M3/M4 vs W205 C63 AMG

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by mstmng

maybe u did not understand him right way or he expressed himself in a wrong way
what i understood from what i hv read is that he meant 2015 engines for c63 (4L TT) suck

anyways, its your fight

and if you compare tuned cars, you are laughable at best yourself
f** m5/m6 ecu's are unbreakable atm, so its pointless to compare properly reflashed-tuned merc's ecu with piggy back M tuned ecu's

check stock for stock m5 with e63s

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by bimmerj

Exactly.

The 4-MATIC S Model is the benchmark, as far as the E63 goes.

The RWD standard and S versions were limited release models.

[lux]

Based on the spy videos and articles here is my speculation:

C63
+Faster in a straight line
+Better sounding engine/exhaust than F80 (worse than old C63)
+Nicer interior (subjective)
-MCT transmission < DCT
-Lighter than old C63 but still heavier than F80
-Exterior styling < F80 (subjective)
+/- Road/Track handling

Looking forward to the inevitable magazine comparisons.

[YungDro]

in uk we dont have AWD E63's. RWD only.

[agentm]

Originally Posted by yaymitch

Hey, Fan-boy!!

Why do you say this? Ever driven an AMG? I am okay with your opinion, but at least explain your reasoning. Or not...

First I find MB are ugly cars.

Putting a big block in a car to make it fast do not impress me. Yes, I drove almost every model. They all felt like a boat to me. Yes they are fast but so what? Speed isn't everything.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by lux

Based on the spy videos and articles here is my speculation:

C63
+Faster in a straight line
+Better sounding engine/exhaust than F80 (worse than old C63)
+Nicer interior (subjective)
-MCT transmission < DCT
-Lighter than old C63 but still heavier than F80
-Exterior styling < F80 (subjective)
+/- Road/Track handling

Looking forward to the inevitable magazine comparisons.

I agree with your speculation. Except for the exterior styling portion (which of course, is subjective).

Originally Posted by YungDro

in uk we dont have AWD E63's. RWD only.

That's a pity. They're something else.

Originally Posted by agentm

Fist I find MB are ugly cars.

Putting a big block in a car to make it fast do not impress me. Yes, I drove almost every model. They all felt like a boat to me. Yes they are fast but so what? Speed isn't everything.

Recently, Chris Harris was asked whether he would want an E90 M3 or an LCI C63 as a daily driver. He chose the C63. AMG has come a long way as far as driving dynamics are concerned. They're no longer merely straight-line luxury cruise missiles, period.

For example, the LCI C63 is much more than just a drag strip monster (so was the pre-LCI, but the '12+ models got a new transmission, new suspension, etc.). It has incredible steering feel, especially at turn-in. It didn't outrun the E9X M3 by 4 seconds on the 'ring solely because of its more powerful engine.

Same goes for the LCI W212 E63 S model. Tons of grip, lovely steering feel, etc.

I'm curious regarding which models you drove that felt like "boats."

Regarding the styling, that is personal preference. No reason to buy one if you don't like the way any of them look.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Recently, AMG chief Tobias Moers was asked if there would ever be a 6-cylinder C63 AMG.

His response: Never.

I think a turbo 4-cylinder in something like the M2 would be cool though. The A45/CLA45/GLA45 have been successful with that formula thus far.

That is what is wrong with AMG. You don't need 8 cylinders. That is lazy and boring. You need obsessive engineering. That is genius.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by YungDro

in uk we dont have AWD E63's. RWD only.

You guys are lucky.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Recently, AMG chief Tobias Moers was asked if there would ever be a 6-cylinder C63 AMG.

His response: Never.

That is what is wrong with AMG. You don't need 8 cylinders. That is lazy and boring. You need obsessive engineering. That is genius.

Wrong?! That is what is right with AMG.

Bless them for putting a 4.0L twin turbo in the C63. Fantastic having that option in this segment.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by myzmak

That is what is wrong with AMG. You don't need 8 cylinders. That is lazy and boring. You need obsessive engineering. That is genius.

You mean like recently, when they created the most powerful 2.0L, 4-cylinder production engine ever? 360 horsepower from a 2.0L motor.

It's now in 3 different AMG models.

Also, the "lazy and boring" engineering that went into the M156 made it one of the most legendary, best-sounding normally aspirated V8 engines ever.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

You mean like recently, when they created the most powerful 2.0L, 4-cylinder production engine ever? 360 horsepower from a 2.0L motor.

It's now in 3 different AMG models.

Also, the "lazy and boring" engineering that went into the M156 made it one of the most legendary, best-sounding normally aspirated V8 engines ever.

No. The 4 cylinder is what is right with AMG (wasn't Benz bashing. I have one. Love it. Regret it isn't the E63...) That was the original point in the post/thread (which has now merged over here)

Engineering is great. But getting 400 hp from a V8 is, in this day and age, hardly revolutionary. It is lazy and the easy way to get power

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by myzmak

No. The 4 cylinder is what is right with AMG (wasn't Benz bashing. I have one. Love it. Regret it isn't the E63...) That was the original point in the post/thread (which has now merged over here)

Engineering is great. But getting 400 hp from a V8 is, in this day and age, hardly revolutionary. It is lazy and the easy way to get power

I just noticed that in your "Drives" line. I was like wait a second here haha.

Regarding the engineering, it all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I love the sounds and copious amounts of torque that go hand-in-hand with a large displacement, normally aspirated engine. The motor revs freely and the throttle response is sharp and linear. I also enjoy how the engine rumbles and shakes the car when idling at a stoplight.

