ARMA SPEED
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-04-2018, 08:16 PM   #23
yjypm
Lieutenant
yjypm's Avatar
United_States
204
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4trix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Wonder if I can cancel my order because the labor time they gave is misleading.
VTT strikes again

12 additional hours of labor could add $1500 to $3000 for the job depending on what the hourly rate is.
If I'm spending over $2k on a SCH fix labor I'm going with the existing proven solutions.
Yeah I'm thinking the same. It's interesting, one guy on M4 FB group stated he was quoted 3K for parts and labor by MaxPSI. Not sure how credible that is as when I called MaxPSI, they quoted me $4200. And this is actually something I tried to get an answer here with no success on why would VTT solution be that much quicker to install. Drilling doesn't add extra 15-20hrs, so I'm not surprised when EAS posted their installation estimates.
I got quoted for $3200 for parts and labor for maxpsi solution here in SoCal.
__________________

Instagram:catpupu_f80
Appreciate 0
      12-04-2018, 08:23 PM   #24
avex8
Major
avex8's Avatar
297
Rep
1,332
Posts

Drives: 11 E92 m3, 15 F80 M3, GLC 63
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4trix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Wonder if I can cancel my order because the labor time they gave is misleading.
VTT strikes again

12 additional hours of labor could add $1500 to $3000 for the job depending on what the hourly rate is.
If I'm spending over $2k on a SCH fix labor I'm going with the existing proven solutions.
Yeah I'm thinking the same. It's interesting, one guy on M4 FB group stated he was quoted 3K for parts and labor by MaxPSI. Not sure how credible that is as when I called MaxPSI, they quoted me $4200. And this is actually something I tried to get an answer here with no success on why would VTT solution be that much quicker to install. Drilling doesn't add extra 15-20hrs, so I'm not surprised when EAS posted their installation estimates.
I got quoted for $3200 for parts and labor for maxpsi solution here in SoCal.
$3600 for gintani and 3200 for maxpsi. VTT cost almost the same with labor and parts, why risk it with VTT when there are 2 good solution out there already. I don't see any advantage using VTT. Everyone was excited and interested because we thought the overall cost will cut half which is not the case here.
Appreciate 1
      12-04-2018, 08:23 PM   #25
///BMW Junkie
Captain
///BMW Junkie's Avatar
United_States
301
Rep
827
Posts

Drives: AW M4
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Washington DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelrain View Post
20 hours of labor???
This was supposed to be 10 hours or so as far as I remember
What a disappointment to say the least
I don't see this being as that much cheaper than current solutions out
By the way great job EAS on the detailed installation overview
Worst case scenario would be losing an engine due to a SPH, being much more costly ($21K, not including labor at time of posting). Keyway-based solutions would be closer to ~30 hours, and requires drilling.

In comparison, it's a small price to pay for peace of mind.
So why exactly ~10 more hours for other solutions? Is it just because they require drilling, or is there something else involved in the process that differs compared to when installing the VTT kit?
__________________
Pure F82
Appreciate 0
      12-04-2018, 09:49 PM   #26
NickyC
Major General
NickyC's Avatar
9089
Rep
7,955
Posts

Drives: G82 in matrix, F82 in my heart
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jacked out of my mind

iTrader: (19)

Thanks for the fix and helping the community. With the high price however, anybody remaining stock and likely only keeping their cars for 2-3 years once the original warranty runs out should think about an extended BMW warranty for a couple thousand dollars more. That way everything is protected.
Appreciate 1
      12-04-2018, 11:17 PM   #27
///BMW Junkie
Captain
///BMW Junkie's Avatar
United_States
301
Rep
827
Posts

Drives: AW M4
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Washington DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Thanks for the fix and helping the community. With the high price however, anybody remaining stock and likely only keeping their cars for 2-3 years once the original warranty runs out should think about an extended BMW warranty for a couple thousand dollars more. That way everything is protected.
Agreed but then tuning is not really an option. I'd assume most owners that are looking at crank hub upgrades are not stock or wanting to tune.
__________________
Pure F82
Appreciate 3
Ghosn453.50
NickyC9088.50
M-Pilot4708.50
      12-05-2018, 07:03 AM   #28
sdstatestud88
Lieutenant
United_States
67
Rep
434
Posts

Drives: 2017 MW F80
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Jose

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4trix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Thanks for the fix and helping the community. With the high price however, anybody remaining stock and likely only keeping their cars for 2-3 years once the original warranty runs out should think about an extended BMW warranty for a couple thousand dollars more. That way everything is protected.
Agreed but then tuning is not really an option. I'd assume most owners that are looking at crank hub upgrades are not stock or wanting to tune.
Agreed
__________________
2017 Mineral White M3
Mods to COME
Appreciate 1
      12-05-2018, 08:43 AM   #29
coldsteelrain
@JRZF80
United_States
487
Rep
596
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: May 2018
Location: NJ

iTrader: (3)

So I just got an email from Vargas and they did confirm that this install takes no more than 10 hours and they can't control what other shops charge but if you go to their shop that's what they will charge for install. I asked them to review the install process that was done by EAS and see where the discrepancy in time install is or how they do it differently
Waiting on their response
Appreciate 1
FSociety3592.00
      12-05-2018, 08:51 AM   #30
sdstatestud88
Lieutenant
United_States
67
Rep
434
Posts

Drives: 2017 MW F80
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Jose

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelrain View Post
So I just got an email from Vargas and they did confirm that this install takes no more than 10 hours and they can't control what other shops charge but if you go to their shop that's what they will charge for install. I asked them to review the install process that was done by EAS and see where the discrepancy in time install is or how they do it differently
Waiting on their response
Either EAS added precautionary steps and VTT cut some out, as I know EAS isn't one to blatantly overcharge like that.

