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      08-29-2019, 10:47 AM   #23
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We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren’t an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn’t be happier with and the fact that there aren’t many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it’s quite light be today’s standard and quite a special car.
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      08-30-2019, 12:49 PM   #24
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For the price it can be had, the M3CS is the better car. I mean, it's a better car in general but that's in no way/shape/form a shot at the M2C. Those things are FAST in the corners.
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      10-14-2019, 07:11 PM   #25
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Get the CS. We were looking for something new after trading in my E92 M3 and initially hadn’t even considered the CS due to price. In the end we got a deal that is pretty much M4 ZCP pricing. The car is absolutely amazing and well worth it. I can see why it was even worth its original price (or at least close to it) as each of the tweaks they’ve done to it have just made it sublime to drive. Very daily driveable, just did a lake road trip in it!

It’s really a special car
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      10-15-2019, 01:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren’t an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn’t be happier with and the fact that there aren’t many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it’s quite light be today’s standard and quite a special car.
Agree completely. BMW also fucked up royally by trying to ripoff their customers because now they've set a precedent for CS trim pricing in the future. Customers are now going to wait longer to purchase future CS models (M2CS withstanding).
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      10-26-2019, 02:11 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren’t an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn’t be happier with and the fact that there aren’t many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it’s quite light be today’s standard and quite a special car.
I agree on the GTS but disagree on the M3cs. To say the M3 CS was not worth ANYWHERE near its sticker is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to waste data space on the long list of functional carbon parts and special lightweight wheels on the CS or the chassis adjustments or the underrated HP bump, that make for one hell of a fine handling and fast as shit M3. With that said most of us picked those cars up for 10 to 15 grand under sticker.
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      10-28-2019, 03:25 AM   #28
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If you like the way the M2 drives compared to the M3... then i'd wait for the M2cs. They will probably hold value ALOT better than the M3/M4cs.

But the F80 looks alot better in my opinion.
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      10-28-2019, 08:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren't an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn't be happier with and the fact that there aren't many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it's quite light be today's standard and quite a special car.
I agree on the GTS but disagree on the M3cs. To say the M3 CS was not worth ANYWHERE near its sticker is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to waste data space on the long list of functional carbon parts and special lightweight wheels on the CS or the chassis adjustments or the underrated HP bump, that make for one hell of a fine handling and fast as shit M3. With that said most of us picked those cars up for 10 to 15 grand under sticker.
Ummmm, most picked it up for 20-30k under sticker and BMW still made a profit.
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      10-28-2019, 09:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren't an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn't be happier with and the fact that there aren't many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it's quite light be today's standard and quite a special car.
I agree on the GTS but disagree on the M3cs. To say the M3 CS was not worth ANYWHERE near its sticker is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to waste data space on the long list of functional carbon parts and special lightweight wheels on the CS or the chassis adjustments or the underrated HP bump, that make for one hell of a fine handling and fast as shit M3. With that said most of us picked those cars up for 10 to 15 grand under sticker.
Ummmm, most picked it up for 20-30k under sticker and BMW still made a profit.
Most? 20-30k under? No way. Prove it.
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      10-28-2019, 10:22 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren’t an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn’t be happier with and the fact that there aren’t many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it’s quite light be today’s standard and quite a special car.
Oh, you again, in the M3 forum without owning an M3 and where every single one of your posts is negative. Hmmm.

The GTS and the CS were clearly worth what they came out at, the thing is too many people are unsure of their worth as humans and if they are going to pay 100k (Cayman S with options) or 130k (911 S with options) they will always default to the ones with fancier badges.

I mean, I kind of understand. If I were a hard parker or a paper racer I may feel the same.

GrussGott look, just what we were discussing the other day!
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      10-28-2019, 10:26 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
I agree on the GTS but disagree on the M3cs. To say the M3 CS was not worth ANYWHERE near its sticker is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to waste data space on the long list of functional carbon parts and special lightweight wheels on the CS or the chassis adjustments or the underrated HP bump, that make for one hell of a fine handling and fast as shit M3. With that said most of us picked those cars up for 10 to 15 grand under sticker.
Don't worry, this guy is the M3post resident troll. He's been banned a few times as he literally has nothing to say except crap on BMW. Then he changes his username and comes back.

