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      12-05-2018, 05:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Guess we have different books, lol.

Regardless, as that explains 15 hours, where does the extra 5 hours come into play?
Book time and real time doesn't always match up in all cases. Book quotes 8 hours for replacing coil springs, we can complete it in less than half that. Book sometimes comes up short - so we quote real time.

Total time taken for the complete crank hub install was at 20 hours.
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      12-05-2018, 09:15 PM   #46
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Guess we have different books, lol.

Regardless, as that explains 15 hours, where does the extra 5 hours come into play?
Book time and real time doesn't always match up in all cases. Book quotes 8 hours for replacing coil springs, we can complete it in less than half that. Book sometimes comes up short - so we quote real time.

Total time taken for the complete crank hub install was at 20 hours.
Great work on the write up Tom.

This job really doesn't seem that bad with the right tools.

I just did the top end and Vanos on an S52 in about the same amount of time.
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      12-06-2018, 01:35 PM   #47
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Hopefully the labor rates will come down like it came down for the E92 M3 Rod Bearings.
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      12-06-2018, 05:36 PM   #48
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Guys.. my hub should spun at 30mph constant throttle. No kick-down involved.
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      12-06-2018, 05:49 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Harpinc View Post
Guys.. my hub should spun at 30mph constant throttle. No kick-down involved.
It's all conjecture on what causes the failures or contributed to it. Where you in sport+ mode? Are you tuned for burbles?

I would think that we are coming up on a good 3 years since the car has been on the market. Every M sold should have experienced at least one kick-down or hard acceleration.

Perhaps we may start to see a wave of failures.

Last edited by overlook637; 12-06-2018 at 07:24 PM..
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      12-06-2018, 05:52 PM   #50
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The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
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      12-06-2018, 06:01 PM   #51
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The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
I'm sure a lot of owners think the same, until it happens to them.

SCHs have happened even on stock platforms (most likely covered under warranty), there's not a definitive cause of failure - only theories. I would think there are a lot more cases of SCH floating around out there, however not disclosed in hopes to get it taken care of under warranty. This forum makes up only a small percentage of the total number of M3/M4s on the road.

For stock platforms under warranty - no need to look further, that's what warranties are for. This solution is intended for those keeping their M3/M4s for long term or seeing track use/aggressively driven/adding power.
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      12-06-2018, 07:29 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.

For some its not the cost of the prevention or cost of repairs later. It is the ability to plan for the mod instead of having to deal with the unknown failure at a inopportune time. Such as failure while driving to the airport causing a missed important flight. Driving to work on a day of a busy workday. On family vacation a few hours from a dealership or car rental.
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      12-06-2018, 08:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
I would think there are a lot more cases of SCH floating around out there, however not disclosed in hopes to get it taken care of under warranty. This forum makes up only a small percentage of the total number of M3/M4s on the road.
If one didn't tune, why would he or she be concerned about having SCH covered under warranty?

I agree that this forum makes up a small percentage of the total M3's out there. What's actually more likely is that if someone had an issue, they'd be posting which inherently makes the forum a bias source for determining % of SCH's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlook637 View Post
For some its not the cost of the prevention or cost of repairs later. It is the ability to plan for the mod instead of having to deal with the unknown failure at a inopportune time. Such as failure while driving to the airport causing a missed important flight. Driving to work on a day of a busy workday. On family vacation a few hours from a dealership or car rental.
That's a lot of money to put down on something that is probably less likely than one getting into a car accident. Shit happens at in opportune times, that's life. If you tried to reduce failure of low probability outcomes for the stuff you mentioned above, you'd be spending an infinite amount of money.

Regardless, people can spend whatever they money to protect their downside. I think the SCH is blown way out of proportion on the forum due to survivorship/selection bias. If you're risk adverse and/or tuning hard, go for it. But economically it doesn't make any sense. In terms of practicality or reducing the risk of a missed flight or a busy work day, sure.
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      12-06-2018, 08:51 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
I had the same line of thinking as you.
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      12-06-2018, 10:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
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If one didn't tune, why would he or she be concerned about having SCH covered under warranty?

I agree that this forum makes up a small percentage of the total M3's out there. What's actually more likely is that if someone had an issue, they'd be posting which inherently makes the forum a bias source for determining % of SCH's.
This is in the OP - no reason to go this route kit if you're still under warranty and no plans on modding/tuning.
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      12-06-2018, 11:15 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
$4k to $20k does NOT imply a 20% chance of a SCH occurring.

