless of conditions, so that's a red herring if that's your assertion.

The fact is that an M3 can be used utterly successfully as a daily driver year round as many of us who used ours each day throughout last winter's record breaking snow falls and low temperatures can attest to. It will not be the single best vehicle on the market to fill that role, but it is nevertheless far from the worst.

The big irony in all of this is that the M3/M4 cause such heated debates when it comes to winter driving, yet no one seems to give a second thought about the fact that the vast majority of passenger cars (note: *passenger cars* - I am not referring to all of the light trucks out there) driven in the winter are FWD (i.e. non-AWD) with all season tires. Not one of these vehicles is better suited for the task of driving in bad winter weather than an M3 with snow tires, yet no one wants to jump all over the drivers of the dozens of makes and models that comprise the huge set of vehicles we'll encounter on the road this winter. Could it be that people are simply agitated and bothered by the fact that an M3, which is known for being a great performance vehicle, actually has other practical uses too? I certainly believe there's an element of that present in these discussions. For anyone out there trying to rationalize why an M3 won't work for them in their situation, the cold hard truth about how versatile and capable it is must be tough to swallow.

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The part in bold makes no sense as it is written. You directly contradicted yourself with the parenthetical. Not sure what you are trying to say, but I'm sure you know an RS4 is no Unimog so I can't figure out what your point was supposed to be.

Sorry, english is my second language so I am not always clear.. To be more specific, what I meant was that if an AWD car with snow tires cannot get me to work in any condition that I would encounter in a metropolitan (northern climate) state, then an M3/4 certainly won't, and hence, should not be considered a "daily driver" for (some) of those that need to get to work regardless of the weather. (or maybe I should learn how to drive, ;P ) My issue is with the claim that it can be driven in snow as a "daily driver"... not by all, is my point.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The fact is that an M3 can be used utterly successfully as a daily driver year round as many of us who used ours each day throughout last winter's record breaking snow falls and low temperatures can attest to. It will not be the single best vehicle on the market to fill that role, but it is nevertheless far from the worst.

It can be considered an (almost) daily driver, but, as you mention, there are far better cars out there that fill that role (and even fill in the gaps/weather the M4 would not work in). We both agree that the M3/4 can be used successfully in light snow. However, as the snow gets deeper and the conditions worsen, your performance envelope diminishes relative to an AWD car.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The big irony in all of this is that the M3/M4 cause such heated debates when it comes to winter driving, yet no one seems to give a second thought about the fact that the vast majority of passenger cars (note: *passenger cars* - I am not referring to all of the light trucks out there) driven in the winter are FWD (i.e. non-AWD) with all season tires. Not one of these vehicles is better suited for the task of driving in bad winter weather than an M3 with snow tires, yet no one wants to jump all over the drivers of the dozens of makes and models that comprise the huge set of vehicles we'll encounter on the road this winter. Could it be that people are simply agitated and bothered by the fact that an M3, which is know for being a great performance vehicle, actually has other practical uses too? I certainly believe there's an element of that present in these discussions. For anyone out there trying to rationalize why an M3 won't work for them in their situation, the cold hard truth about how versatile and capable it is must be tough to swallow.

I thought (correct me if I am wrong), FWD is easier to drive in the snow given the same driver ability and tires? Something about pulling a weight vs pushing a weight, and the centering forces ??

Anyway, I agree, it is a perfectly practical car, that can be used in up to average snowy conditions. It certainly isn't a disaster, but (depending on your city, I suppose) one should not pretend you can get somewhere regardless of the weather. (although I suppose that statement too is open to interpretation.. how far do you need to go? What do you mean by 'get there' ? At what speed ? Are there any hills ? How steep ? Is there no salt areas on your way ? etc etc etc)

[purdyawesome]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

What a scare! This seems very realistic, and hits pretty close to home.


Other members make it seem like driving a high powered RWD car like this is no sweat. Of course there will be problems, and you had better be anticipating them every second of the way. That's how you ... avoid problems. You will not have enough warning when they happen. It goes from zero to stuck-in-a-ditch pretty quick.


So ... was the food any good?

Haha no- we literally just kept driving and skipped a meal. Figured the roads were just going to continue to deteriorate. I had another chance to drive in the snow this morning. Bottom line- this car is not good in the snow. I have good snow tires and a manual transmission. It's possible, yes. Practical? Hell no. Studded tires would be nice. Choices were quite limited at the time of purchase....

[purdyawesome]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

You did a 360 on winter tires when you began a left turn with dsc on?

Sounds like you were on ice to me. That's not normal behavior even with decent all seasons.

Yep- slow 90 degree left turn and my rear end swung out to the right. Did a counter-clockwise 360. Was really no danger- just glad there was nothing to slide into. My trip to the train station this morning just West of Chicago wasn't any better (no 360's but not much traction). Bottom line- I wish I had been in the financial situation to have been able to keep my super modded Wrangler Unlimited to use in the winter when I picked up my M3 a few months back. Had just bought a new x5 and it just wasn't in the cards... That Wrangler positively slayed the snow.

[purdyawesome]

Originally Posted by boi222

I have to agree.. Something doesn't sound right .. Did you give any sudden gas?

No sudden gas...

[minn19]

Originally Posted by purdyawesome

Haha no- we literally just kept driving and skipped a meal. Figured the roads were just going to continue to deteriorate. I had another chance to drive in the snow this morning. Bottom line- this car is not good in the snow. I have good snow tires and a manual transmission. It's possible, yes. Practical? Hell no. Studded tires would be nice. Choices were quite limited at the time of purchase....

What kind of snow tires?

[purdyawesome]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

I'm sorry, but given the same driver and snow tires in the snow, that Subaru will be blowing by the terrified M4 in pretty much every case. It's simply a joke to compare the two in heavy snow when the skill of the driver and the tires are matched between the two cars.

Agree 100%.

[purdyawesome]

Originally Posted by minn19

What kind of snow tires?

Pirelli Sottozero 255/18 front, 265/18 rear on stock 513m 18's. You can see the setup pics under my profile