Imagine how lame it is to spend all your time in a forum of a car you don't even own, trolling people while you praise at the altar of Porsche while you sit back and look at the power to weight and the Ring times of your car vs M3s.

An M3 CS, or a M4 GTS, will tear a 991.2 'T' a new one so badly in any track that matters that it isn't even worth doing. But perhaps that is what already happened and what motivates the desire and energy to troll on M3post all day long
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      10-28-2019, 10:46 AM   #33
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Nice, good to know. As fairly new member here I've noticed there seem to be quite a few P car praising lovers here for a BMW site. And even more threatening to change brands because of the large grill. Geez, the car is not even out yet. I mean yea they are great cars if but to me they are not in same category. I mean try taking your family out for a drive in a typical Porsche sports car regardless of the model. That aside, I just can't see myself driving a Porche anymore then I can see myself driving a Corvette. Again both great cars but just not my style.
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      10-28-2019, 04:39 PM   #34
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Nice, good to know. As fairly new member here I've noticed there seem to be quite a few P car praising lovers here for a BMW site. And even more threatening to change brands because of the large grill. Geez, the car is not even out yet. I mean yea they are great cars if but to me they are not in same category. I mean try taking your family out for a drive in a typical Porsche sports car regardless of the model. That aside, I just can't see myself driving a Porche anymore then I can see myself driving a Corvette. Again both great cars but just not my style.
It's really odd. I mean you can have brand X as well as Y and speak about both, however, if literally every single one of your posts is about BMW being terrible and you don't even own one... that's a good reason to ban someone: pure trolling

And yeah, it's interesting how many closet P car fanboys there are in a BMW forum. I wonder if you go to the Camaro/Porsche forum and there are people who spend all their time talking about how their BMW M/Ferrari (respectively) car is much better... and how long it would take to get banned.
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      10-29-2019, 02:43 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
We don't agree much, but definitely in agreement here.

Yup, I was one of the ones that got a firesale deal on my M4 CS thankfully. I feel bad for the early adopters that bought the CS/GTS cars at or near MSRP.
The GTS and CS were not worth ANYWHERE near their sticker prices and that was market adjusted accordingly with cars sitting, big discounts, and trade values/depreciation. Very good if you weren't an early adopter. I thought about one but ended up with another 911, 991.2 T which I couldn't be happier with and the fact that there aren't many of those around either is good. Plus at 32xx lbs it's quite light be today's standard and quite a special car.
I agree on the GTS but disagree on the M3cs. To say the M3 CS was not worth ANYWHERE near its sticker is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to waste data space on the long list of functional carbon parts and special lightweight wheels on the CS or the chassis adjustments or the underrated HP bump, that make for one hell of a fine handling and fast as shit M3. With that said most of us picked those cars up for 10 to 15 grand under sticker.
Ummmm, most picked it up for 20-30k under sticker and BMW still made a profit.
Most? 20-30k under? No way. Prove it.
What do you mean prove it? Have you not seen the CS deals thread here? Look through the last 10 pages or so for your proof. BMW incentives alone were at 10k at some point and dealers were discounting another 10-20K. My CS MSRP was 103K roughly and I got it for 80K and that wasn't even a great deal in comparison to others.
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      10-29-2019, 07:10 AM   #36
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Oh, you again, in the M3 forum without owning an M3 and where every single one of your posts is negative. Hmmm.

The GTS and the CS were clearly worth what they came out at, the thing is too many people are unsure of their worth as humans and if they are going to pay 100k (Cayman S with options) or 130k (911 S with options) they will always default to the ones with fancier badges.

I mean, I kind of understand. If I were a hard parker or a paper racer I may feel the same.

GrussGott look, just what we were discussing the other day!
Right, or a 120-130k Carrera T. What a special car and terrific value. As is evidenced by the fact that dozens of new ones are sitting on dealer lots, discounted almost 20k off msrp, and used '18 can now be had in the low to mid-80s with a few miles.

So, 50-70k when the 992 equivalent is released? CS/GTS were exploitative. Carrera T, priced just right.
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      10-29-2019, 08:06 AM   #37
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What do you mean prove it? Have you not seen the CS deals thread here? Look through the last 10 pages or so for your proof. BMW incentives alone were at 10k at some point and dealers were discounting another 10-20K. My CS MSRP was 103K roughly and I got it for 80K and that wasn't even a great deal in comparison to others.
^This, mine was nearly 26k off, which made it easy to get out of after 4-5 months.
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      10-29-2019, 08:07 AM   #38
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Right, or a 120-130k Carrera T. What a special car and terrific value. As is evidenced by the fact that dozens of new ones are sitting on dealer lots, discounted almost 20k off msrp, and used '18 can now be had in the low to mid-80s with a few miles.