Where could you ever imagine a relationship between those 2 items. :LOL:

Itís a $4000 Insurance policy against a $20,000+ Expense that some people would rather protect themselves against.
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      12-06-2018, 11:47 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
$4k to $20k does NOT imply a 20% chance of a SCH occurring.

Where could you ever imagine a relationship between those 2 items. :LOL:

It's a $4000 Insurance policy against a $20,000+ Expense that some people would rather protect themselves against.
Sure, imply may have been a strong word but the point stands. You're paying roughly $4k for what could be $20k of damage. The expected value of that outcome equates to 20 percent.

For argument sake, people balk and buying a $6k warranty on their 3 year old m4 which probably cost $45k. So why would you pay $4k for something that cost $20k to fix?

Once again, if you tuned your car and are trying to squeeze every ounce out of it, I understand that the value proposition of the SCH fix.
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      12-06-2018, 11:53 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
$4k to $20k does NOT imply a 20% chance of a SCH occurring.

Where could you ever imagine a relationship between those 2 items. :LOL:

It's a $4000 Insurance policy against a $20,000+ Expense that some people would rather protect themselves against.
Sure, imply may have been a strong word but the point stands. You're paying roughly $4k for what could be $20k of damage. The expected value of that outcome equates to 20 percent.
No, I'm prepaying $4k to assure I do not have a $25k+ bill or take a $30k loss on a car.

So I'm betting $4k.

You are paying $0 and could end up with a $30k loss.

Again, as it stated over and over in the mod threads, if you want to mod, you have to prepare to pay.....big time.

I'm capping my expenses.
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      12-06-2018, 11:58 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
$4k to $20k does NOT imply a 20% chance of a SCH occurring.

Where could you ever imagine a relationship between those 2 items. :LOL:

It's a $4000 Insurance policy against a $20,000+ Expense that some people would rather protect themselves against.
Sure, imply may have been a strong word but the point stands. You're paying roughly $4k for what could be $20k of damage. The expected value of that outcome equates to 20 percent.
No, I'm prepaying $4k to assure I do not have a $25k+ bill or take a $30k loss on a car.

So I'm betting $4k.

You are paying $0 and could end up with a $30k loss.

Again, as it stated over and over in the mod threads, if you want to mod, you have to prepare to pay.....big time.

I'm capping my expenses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
The risk reward tolerance on $4k spend to fix a $20k SCH would imply a 20 percent chance of a SCH occurring in order to justify the cost. SCH, while a known issue, is relatively small percentage, surely smaller than 1 percent at this point (my guess). To me, it doesn't make sense to do it unless you are extremely risk adverse or you're tuning to push insane power.
$4k to $20k does NOT imply a 20% chance of a SCH occurring.

Where could you ever imagine a relationship between those 2 items. :LOL:

It's a $4000 Insurance policy against a $20,000+ Expense that some people would rather protect themselves against.
Sure, imply may have been a strong word but the point stands. You're paying roughly $4k for what could be $20k of damage. The expected value of that outcome equates to 20 percent.
No, I'm prepaying $4k to assure I do not have a $25k+ bill or take a $30k loss on a car.

So I'm betting $4k.

You are paying $0 and could end up with a $30k loss.

Again, as it stated over and over in the mod threads, if you want to mod, you have to prepare to pay.....big time.

I'm capping my expenses.
By capping your expenses with a $4k bet to cover $20k of damage, you're putting your expected probability of damage at 20 percent. It's just maths bro. You can call it whatever you want, but it's the expected probability of your "bet".
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      12-07-2018, 12:01 AM   #60
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By capping your expenses with a $4k bet to cover $20k of damage, you're putting your expected probability of damage at 20 percent. It's just maths bro. You can call it whatever you want, but it's the expected probability of your "bet".
Again, you suck at probability.

That’s being polite.

I’m not worrying in the back of my mind about the possibility of it happening.

And that’s priceless.
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      12-07-2018, 12:09 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
By capping your expenses with a $4k bet to cover $20k of damage, you're putting your expected probability of damage at 20 percent. It's just maths bro. You can call it whatever you want, but it's the expected probability of your "bet".
Again, you suck at probability.

