Who has driven an F8x M3/M4 in the snow? Describe your experiences

[gthal]

BIG snow today... 2 hour commute home (normally 15 minutes at most)... freezing rain, blowing snow. Lots of accidents and stuck cars. The Hakka R2 did really well. No problem going up very steep grades. Drove the car with DSC off the entire time and the car was super easy to control and modulate.

Here's a picture (my son had my iPhone) on the way home. This was a plowed highway... there were places where I was doing the plowing myself

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Ducfan

Strap on the boards!

I went with the pirelli's this year....and wide at that 255/275. I've had better setups but it works. Pic was from early Sunday morning when we got about 6". By the time I got back from the ski area we had another 6" on top of that.

I love that picture!

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by gthal

BIG snow today... 2 hour commute home (normally 15 minutes at most)... freezing rain, blowing snow. Lots of accidents and stuck cars. The Hakka R2 did really well. No problem going up very steep grades. Drove the car with DSC off the entire time and the car was super easy to control and modulate.

Here's a picture (my son had my iPhone) on the way home. This was a plowed highway... there were places where I was doing the plowing myself

I am secretly rooting for you. This is great to hear and I'll be sure to check out the Hakka's.

[coolmody]

In my experience the top 2 factors for winter driving are:

1. Tires
2. Driver skill

The drive train matters, but not to the extent that most people believe. I have some numbers below to back this up. The times were from an ice racing event I compete in. Look at the drivetrains and cars that make up the top 10 list. Also note where I ranked (#22). The top 10 cars are running some pretty substantial studs in their tires. Most of the guys trailer their cars to the lake or swap them when they get there. They can't be driven on the streets. I had a chance to drive the winning car (BMW 318is) and it has nothing special done to it with the exception of tires. In a proper drivers hands the car is a beast. In my hands it was still much quicker than my F80.

Driver skill is also very important. Take a look at position 11 and 13. 1997 FWD Toyota Tercel with no studs. The drivers embarrassed a lot of us!

Pos # Class Vehicle Raw Time Score
1 36 RWDSTUD BMW 318is 201.585 100.000
2 44 RWDSTUD 1985 Toyota Corolla 202.559 99.519
3 32 FWDSTUD 2004 acura integra e 209.003 96.451
4 57 FWDSTUD 2015 Runamuck Shitbo 211.604 95.265
5 34 AWDSTUD 1995 Subaru STI 211.944 95.112
6 170 RWDSTUD 13 Scion Frs 213.456 94.439
7 467 FWDSTUD Ford Focus 217.215 92.804
8 55 AWDSTUD 2005 Subaru Impreza 222.503 90.599
9 404 RWDSTUD 2013 Toyota Frs 227.054 88.783
10 73 RWDSTUD 1996 Mazda Miata 231.100 87.228
11 80 FWD 97 Toyota Tercel 233.709 86.255
12 95 FWDSTUD 1999 Mazda Miata 237.068 85.033
13 33 FWD 97 Toyota Tercel 241.839 83.355
14 69 FWDSTUD Ford Escort GT 249.150 80.909
15 18 AWDSTUD 2002 Subaru Impreza 249.315 80.856
16 414 AWDSTUD 2015 SUBARU WRX 249.686 80.735
17 56 AWDSTUD 2009 Mitsubishi Lanc 250.159 80.583
18 96 FWDSTUD green 253.009 79.675
19 82 AWDSTUD 2011 Subaru Sti 255.938 78.763
20 455 RWDSTUD 1998 BMW 328iS 257.435 78.305
21 26 AWDSTUD 1999 Subaru WRX/STi 259.060 77.814
22 808 RWDSTUD 2015 BMW M3 263.296 76.562
23 84 FWDSTUD 1984 Volkswagen Scir 263.800 76.416
24 14 AWDSTUD 2005 subaru wrx 267.428 75.379
25 59 AWDSTUD Blue Subaru WRX STI 271.503 74.248
26 459 FWDSTUD 1984 VW Scirocco 274.567 73.419
27 83 AWDSTUD 2000 Subaru Impreza 278.379 72.414
28 22 RWDSTUD 2003 Mazda Miata 279.729 72.064
29 400 AWDSTUD 2010 Subaru WRX 279.827 72.039
30 456 RWDSTUD 1986 Porsche 944 n/a 284.956 70.743
31 42 AWDSTUD 1998 Subaru Legacy 288.199 69.946
32 7 AWD 2004 Subaru WRX 288.571 69.856
33 167 AWDSTUD 2007 Subaru Forester 289.956 69.523
34 452 AWD 2002 Subaru Impreza 290.809 69.319
35 442 RWD 2013 Subaru BRZ 291.664 69.115
36 604 RWD 2013 Scion FRS 293.116 68.773
37 8 AWD 1991 nissan GTIR 294.804 68.379
38 13 AWD 1990 nissan GTiR 298.184 67.604
39 425 AWD 1994 Subaru Impreza 299.585 67.288
40 19 AWD 2012 Subaru Sti 302.290 66.686
41 76 AWD 1998 Subaru WRX STI 302.761 66.582
42 10 AWDSTUD 2012 304.585 66.183
43 93 RWDSTUD 1993 Nissan Hardbody 307.338 65.591
44 406 AWDSTUD 2007 Subaru Forester 307.431 65.571
45 88 AWD 2005 Subaru Legacy G 328.689 61.330
46 9 AWD 2004 Subaru WRX 341.950 58.952
47 446 AWDSTUD 2009 Subaru Impress DNS 0.000
48 465 AWD 2007 Subaru WRX STI DNS 0.000