So, 50-70k when the 992 equivalent is released? CS/GTS were exploitative. Carrera T, priced just right.
Porsche and "value for your money" have never been synonymous.
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      10-29-2019, 09:03 AM   #39
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Porsche and "value for your money" have never been synonymous.
Double the price of your 1LE with the base turbo Carrera engine, and the high privilege of Porsche permitting access to some of its parts bin. Plus cool cloth seats (or $5,200 buckets), colored door handle loops, and nonexistent weight savings.

“This one was for you, Porsche fanboys and wannabe GT3’ers. Thanks for the obscene profit.” – Porsche AG

The manual-transmission car weighed 3221 pounds, eight pounds shy of a 2017 911 Carrera manual; at 3290 pounds, the PDK-equipped car was only 13 pounds lighter than a 2017 911 Carrera PDK we tested previously. The two cars' performance, similarly, shades their non-T counterparts. The PDK is the quicker of the two, hitting 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, or 0.1 second behind the Carrera PDK. Color us surprised by the Carrera T manual, whose 3.7-second run to 60 mph represents a 0.3-second improvement over the manual-transmission 2017 Carrera. Otherwise, generating 1.05 to 1.06 g of lateral grip on the skidpad along with 142- and 144-foot stopping distances from 70 mph covers territory trod by other Carreras. It's pretty rarified territory but not new-to-the-911 territory.
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      10-29-2019, 10:56 AM   #40
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Double the price of your 1LE with the base turbo Carrera engine, and the high privilege of Porsche permitting access to some of its parts bin. Plus cool cloth seats (or $5,200 buckets), colored door handle loops, and nonexistent weight savings.

“This one was for you, Porsche fanboys and wannabe GT3’ers. Thanks for the obscene profit.” – Porsche AG

The manual-transmission car weighed 3221 pounds, eight pounds shy of a 2017 911 Carrera manual; at 3290 pounds, the PDK-equipped car was only 13 pounds lighter than a 2017 911 Carrera PDK we tested previously. The two cars' performance, similarly, shades their non-T counterparts. The PDK is the quicker of the two, hitting 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, or 0.1 second behind the Carrera PDK. Color us surprised by the Carrera T manual, whose 3.7-second run to 60 mph represents a 0.3-second improvement over the manual-transmission 2017 Carrera. Otherwise, generating 1.05 to 1.06 g of lateral grip on the skidpad along with 142- and 144-foot stopping distances from 70 mph covers territory trod by other Carreras. It's pretty rarified territory but not new-to-the-911 territory.
Not to thread jack and this is more appropriate in the lost their way thread, but I see BMW doing this as well with the MSRPs on their limited edition cars (and other main line non M cars). Which, I see as a problem going forward for BMW. They've always had value over Porsche and other brands etc, but with their MSRP strategy they are eroding that (or trying to at least via outright greed).
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      10-29-2019, 11:51 AM   #41
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Not to thread jack and this is more appropriate in the lost their way thread, but I see BMW doing this as well with the MSRPs on their limited edition cars (and other main line non M cars). Which, I see as a problem going forward for BMW. They've always had value over Porsche and other brands etc, but with their MSRP strategy they are eroding that (or trying to at least via outright greed).
Yes, BMW is guilty of it too. Maybe the major CS discounts were a wake up.
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      10-29-2019, 01:03 PM   #42
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Not to thread jack and this is more appropriate in the lost their way thread, but I see BMW doing this as well with the MSRPs on their limited edition cars (and other main line non M cars). Which, I see as a problem going forward for BMW. They've always had value over Porsche and other brands etc, but with their MSRP strategy they are eroding that (or trying to at least via outright greed).
I harbor zero hope of that happening. Although it would be nice.

Remember we live in an age of 100k CaymanS with options, a 4 banger.
GT3 base price is 150k with zero options.
Base 992 price 100k, average transaction is what, 130k?


In that context, the CS/GTS/etc is priced where it should be.