That's being polite.

I'm not worrying in the back of my mind about the possibility of it happening.

And that's priceless.
I'm not worrying either because most likely, the odds are that it won't happen.
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      12-07-2018, 12:14 AM   #62
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I don't know how does it come up with 4K total (200 per hr?!) but I been heard ppl paid around 1800+ 700 vtt hub from ppl in NY and ppl in CA. I never heard ppl paid 4K total!

Anyways, compares to turbo, forged rim, good coilover, 2.5k or, is really not that expensive.

But for those who has their car in stock, there is nothing to worry as warrant will cover.
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      12-07-2018, 12:23 AM   #63
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Quote:
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I don't know how does it come up with 4K total (200 per hr?!) but I been heard ppl paid around 1800+ 700 vtt hub from ppl in NY and ppl in CA. I never heard ppl paid 4K total!

Anyways, compares to turbo, forged rim, good coilover, 2.5k or, is really not that expensive.

But for those who has their car in stock, there is nothing to worry as warrant will cover.
It's not 4000, not sure how they got that number. EAS charge 2500 for the labor and the part is 800. I got my parts for 409 during the cyber Monday sale so it's actually 3000 for me if i decide to do it. But I am leaning toward gintani because their cost 600 more but their fix been out for awhile now and many people installed it with no issue. I feel like it's a gamble to go with VTT right now.
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      12-07-2018, 12:53 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guess2098 View Post
I don't know how does it come up with 4K total (200 per hr?!) but I been heard ppl paid around 1800+ 700 vtt hub from ppl in NY and ppl in CA. I never heard ppl paid 4K total!

Anyways, compares to turbo, forged rim, good coilover, 2.5k or, is really not that expensive.

But for those who has their car in stock, there is nothing to worry as warrant will cover.
It's not 4000, not sure how they got that number. EAS charge 2500 for the labor and the part is 800. I got my parts for 409 during the cyber Monday sale so it's actually 3000 for me if i decide to do it. But I am leaning toward gintani because their cost 600 more but their fix been out for awhile now and many people installed it with no issue. I feel like it's a gamble to go with VTT right now.
I was using other solutions to come up with the $4k number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guess2098 View Post
I don't know how does it come up with 4K total (200 per hr?!) but I been heard ppl paid around 1800+ 700 vtt hub from ppl in NY and ppl in CA. I never heard ppl paid 4K total!

Anyways, compares to turbo, forged rim, good coilover, 2.5k or, is really not that expensive.

But for those who has their car in stock, there is nothing to worry as warrant will cover.
I am going to say that very few here have "stock". Even if you have done coding to CID Acceptance Screen, those writes and counters add up. So while it's easy to say, "warranty will handle", for a $25k+ repair, I'd rather put the odds in my favor from future potential issues.

Last edited by IK6SPEED; 12-07-2018 at 05:19 PM..
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      12-07-2018, 12:56 AM   #65
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Quote:
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It's not 4000, not sure how they got that number. EAS charge 2500 for the labor and the part is 800. I got my parts for 409 during the cyber Monday sale so it's actually 3000 for me if i decide to do it. But I am leaning toward gintani because their cost 600 more but their fix been out for awhile now and many people installed it with no issue. I feel like it's a gamble to go with VTT right now.
been reading and learning this crank hub issue since Aug and also saw the actual bmw crank hub, i think as long as the
1. replacement crank hub metal is strong enough, doesn't break/bend during kick down
2. it doesn't spanning by itself with base hub on it (one piece design or keyed to base)
3. bolt doesn't get loose.

it should prevent the crank hub spin problem.
so AFAIK gintani, maximum psi and vtt should all fixed this issue.

i dont trust gintani because back to e60 e63 e92 time their products are more expensive and saw some damage people post online. was going for maximum psi hub but no stock from early sept to nov when vtt hub came out. so i just ordered vtt hub which should also fix the problem too by looking at their design and video.
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      12-07-2018, 01:07 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
I am going to say that very few here have "stock". Even if you have done coding to CID Acceptance Screen, those writes and counters add up. So while it's easy to say, "warranty will handle", for a $25k+ repair, I'd rather put the odds in my favor from future potential issues.
as long as the mods does not touch anything that relate to engine, most the time bmw does not deny the warranty.
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