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      09-24-2020, 08:25 PM   #1
g0dbless
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CSF intercooler worse than stock?? Dyno results by Kies Motorsports

Am I understanding this correctly that Kies Motorsports just proved that the CSF air cooler is worse than stock but he's trying to sugar coat it? I've owned and modded turbo cars for 17 years and never saw quality aftermarket intercoolers perform worse than stock, but this is my first M so maybe I'm not understanding something.

See link below for the dyno results video

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      09-24-2020, 09:25 PM   #2
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Many aftermarket 'upgrades' are absolutely downgrades.
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      09-24-2020, 09:36 PM   #3
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I was pretty shocked also. Those charge air coolers aren't cheap either.
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      09-24-2020, 09:55 PM   #4
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Weak if that’s true. I’ve seen he pushes the brand.
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      09-24-2020, 10:23 PM   #5
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$2000 for a loss in HP and torque.
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      09-24-2020, 10:27 PM   #6
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Heaaaaaaaaat soak. Likely more material or material that retains heat. Hardest of passes.
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      09-25-2020, 01:06 AM   #7
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If you watch his dyno videos, the car heatsoaked after each pill with the stock unit, but just like yall, I was surprised about the CSF cooler. But hey, I have open air intakes in my engine bay because they sound cool. At least the CSF looks cool and probably wonít leak, which my stock cooler did.
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      09-25-2020, 01:14 AM   #8
rborane
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Dont see any reason replacing an OEM charge cooler that doesnt leak. Replace the heat exchanger up front, but keep the top mount OEM.
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      09-25-2020, 07:04 AM   #9
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If the water side is hot there's not much cooling to be done. Now we know why Dinan only changes out the Heat Exchanger.
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      09-25-2020, 07:46 AM   #10
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I'm wondering if all charge air coolers make you lose power.
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      09-25-2020, 07:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rborane View Post
Dont see any reason replacing an OEM charge cooler that doesnt leak. Replace the heat exchanger up front, but keep the top mount OEM.
Ideally, yes. But the stock unit can fail at some point, leaking coolant into the engine. Iíd say, charge cooler as preventative not performance. FM intercooler for tuned/tracked cars. The cooling system is tough as nails in this car, if not for the leaking issue, not much to really do.
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      09-25-2020, 08:03 AM   #12
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Bigger intercoolers are almost always less efficient (regardless of the core as it takes more air to fill them) thus making the turbos work harder to achieve the same amount of boost and because the stock turbos are already beyond their efficiency range (hence why the torque is so much higher than the hp) they are working harder and EGT’s are higher sooner thus driving up the IAT’s quicker although slightly... higher octane fuel and more timing would help mitigate this and bigger turbos at the same boost level (or more as long as they are in their efficiency range) would also fix the power loss issue... its the same issue with bigger air to air coolers as well... the bigger IC’s will also create more lag as well but once the stock one starts to leak the IATs will go through the roof of course... I’d be suprised if the bigger core IC’s didn’t win out on the road course after lots of heat soak though but for street pulls and/or drag racing the stock one is great especially when paired with stock turbos... I will also say that the stock plastic charge pipes and the silicone aftermarket CP’s will transfer less of the heat from the turbos (EGT’s) to the IC and result in lower IAT’s than metal ones (didnt look at the video to see which CP’s this car has)

Last edited by whitstap; 09-25-2020 at 08:12 AM..
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      09-25-2020, 08:37 AM   #13
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Mishimoto shared their R & D on the S55 top mount and found the dual pass design to be less efficient than a single pass. I bought a VRSF top mount which i believe is a copy of the CSF dual pass design and most likely also have less performance compared to stock. I also questioned why the stock top mount always felt more cooler than the VRSF top mount when touched by hand. Thought it was because stock is bare aluminum and VRSF is painted. I mainly did the mod because of all the reports of ppl having leaky stock top mounts. Mine was fine when removed and inspected.
I would probably go with Mishimoto if i had to do it again. Maybe Kies can do a dyno test with a mishimoto top mount.

Here is the testing page mishi did. Its a good read. https://www.mishimoto.com/engineerin...ler-2015-2020/
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      09-25-2020, 11:08 AM   #14
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unfortunately, I and many others have invested in the CSF unit , and I've seen reports, dyno pulls etc that are consistent with Kies recent video ( 10hp loss etc... will be looking at other options and just having the csf as a spare
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      09-25-2020, 11:51 AM   #15
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I recently replaced my leaking OEM unit with a VRSF one, I wonder how much worse mine is.
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      09-25-2020, 12:53 PM   #16
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Is anyone actually surprised by this? VF and CSF both refused to release viable data with this product. Their only reasoning was, "oh we have sold thousands of units, so it must be good."
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      09-25-2020, 01:18 PM   #17
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Not at all. Reliability is more important to me. Dyno pulls are also different than real world.
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      09-25-2020, 01:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applesauce683 View Post
Is anyone actually surprised by this? VF and CSF both refused to release viable data with this product. Their only reasoning was, "oh we have sold thousands of units, so it must be good."
This has been the same story since the beginning of time
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      09-25-2020, 02:25 PM   #19
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My VRSF looks better than stock. And although I didnít log before. My IATís are always 12-14 degrees over ambient. 🤷🏼*♂️ I do agree that the other real way to lower charge temp is to replace the front heat exchanger.
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      09-25-2020, 02:38 PM   #20
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Thats really expensive for less performance wtf
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      09-25-2020, 05:33 PM   #21
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Wagner makes a larger OEM style (tube and fin) that doesn't have the drawbacks of the bar and plate.
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      09-25-2020, 08:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverDaily View Post
Wagner makes a larger OEM style (tube and fin) that doesn't have the drawbacks of the bar and plate.
shit glad i bought the wagner one instead of this POS
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