I also don't see anyone else really undercutting this. The C8 is really cheap if you get one with zero options, but reading the reviews that are out I'm not sure how a Z51 C8 is better than a F80 M3 for track use.

You can get faster cars like a ZL1 1LE at a similar price to an M3, but it's still in the 70s and it isn't a daily driver, at all. Someone here wore out the shocks with 4k miles of street driving.
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      10-29-2019, 01:14 PM   #43
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I harbor zero hope of that happening. Although it would be nice.

Remember we live in an age of 100k CaymanS with options, a 4 banger.
GT3 base price is 150k with zero options.
Base 992 price 100k, average transaction is what, 130k?


In that context, the CS/GTS/etc is priced where it should be.


I also don't see anyone else really undercutting this. The C8 is really cheap if you get one with zero options, but reading the reviews that are out I'm not sure how a Z51 C8 is better than a F80 M3 for track use.

You can get faster cars like a ZL1 1LE at a similar price to an M3, but it's still in the 70s and it isn't a daily driver, at all. Someone here wore out the shocks with 4k miles of street driving.
For some reason though Porsche can pull it off (not from me anyway as I mostly agree with you) and BMW can't without steep discounts. I've always thought you get more with your money with a BMW than Porsche, but not when BMW is starting to price some cars in Porsches world without backing it up performance wise (overall). Not to open old wounds/threads, but I'd take a lightly optioned MT 911 S over a CS at MSRP, which are comparable. Especially when you add CCBs etc. I test drove a M4 CS that had a 119k MSRP, I'm sorry but that is nuts for that car and what you get for it and I liked my M4 CS. I've built a manual 911 GTS for around 130K and I'd take that over anything BMW currently has to offer in that price range past or present.

The ZL1 1LE actually isn't that bad on the roads, certainly no worse than my civic 15 M3 with static suspension or my civic M4 with adjustable. I actually think those two cars were worse than my ZLE ride quality wise and you certainly didn't get the performance from those civic M3/4 suspension that you do from the Multimatic setup as a trade off. The ZCP ride in my M3 wasn't a ton better either for a DD. That being said, yes the M3/4 are much better dailys than the Camaro of any variant. I didn't see that about the Multimatic shocks wearing out that quick. I've read everything I could and never came before I bought one and never saw that. Interesting and I'll keep an eye on it, thanks.

Last edited by minn19; 10-29-2019 at 01:20 PM..
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      10-29-2019, 01:34 PM   #44
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For some reason though Porsche can pull it off (not from me anyway as I mostly agree with you) and BMW can't without steep discounts. I've always thought you get more with your money with a BMW than Porsche, but not when BMW is starting to price some cars in Porsches world without backing it up performance wise (overall). Not to open old wounds/threads, but I'd take a lightly optioned MT 911 S over a CS at MSRP, which are comparable. Especially when you add CCBs etc. I test drove a M4 CS that had a 119k MSRP, I'm sorry but that is nuts for that car and what you get for it and I liked my M4 CS. I've built a manual 911 GTS for around 130K and I'd take that over anything BMW currently has to offer in that price range past or present.
.
Good conversation
Porsche can pull whatever it wants off, as it has the planet's biggest fanboys. I wonder if the Ferrari fanboys are that bad.

Prices are just going up around the board. Before long we'll have a 100k base M3, but I also expect the gap between it and a 911 to be pretty stable.

If you add CCBs to an M product that cost is irrelevant to the gap between P and M cars. If there is some reason which prompts you to put CCBs on an M4 it should also prompt you to do so when optioning a 911.

The M4 CS you looked at probably had CCBS, so discount them and you're left at 110k. What does Porsche offer at that price?
The CS comes the way you want to buy it. How much do you have to add to the 911 to get there?
In this link you can see the amish edition 911 S is 115k without options. As tested, 150k.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

In the universe where a 911 S is 150k I don't see why BMW cannot sell a CS at 110k.

A friend has a manual 991.1 GTS. MSRP 148k and he doesn't have any special options like CCB.


A typically optioned Cayman S is 100k... I don't understand why an F80 is overpriced in the same context as the 100k, 4 cylinder car. 4 cylinder!! Like my Mini!



About the ZL1, I agree that sounds off, but it was someone on this board. It came up in this subforum.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 10-29-2019 at 01:40 PM..
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