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      01-09-2021, 09:25 PM   #1
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Best Ethanol Conditioner and Why

Title says everything!


After having a bad experience running E85 and getting my injectors stuck open while testing E85 every fill up + using the Lucas additive I have become skeptical.

Is there evidence these additives actually prevent injectors getting stuck open and if so, which one do you use and more importantly why? What makes it better over another additive?


I am of the mindset to actually use nothing and just flash back every 500-750 miles to 93.
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      01-09-2021, 10:20 PM   #2
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It seems we have a good add statement from Kratos that injector failure is directly related to continued high PSI use, like needed for delivering needed E85 quantities.
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=27093672

Sorry that I can't provide proof of lubricant effectiveness or performance of one brand over another.
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      01-09-2021, 11:52 PM   #3
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      01-10-2021, 02:51 PM   #4
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      01-10-2021, 06:05 PM   #5
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I like Project Farm a lot since the guy seems to think out his experiments well. In this case I don't think it applies to our fuel system since everything is steel or rubber/plastic approved for gas alcohol mixes, and his demonstration is more for long term effects of corrosion on aluminum (like in lawnmowers, which Project Farm usually experiments on).
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      01-12-2021, 02:24 PM   #6
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I've been using power plus top lube. https://www.powerpluslubricants.com/...USTOPLUBE.html

Works for me and I also run a full tank of 93 every 5th fill up. No problems here yet with 35k miles (15k miles worth of E85)
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      01-13-2021, 01:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentjle View Post
I've been using power plus top lube. https://www.powerpluslubricants.com/...USTOPLUBE.html

Works for me and I also run a full tank of 93 every 5th fill up. No problems here yet with 35k miles (15k miles worth of E85)
How often are you changing plugs and oil?
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      01-14-2021, 02:00 PM   #8
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Not really an ethanol conditioner but what are your guy's thoughts on Berryman B-12 Chemtool Fuel Injector Cleaner?
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      01-14-2021, 05:24 PM   #9
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Not really an ethanol conditioner but what are your guy's thoughts on Berryman B-12 Chemtool Fuel Injector Cleaner?
Probably not much benefit to our engines. If you run premium brand gasoline then you shouldn't have much buildup. If you run E30 or E85 the alcohol content would do some injector cleaning by itself.

Best injector and valve cleaner for the S55 is a port meth kit.
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      01-14-2021, 06:08 PM   #10
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In a discussion that I've had with Sales@Kratos it's more clear that adding top lube to E85 in hopes of "injectors not sticking" is likely pointless. Their statement is that running E85 on stock fueling with big turbos requires the tune to push the HPFP Target very high to supply enough fuel, and injectors subjected to this very high pressure will fail much faster. They made it clear that failure is not related to extended duty cycles (Halim runs Kratos+gas at high injector duty cycle but not x-high HPFP pressure) or internal corrosion (they spoke with Bosch engineers). Adding PI to DI would allow for not maxing out the HPFP Target.
ey have done the
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      01-14-2021, 08:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
In a discussion that I've had with Sales@Kratos it's more clear that adding top lube to E85 in hopes of "injectors not sticking" is likely pointless. Their statement is that running E85 on stock fueling with big turbos requires the tune to push the HPFP Target very high to supply enough fuel, and injectors subjected to this very high pressure will fail much faster. They made it clear that failure is not related to extended duty cycles (Halim runs Kratos+gas at high injector duty cycle but not x-high HPFP pressure) or internal corrosion (they spoke with Bosch engineers). Adding PI to DI would allow for not maxing out the HPFP Target.
ey have done the
What about this with stock turbos running custom e85 tune? Def still makes sense to cycle 93 and use conditioner in that case right?
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      01-14-2021, 08:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msm1984 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
In a discussion that I've had with Sales@Kratos it's more clear that adding top lube to E85 in hopes of "injectors not sticking" is likely pointless. Their statement is that running E85 on stock fueling with big turbos requires the tune to push the HPFP Target very high to supply enough fuel, and injectors subjected to this very high pressure will fail much faster. They made it clear that failure is not related to extended duty cycles (Halim runs Kratos+gas at high injector duty cycle but not x-high HPFP pressure) or internal corrosion (they spoke with Bosch engineers). Adding PI to DI would allow for not maxing out the HPFP Target.
ey have done the
What about this with stock turbos running custom e85 tune? Def still makes sense to cycle 93 and use conditioner in that case right?
That's what Cary always said, but Kratos seems to have a different opinion based on their testing. Since Kratos has some pretty big turbos it makes sense they commonly have customers pushing DI to its limits.
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      01-14-2021, 08:53 PM   #13
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Interesting.. So injectors getting stuck open isn't really related to the non-lubrication of ethanol fuel.
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      01-14-2021, 09:01 PM   #14
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Here's the word from Kratos that triggered my PM convo with them:
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=27093672
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      01-15-2021, 07:22 PM   #15
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Do most of the issues that people encounter with E-85, does it have anything to do with low quality or being from the pump? Would running a very consistent E85/E98 Race Gas avoid any of this?
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      01-15-2021, 07:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBobby Jr View Post
Do most of the issues that people encounter with E-85, does it have anything to do with low quality or being from the pump? Would running a very consistent E85/E98 Race Gas avoid any of this?
My stuck injector occurred while tuning with quality race E85 in pails, and I had added lubricant almost every time. My fuel mix was actually reduced to ~E80 since we added a little gas to avoid crashing HPFPs. Just one of my injectors couldn't handle the pressure.
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      01-15-2021, 08:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBobby Jr View Post
Do most of the issues that people encounter with E-85, does it have anything to do with low quality or being from the pump? Would running a very consistent E85/E98 Race Gas avoid any of this?
My stuck injector occurred while tuning with quality race E85 in pails, and I had added lubricant almost every time. My fuel mix was actually reduced to ~E80 since we added a little gas to avoid crashing HPFPs. Just one of my injectors couldn't handle the pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBobby Jr View Post
Do most of the issues that people encounter with E-85, does it have anything to do with low quality or being from the pump? Would running a very consistent E85/E98 Race Gas avoid any of this?
My stuck injector occurred while tuning with quality race E85 in pails, and I had added lubricant almost every time. My fuel mix was actually reduced to ~E80 since we added a little gas to avoid crashing HPFPs. Just one of my injectors couldn't handle the pressure.
Well, that is some disheartening news. I'd hope that running some quality ethanol would avoid this problem as I'd like to run a max effort tune on stock turbos.
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      01-15-2021, 09:42 PM   #18
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According to RC engineering:

The case of injectors getting stuck open is from high pressures and corrosive nature of alcohol in the E85. The needles are super thin and can break. Thus pouring fuel.

The case of injectors getting clogged is more to do with alcohol that dries quickly and the injectors being so close to the piston tops (carbon buildup) It can clog the tips.

Lastly the injectors can get clogged by sucking in some type of debris although less likely it can still occur.

I plan on using ethanol fuel conditioner with every fill up of E85.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And changing my Injector dynamics F750 fuel filter every 6 months that came with the my Bend calibration flexf fuel kit.

I plan on pulling my new Eu6 injectors after a year and checking to see when these need to be changed or serviced. That will tell me if this is a once per year or can last longer.

They are so cheap to buy from fcp euro and have the lifetime warranty that it's really not a big deal if it really comes down to it.

Just my 2 cents.
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      01-15-2021, 09:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3 View Post
According to RC engineering:

The case of injectors getting stuck open is from high pressures and corrosive nature of alcohol in the E85. The needles are super thin and can break. Thus pouring fuel.

The case of injectors getting clogged is more to do with alcohol that dries quickly and the injectors being so close to the piston tops (carbon buildup) It can clog the tips.

Lastly the injectors can get clogged by sucking in some type of debris although less likely it can still occur.

I plan on using ethanol fuel conditioner with every fill up of E85.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...UTF8&psc=1

And changing my Injector dynamics F750 fuel filter every 6 months that came with the my Bend calibration flexf fuel kit.

I plan on pulling my new Eu6 injectors after a year and checking to see when these need to be changed or serviced. That will tell me if this is a once per year or can last longer.

They are so cheap to buy from fcp euro and have the lifetime warranty that it's really not a big deal if it really comes down to it.

Just my 2 cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3 View Post
According to RC engineering:

The case of injectors getting stuck open is from high pressures and corrosive nature of alcohol in the E85. The needles are super thin and can break. Thus pouring fuel.

The case of injectors getting clogged is more to do with alcohol that dries quickly and the injectors being so close to the piston tops (carbon buildup) It can clog the tips.

Lastly the injectors can get clogged by sucking in some type of debris although less likely it can still occur.

I plan on using ethanol fuel conditioner with every fill up of E85.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...UTF8&psc=1

And changing my Injector dynamics F750 fuel filter every 6 months that came with the my Bend calibration flexf fuel kit.

I plan on pulling my new Eu6 injectors after a year and checking to see when these need to be changed or serviced. That will tell me if this is a once per year or can last longer.

They are so cheap to buy from fcp euro and have the lifetime warranty that it's really not a big deal if it really comes down to it.

Just my 2 cents.
How are the bosch injectors on e85? Like 600$ for a set of 6
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      01-15-2021, 10:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
In a discussion that I've had with Sales@Kratos it's more clear that adding top lube to E85 in hopes of "injectors not sticking" is likely pointless. Their statement is that running E85 on stock fueling with big turbos requires the tune to push the HPFP Target very high to supply enough fuel, and injectors subjected to this very high pressure will fail much faster. They made it clear that failure is not related to extended duty cycles (Halim runs Kratos+gas at high injector duty cycle but not x-high HPFP pressure) or internal corrosion (they spoke with Bosch engineers). Adding PI to DI would allow for not maxing out the HPFP Target.
ey have done the
Isnít it the m5 injectors that flow 10% more? If so, would that be a worthy swap to extend the life given the duty cycle would be less on them?
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      01-15-2021, 10:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
In a discussion that I've had with Sales@Kratos it's more clear that adding top lube to E85 in hopes of "injectors not sticking" is likely pointless. Their statement is that running E85 on stock fueling with big turbos requires the tune to push the HPFP Target very high to supply enough fuel, and injectors subjected to this very high pressure will fail much faster. They made it clear that failure is not related to extended duty cycles (Halim runs Kratos+gas at high injector duty cycle but not x-high HPFP pressure) or internal corrosion (they spoke with Bosch engineers). Adding PI to DI would allow for not maxing out the HPFP Target.
ey have done the
I can vouch with jimmy. I too just ran into possible injector problems. Possible stuck or leaky injector. Always used Lucas stabilizer on every tank of e85. Car only ran full E for 2k miles..still trying to figure it out. Car is idling rough but drives perfect fine. Which injector do you guys recommend for a 2017? For some reason realoem.com with my vin shows 2 different part numbers
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      01-16-2021, 08:36 AM   #22
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@F80_Greg if an injector sticks then you're hosed and the cylinder partially fills with fuel. I doubt you have a dirty/clogged injector since you ran 85% alcohol through it for 2K miles. If it was stuck you'd be blowing clouds of smoke. You would know for sure by pulling plugs, one would be wet or stink of fuel.

If you do need an injector check FCP Euro, they have OEM ($$$) and Bosch ($). I used one Bosch and it worked fine.
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