A short clip of the track and conditions from the air.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by coolmody

In my experience the top 2 factors for winter driving are:

1. Tires
2. Driver skill

The drive train matters, but not to the extent that most people believe. I have some numbers below to back this up. The times were from an ice racing event I compete in. Look at the drivetrains and cars that make up the top 10 list. Also note where I ranked (#22). The top 10 cars are running some pretty substantial studs in their tires. Most of the guys trailer their cars to the lake or swap them when they get there. They can't be driven on the streets. I had a chance to drive the winning car (BMW 318is) and it has nothing special done to it with the exception of tires. In a proper drivers hands the car is a beast. In my hands it was still much quicker than my F80.

Driver skill is also very important. Take a look at position 11 and 13. 1997 FWD Toyota Tercel with no studs. The drivers embarrassed a lot of us!

Awesome. Thanks for sharing this!

[F80silverstone]

Originally Posted by Ducfan

Strap on the boards!



I went with the pirelli's this year....and wide at that 255/275. I've had better setups but it works. Pic was from early Sunday morning when we got about 6". By the time I got back from the ski area we had another 6" on top of that.

What roof rack set up is that???

[curehead]

Originally Posted by F80silverstone

What roof rack set up is that???

looks like the steel roof....

[gthal]

Falafel... The RWD F8X with good snow tires is manageable and fine in bad weather. Clearly, however, in bad weather I would choose to take my wife's Highlander as it is that much better again. It also has winter tires.

There was an X5 stuck at the bottom of my street this morning. I'm presuming it had all season tires but I don't know. I drove past it in my M4. Coming home last night, there was an AWD Ford Escape stuck on a very steep incline to my street... I'm assuming all seasons again. Again, I went past it in my M4 but I had a decent run and knew what I was doing.

Having said that, I would probably still choose my wife's AWD vehicle and all seasons in snow. On ice, maybe I wouldn't. I would choose my wife's AWD with winters in ALL conditions. However, with very good winter tires (not performance winters which are only marginally better than all seasons IMO), you can easily manage all but the very worst conditions in the M. Last night was a really bad storm with ice, freezing rain, etc and I was out in the worst of it without issue. Would I have chosen the Highlander if I could have? ABSOLUTELY. Was I fine? Yep.

[F80silverstone]

Originally Posted by curehead

looks like the steel roof....

Yep. Duh.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by gthal

Falafel... The RWD F8X with good snow tires is manageable and fine in bad weather. Clearly, however, in bad weather I would choose to take my wife's Highlander as it is that much better again. It also has winter tires.

There was an X5 stuck at the bottom of my street this morning. I'm presuming it had all season tires but I don't know. I drove past it in my M4. Coming home last night, there was an AWD Ford Escape stuck on a very steep incline to my street... I'm assuming all seasons again. Again, I went past it in my M4 but I had a decent run and knew what I was doing.

Having said that, I would probably still choose my wife's AWD vehicle and all seasons in snow. On ice, maybe I wouldn't. I would choose my wife's AWD with winters in ALL conditions. However, with very good winter tires (not performance winters which are only marginally better than all seasons IMO), you can easily manage all but the very worst conditions in the M. Last night was a really bad storm with ice, freezing rain, etc and I was out in the worst of it without issue. Would I have chosen the Highlander if I could have? ABSOLUTELY. Was I fine? Yep.

Excellent. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences and perspective. I am in total agreement with you, and am enthused to hear your winter trials in the f80 have been safe so far. It gives me a some amount of relief.

I'm sure I missed it, but which winter tires have you been running?