The engine and exhaust sounds that emanate from the M156 and M159 are intoxicating. You just can't get that with small displacement, high strung engines. Look at the way sound has suffered in F1.

Also, AMG was ultimately able to squeeze more than 500 horsepower out of the 6.2L. I unlocked that much power with my tune alone.

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by myzmak

No. The 4 cylinder is what is right with AMG (wasn't Benz bashing. I have one. Love it. Regret it isn't the E63...) That was the original point in the post/thread (which has now merged over here)

Engineering is great. But getting 400 hp from a V8 is, in this day and age, hardly revolutionary. It is lazy and the easy way to get power

You must be joking. AMG is about engineering. Do you follow F1?

[elitex]

Wow, extremely biased opinions on both sides!

Here's my take. I've walked into a MB dealership every time I was ready for a change. Driven C63 2 and 4 door, E63 old and E63s new.
They are nice cars and very nicely built, no doubt. I just don't like their interiors.

I've almost pulled the trigger on C63 twice but ended up backing out. I almost pulled the trigger the third time around for the edition 507. Some of the things that pushed me away was.

1-No DCT!!!!!
2- terrible gas mileage
3- tiny wheels and tires
4- feels like a typical c class when you're just puttering around, I am sure an exhaust would fix that.
5- softer than the M3
6- didn't like the infotainment system

With all this said, I am looking forward to the TTV8 in the new C63. Maybe I'll convert this time around.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

I just noticed that in your "Drives" line. I was like wait a second here haha.

Regarding the engineering, it all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I love the sounds and copious amounts of torque that go hand-in-hand with a large displacement, normally aspirated engine. The motor revs freely and the throttle response is sharp and linear. I also enjoy how the engine rumbles and shakes the car when idling at a stoplight.

The engine and exhaust sounds that emanate from the M156 and M159 are intoxicating. You just can't get that with small displacement, high strung engines. Look at the way sound has suffered in F1.

Also, AMG was ultimately able to squeeze more than 500 horsepower out of the 6.2L. I unlocked that much power with my tune alone.

My worry with AMG is that they are prone to excessive engineering instead of obsessive. There is a difference.

Think SLS Black - a ridiculous car that is nearly impossible for any normal driver to control. Great car? Sure.

....but (as a normal driver) I'd still take something engineered to be spectacular AND driveable - which is where (generally) M is ahead. That is the obsessive engineering that makes the 1M, possibly the M2, the M3, the M5, etc, such great cars.

When AMG tries to go simple and driveable, it doesnt quite work (see CLA, see A45, etc). They are better at building monster cars than they are precise and refined.

Not to say M doesn't have its problems. The M5 (though beautiful) may be a bit of a chunky-monkey.

....and, as my posts were originally on the "4 cylinder M3??" thread (and got moved over here) my original point was that I think there can be more fun in driving a smaller engine at its max than a large engine. That is why a proper hot hatch can be at least as smile-inducing (if not more) than a large engined beast. Put another way: the S63 is insanely fast. Would I rather drive an S63 or a Golf GTI? If for fun, the latter.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

You mean like recently, when they created the most powerful 2.0L, 4-cylinder production engine ever? 360 horsepower from a 2.0L motor.

It's now in 3 different AMG models.

Also, the "lazy and boring" engineering that went into the M156 made it one of the most legendary, best-sounding normally aspirated V8 engines ever.

That 4 cylinder is actually a bad example imo because of the numerous people citing the seemingly significant lag associated with it. I really have no problem with high performance 4's at all but if you're going to turbocharge the hell out of it like AMG did they should have done it right and minimized lag.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

You mean like recently, when they created the most powerful 2.0L, 4-cylinder production engine ever? 360 horsepower from a 2.0L motor.

It's now in 3 different AMG models.

Also, the "lazy and boring" engineering that went into the M156 made it one of the most legendary, best-sounding normally aspirated V8 engines ever.

Best sounding V8 ever? Hardly. It's good but it's not that good.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by myzmak

My worry with AMG is that they are prone to excessive engineering instead of obsessive. There is a difference.

Think SLS Black - a ridiculous car that is nearly impossible for any normal driver to control. Great car? Sure.

You must be thinking of the standard SLS. Because the SLS Black is a completely different car. Evo has a good review of how well the chassis is transformed from the standard car, how much composure it has. MotorTrend's Randy Pobst commented how stable and planted SLS Black feels.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

You must be thinking of the standard SLS. Because the SLS Black is a completely different car. Evo has a good review of how well the chassis is transformed from the standard car, how much composure it has. MotorTrend's Randy Pobst commented how stable and planted SLS Black feels.

....either that or I am losing my mind. (possible....)

I swear I remember a review (I thought from Top Gear?) that essentially said the SLS was a wonderfully unglued killing machine.....but maybe it was the SLS and not the Black.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by myzmak

....either that or I am losing my mind. (possible....)

I swear I remember a review (I thought from Top Gear?) that essentially said the SLS was a wonderfully unglued killing machine.....but maybe it was the SLS and not the Black.

Yeah the Top Gear episode where they couldn't keep the SLS from spinning was the standard SLS.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Yeah the Top Gear episode where they couldn't keep the SLS from spinning was the standard SLS.

Relieved to know I still have some of my marbles........thx.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by elitex

Best sounding V8 ever? Hardly. It's good but it's not that good.

One of the best. One of the best. Re-read my post.

And those aren't my words either.