My local shop in Arizona also quoted 22hours and they have done many engine builds on the s55 and very familiar with engine.
__________________
2017 Mineral White M3
Mods to COME
Appreciate 1
IK6SPEED4338.50
      12-05-2018, 09:16 AM   #31
coldsteelrain
@JRZF80
United_States
487
Rep
596
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: May 2018
Location: NJ

iTrader: (3)

I got a response from Tony which was very nice of him

You do NOT have to drop the oil pan to do this upgrade. Simply remove the valve cover, loosen the tensioner, remove the vanos pulleys, and the chain drops down enough to install the new hub. You do NOT have to change the oil sprocket if the hub has not spun yet, it is not required. You can if you wish, and we recommend it if you think your hub has slipped, but it is not required.


As I said I believe EAS may have taken 20 hours, and the install is very thorough, but not all those steps are always required.

Thank you!
VTT
Appreciate 1
      12-05-2018, 09:44 AM   #32
Mmvic
Private First Class
Mmvic's Avatar
60
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Palm city fl

iTrader: (0)

We are very fortunate to have a shop like this take the time to document and post about the install. thanks eas.

Breaking open a perfectly fine engine is a hard pill to swallow. going back to the question is this really a problem?!? if some spin with factory hp and others don't with stage 2 tunes wouldn't the logical answer be that it's a factory build issue?
I understand doubling the HP from factory potentially causing it regardless of production error (or w/e) b/c of the design...
Appreciate 1
      12-05-2018, 11:50 AM   #33
blockdoc
Lieutenant
United_States
360
Rep
502
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelrain View Post
I got a response from Tony which was very nice of him

You do NOT have to drop the oil pan to do this upgrade. Simply remove the valve cover, loosen the tensioner, remove the vanos pulleys, and the chain drops down enough to install the new hub. You do NOT have to change the oil sprocket if the hub has not spun yet, it is not required. You can if you wish, and we recommend it if you think your hub has slipped, but it is not required.


As I said I believe EAS may have taken 20 hours, and the install is very thorough, but not all those steps are always required.

Thank you!
VTT
That's great information. Thanks for sharing!!
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 12:00 PM   #34
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
4959
Rep
17,143
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (19)

Garage List
2018 BMW i3s  [0.00]
2010 BMW M3  [5.00]
2015 BMW M4  [3.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelrain View Post
I got a response from Tony which was very nice of him

You do NOT have to drop the oil pan to do this upgrade. Simply remove the valve cover, loosen the tensioner, remove the vanos pulleys, and the chain drops down enough to install the new hub. You do NOT have to change the oil sprocket if the hub has not spun yet, it is not required. You can if you wish, and we recommend it if you think your hub has slipped, but it is not required.

As I said I believe EAS may have taken 20 hours, and the install is very thorough, but not all those steps are always required.

Thank you!
VTT
We thought about going this route - but since it was first install for the VTT kit, we followed the same exact steps BMW does when changing the crank hub. Obviously, doing more installs will eventually streamline the process. There is no need to touch the oil pan, we didn't on this install.

Omitting the oil pump sprocket would same some labor, it's best to change the complete assembly and not have any worries down the road - it simply depends on your level of peace of mind.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com · web: www.europeanautosource.com · tel 866.669.0705 · ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG · FACEBOOK · YOUTUBE · FLICKR · INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 5
      12-05-2018, 12:07 PM   #35
M-Pilot
Brigadier General
M-Pilot's Avatar
United_States
4709
Rep
3,674
Posts

Drives: 981 Cayman GTS
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4trix View Post
Agreed but then tuning is not really an option. I'd assume most owners that are looking at crank hub upgrades are not stock or wanting to tune.
Exactly! Only reason I really want the piece of mind is so that I can tune. If I'm keeping it stock, no way I'm gonna spend 3-4K for a preventative solution. That's what the warranty is for. I'm probably gonna sell the car once the warranty is over anyway.
Appreciate 3
      12-05-2018, 12:30 PM   #36
M-Pilot
Brigadier General
M-Pilot's Avatar
United_States
4709
Rep
3,674
Posts