EDIT: Ok, I think I got it. They seem to be the Hakka R2. I'll remember that.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by gthal

Falafel... The RWD F8X with good snow tires is manageable and fine in bad weather. Clearly, however, in bad weather I would choose to take my wife's Highlander as it is that much better again. It also has winter tires.

There was an X5 stuck at the bottom of my street this morning. I'm presuming it had all season tires but I don't know. I drove past it in my M4. Coming home last night, there was an AWD Ford Escape stuck on a very steep incline to my street... I'm assuming all seasons again. Again, I went past it in my M4 but I had a decent run and knew what I was doing.

Having said that, I would probably still choose my wife's AWD vehicle and all seasons in snow. On ice, maybe I wouldn't. I would choose my wife's AWD with winters in ALL conditions. However, with very good winter tires (not performance winters which are only marginally better than all seasons IMO), you can easily manage all but the very worst conditions in the M. Last night was a really bad storm with ice, freezing rain, etc and I was out in the worst of it without issue. Would I have chosen the Highlander if I could have? ABSOLUTELY. Was I fine? Yep.

Great post and agreed. My wife's X1 has xDrive with winters on it. That would be my go to as well if I had to go out in very bad weather and have a choice between the two.

I agree with gthal, I have enough confidence in the M 3/4 to get through most snow/ice storms unless they are very severe. In that case, as has been noted, almost nobody is going anywhere anyway.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Excellent. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences and perspective. I am in total agreement with you, and am enthused to hear your winter trials in the f80 have been safe so far. It gives me a some amount of relief.

I'm sure I missed it, but which winter tires have you been running?

EDIT: Ok, I think I got it. They seem to be the Hakka R2. I'll remember that.

Yep... Hakkapelitta R2. I erred on the side of better winter performance and have been very impressed by these so far. It's all about the compromise and, for me, it was about knowing I'd be good if I get caught out in bad weather... like yesterday... rather than being able to have great dry road performance.

[mkoesel]

Moderator Note:

I moved some posts since the spirit of this thread is to share experiences of driving an F8x M3/M4 and comment on them, and some discussion was veering into a sort of religious war on driving in the winter in general.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1087046

Originally Posted by curehead

looks like the steel roof....

Definitely is (no rack mounts with the CF roof). I too am curious which one it is - it doesn't look like the OEM one to me, but I could be wrong. I am getting one this spring myself, probably the Whispbar, but this one looks good too.

[Ducfan]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Moderator Note:

I moved some posts since the spirit of this thread is to share experiences of driving an F8x M3/M4 and comment on them, and some discussion was veering into a sort of religious war on driving in the winter in general.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1087046



Definitely is (no rack mounts with the CF roof). I too am curious which one it is - it doesn't look like the OEM one to me, but I could be wrong. I am getting one this spring myself, probably the Whispbar, but this one looks good too.

Yes steel roof
The OEM BMW cross rail system ( btw I reused this item that I had originally purchased for my e90 M3 - fits fine)
And the Whispbar ski/board holder

The whole thing looks pretty sweet - and since I only have an hour or two drive to our local slopes the boards don't get too cruded up. I'd like to get the really sleek enclosed carrier from Whispar.

[Ducfan]

Ok with a healthy dose of heavy lake effect snow over an extended number of days I can give my opinion of my M3 on performance snow tires versus my wife's X5 on all seasons. I commute every day over back country roads in my M3 but don't really drive the X5 a lot.

It is definitely easier to make swift progress in the X5 and definitely less suceptable to deep snow problems. Deep slushy snow that I barely get through in the M3 doesn't seem to be as much problem in the X5. However once you get past"swift progress" and get to quite fast, fast enough to raise an eyebrow, the M3 on snows does much better. The predictability and recovery of the M3 near and post slide is way way better as well as braking. The rev matching manual really helps prevent locking the rears on aggressive decel.

IMO it comes down to how much fun you want to have versus how willing you are to risk being stuck. My wife gets the X5, I get the M3.....but always carry a mobile phone

[Chris H.]

Originally Posted by gthal

Yep... Hakkapelitta R2. I erred on the side of better winter performance and have been very impressed by these so far. It's all about the compromise and, for me, it was about knowing I'd be good if I get caught out in bad weather... like yesterday... rather than being able to have great dry road performance.

Couldn't agree more with the R2s. I have them on my 335is and have been very impressed. I plan to run them on my future M4 as well.

Chris

[mwalter14]

Having owned 4x 3-series BMW's, and driven 6 winter seasons in Calgary, Alberta, my cars and I have seen more then our fair share of treacherous conditions. Everything from ice, 30cm of fresh powder, slush and sometimes pools of standing water.

I can confidently say from experience these cars pose no more of an issue for winter driving then any other car on the road (x5, wrx, handful of FWD cars)

In fact, I would give the advantage to RWD cars in the winter as the are more predictable.

The one critical element however is winter tires. If you live ANYWHERE that snows and you have only one DD, then there is no question you require winter tires- Good ones at that.
From experience the best are Nokkian HAKK R2 (especially the studded version) and the X-Ice.

I do not own a M4 yet but did take a test drive in slush conditions and had no problems with traction, well yes there is minor slippage, you cant expect race track traction, but nothing unreasonable or worse than any other car on the road.

Hope this helps.

[Oh Captain My Captain]

And then there was this. Not sure what it proves, but shows the fun to be had.

[TomTarzian]

Finally got to drive our M3 in a little snow the night before last. We have the BMW 18" winter tire and wheel package. It felt very stable, even crossing from relatively poorly plowed lane to relatively poorly plowed lane at speed on a four lane highway.

God bless,
Tom

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by Oh Captain My Captain

And then there was this. Not sure what it proves, but shows the fun to be had.

It proves that there are at least two people with way too much time on their hands.

[woosolow]

Originally Posted by JerryVH

The arguments for putting snow tires on a BMW in NY are stronger than the argument against ... but here they are and I'm on the fence (despite getting stuck yesterday):

1. Just spent a bundle and now I have to spend $3K more? Enough already. I will only buy snow tires with new wheels.

5. Does it really snow THAT much in NY (Long Island) - I mean there are MAYBE 10 days when you can't drive with summer tires vs. 355 days when you can.

7. It's February already - only 6-7 more weeks to go and I'm clear

first of all, at first i really dont feel like to reply your post, u r totally different level... but at the end i can't hold my breath anymore lol ...
we are driving a $70K car and u assume everyone of us to cheap out for a set of snow tires? com'on dude.. are you freakin' serious, driving a m3 in Canada without snow tires on?

did you read carefully what OP said? he lives in canada and he also admits we got lots of snow here... if you live in (NY long island) then dont bother to join our discussion here as i repeat, OP lives in Canada and it SNOWS ALOT... not like 10 days or 355 days ... u r comparing an apple with a banana (totally off the topic)... so if either way, OP gonna gets a set of snow tires eventually, let say next year, why dont he buys it earlier to have a safe winter?! the earlier u get them, the more you can enjoy'em. as simple as that.

furthermore, a set of michelin PA4 / bridgestone blizzaks cost you less than $1,000 (you get rebate and stuff as well)... with a set of 18" BBS another $1,300? so you are looking at around $2,000ish for the cost of a set of 18" snow tires with rims.... the smaller it is, the better it cuts the snow... WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST "LOOKS" in winter and stick with 19" ones... MANY of us on this forum got this bundle and COME ON 11 pages long....
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...ghlight=winter



2. My wife has X3 which I can use occasionally + I can work from home if absolutely necessary

not everyone is flexible like you... x3 wont serve u more than 4/5 yrs with a set of 4season tires... good luck with that... some of my customers got a x5 and they THOUGHT it was a AWD rock in the snow bla bla bla.... end up he hit right into d other guy's bumper this year and he blamed the tires had no traction and shit.... 4season can't survive at extreme cold weather, not even mention about the performance ones.... and SORRY i need to recap what i posted earlier to remind you again...
do NOT inconvenience OTHERS just because you THINK it is ok to drive with summer tires...


3. Big hassle of the switch.
4. Where to store summer tires in Winter and winter tires in Summer - they take up a lot of space!

can you further elaborate how 'big' hassle it could be? just 2 times a year... as other fellow member @myzmak mentioned.... its easy to swap or you may just spend 50 bucks and ask ppl to do it for you... dont u said your wife got a x3? u can fully utilize her trunk to load the tires up for you BAMG!!! easy as 1 2 3

in regards to storage, dont ask us WHERE to store your tires?! that's your own concern... we can only suggest the best alternatives to you but dont question us =D thank you for your cooperation.

u may try luck and ask dealer can keep it for free as @myzmak suggested. for single / dual garage, tire rack is what u need to do if you have limited space...


TADA there you go....again, it's easy as 1 2 3


6. I just got the car and the 19" rims look so good.
when you have accident, 19" rims will not make you look good on your insurance record / wallet god bless you

@JerryVH please refer to blue font for my responses

[woosolow]

Originally Posted by myzmak

2 questions likely explain/account for your disappointment:

- what winter driving experience were you expecting?

- what are your winter driving needs? (Daily or otherwise)

haha he expects sth like this?