Drives: 981 Cayman GTS
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by unleashed View Post
Non tuned car = No fun car
I agree 100%. However, even though the SCH rate might be pretty low overall, seeing quite a few threads/posts on SCH in the past couple months made me even more uncomfortable. I really don't want to face that $20K+ bill for a new engine one day. I'll probably do the fix at some point and then go for the tune.
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 02:11 PM   #37
yjypm
Lieutenant
yjypm's Avatar
United_States
204
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by unleashed View Post
Non tuned car = No fun car
I agree 100%. However, even though the SCH rate might be pretty low overall, seeing quite a few threads/posts on SCH in the past couple months made me even more uncomfortable. I really don't want to face that $20K+ bill for a new engine one day. I'll probably do the fix at some point and then go for the tune.
If that worry affects your fun with your car you should definitely do the fix. I am driving my f80 like a grandma as much as possible to prevent SCH.
__________________

Instagram:catpupu_f80
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 02:16 PM   #38
avex8
Major
avex8's Avatar
297
Rep
1,332
Posts

Drives: 11 E92 m3, 15 F80 M3, GLC 63
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by unleashed View Post
Non tuned car = No fun car
I agree 100%. However, even though the SCH rate might be pretty low overall, seeing quite a few threads/posts on SCH in the past couple months made me even more uncomfortable. I really don't want to face that $20K+ bill for a new engine one day. I'll probably do the fix at some point and then go for the tune.
If that worry affects your fun with your car you should definitely do the fix. I am driving my f80 like a grandma as much as possible to prevent SCH.
Word. With the E85 tune I only drive it once a week lol. I'll probably go with the gintani fix
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 02:18 PM   #39
yjypm
Lieutenant
yjypm's Avatar
United_States
204
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by avex8 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjypm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by unleashed View Post
Non tuned car = No fun car
I agree 100%. However, even though the SCH rate might be pretty low overall, seeing quite a few threads/posts on SCH in the past couple months made me even more uncomfortable. I really don't want to face that $20K+ bill for a new engine one day. I'll probably do the fix at some point and then go for the tune.
If that worry affects your fun with your car you should definitely do the fix. I am driving my f80 like a grandma as much as possible to prevent SCH.
Word. With the E85 tune I only drive it once a week lol. I'll probably go with the gintani fix
Right. I'm e85 tuned too. Whenever I need the powerrr I just shift manually and avoid kicking down in all circumstances. I regret getting dct so bad now.
__________________

Instagram:catpupu_f80
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 04:25 PM   #40
IK6SPEED
Banned
United_States
4339
Rep
10,515
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 / AH3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cali

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
We thought about going this route - but since it was first install for the VTT kit, we followed the same exact steps BMW does when changing the crank hub. Obviously, doing more installs will eventually streamline the process. There is no need to touch the oil pan, we didn't on this install.

Omitting the oil pump sprocket would same some labor, it's best to change the complete assembly and not have any worries down the road - it simply depends on your level of peace of mind.
Thank you for the info.

If I could ask, going by book hours, it shows 10 hours to replace a timing chain (clearly higher than VTT’s 6-8 hours post).

What over and above this is needed that contribute to the additional 10 hours?
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 04:27 PM   #41
milk242
Captain
180
Rep
734
Posts

Drives: Car
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (4)

I use kick down as much as possible just to see if the hub will spin. If it does, I can only hope it spins slightly before damage to the valves/piston heads. At that point, I'll replace my hub. The kick downs give me a smile. These aftermarket hubs might address the problem, but still skeptical on the root cause.
__________________
14 S4 (sold)
16 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 04:28 PM   #42
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
4959
Rep
17,143
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (19)

Garage List
2018 BMW i3s  [0.00]
2010 BMW M3  [5.00]
2015 BMW M4  [3.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Thank you for the info.

If I could ask, going by book hours, it shows 10 hours to replace a timing chain (clearly higher than VTT’s 6-8 hours post).

What over and above this is needed that contribute to the additional 10 hours?
Book time is 15 hours for timing chain.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com · web: www.europeanautosource.com · tel 866.669.0705 · ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG · FACEBOOK · YOUTUBE · FLICKR · INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 1
guess2098390.50
      12-05-2018, 04:48 PM   #43
IK6SPEED
Banned
United_States
4339
Rep
10,515
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 / AH3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cali

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Book time is 15 hours for timing chain.
Guess we have different books, lol.

Regardless, as that explains 15 hours, where does the extra 5 hours come into play?
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2018, 04:54 PM   #44
overlook637
Lieutenant
215
Rep
412
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Thanks for the fix and helping the community. With the high price however, anybody remaining stock and likely only keeping their cars for 2-3 years once the original warranty runs out should think about an extended BMW warranty for a couple thousand dollars more. That way everything is protected.
Warranty does't protect you from a ruined family vacation or being late to a important company meeting.

3 days into a mountain vacation, 140 miles from a dealership, and 60 miles from nearest rental car....

Warranty also does not cover the pure hassle of dealing with getting the broke car to the dealership, picking the car back up from the dealership, or any items the dealership jacks up during the comprehensive repair of a damaged engine.
Appreciate 1
THEROK928.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
crank, eas, sch, splinelock, vtt

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST