I'm not happy with BMW's direction for the next generation - What is an alternative?

[FormulaMMM]

No, I’m not enthused about their direction.

I grew up idolizing the same models as you. E36 then E46 and E39.

Those cars were imperfect, but this was BMW’s golden age IMO, which evolved and concluded with the E9X.

The current M2 is a poor substitute for an E46. Sorry, just no.

The F90 is amazing in many ways. Can’t hold a candle to the character, appeal, fricking magic of the E39.

You always adjust to speed, acceleration. The body and mind become acclimated. That’s the fundamental error of BMW’s full buy into the horsepower war. I’m numb to it. Honestly, I don’t care if the next M5 has 850 hp. Soon enough everything will accelerate to 60 in <3 seconds.

I think that M division should have checked out of the horsepower war long ago. Balanced emissions requirements with EV’s and hybrids across their base model range, and focused on building naturally-aspirated, special cars. That WAS M division. That’s their core identity – I remember, I was there, they’re not fooling me… It would have been possible. Porsche GT division is managing.

How much would I give for a slightly modernized (DCT) version of an E46 M3 CSL? E39 M5 (no adjustments necessary)? An S65 with ~500 hp that revs to 9k in combination with cylinder deactivation and F8X level chassis?

But they’re obviously headed toward all-wheel drive turbos and hybridization. Cars that are bigger every gen (WHY?). And a design concept/look that to me says, “we’ve run out of ideas…” They’re not going to pull a rabbit out of a hat. The new M5 is a preview, just as the E60 was a preview for the E9X. Predict the upcoming M3/M4 will be massively capable, obnoxiously styled (apparently), and that’s about it.

Very possible that my BMW stable remains unchanged (E90 and GTS), and I move on. Keep an eye out for clean, low mileage E46’s and E39’s. I check out EnthusiastAuto hazardously often.

My heart and mind are drawn toward older gen M cars and Porsche GT cars nowadays. And I appreciate what the Americans are doing. I’ve almost tuned out of BMW’s developments. I’d like to be convinced otherwise, but the formula is the formula. They'll never get close to the M cars I idolized and enjoyed with the current formula.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

A lot of guys went from modded M3/4s to stock Porsche 991.1S/GTS or 991.2s and put down much better lap times in a stock form, myself included. Unless you have an M3/4 with 600-700 hp and have better driving skills they are nowhere near 911 performance, let alone GT cars - but then it’s not really apples to apples in either case.

Not dissing the 911s. They are fantastic cars and faster in stock lap times (like Nurburgring times vs M4 GTS) and perhaps easier to drive faster. But believe it or not, F8x can be driven pretty close to GT3/GT3RS at shorter local circuits
IMO, for much less cost. It's a cost efficiency issue.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by alscks0414

Exactly! I want competition model with 6MT (or DCT) RWD. But they dont offer that. I had fun modifying my previous model and i am considering keep them in stock as I prefer that way more now.
Only one thing that i dont like current F80 is the size in comparision to Porsche. After coming from M2 i do know that i want smaller fun nimble not pursuing power gain over tuning..

Well everyone has different taste

I didn't necessarily mean a power mod. It's already quite fast! Maybe stock ZCP or CS flash tune but I can't trust that either to run at track. I meant tires and suspension sort of mod.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Not dissing the 911s. They are fantastic cars and faster in stock lap times (like Nurburgring times vs M4 GTS) and perhaps easier to drive faster. But believe it or not, F8x can be driven pretty close to GT3/GT3RS at shorter local circuits
IMO, for much less cost. It's a cost efficiency issue.

With mods and lots more hp, sure anything is achievable especially when a turbo motor means massive gains for downpipes and a tune. Same argument goes for my 991.2 S or T. With a tune and sport cats, I have 500-600 hp and a car that is 32xx lbs and can run with or better than a GT3 car, but then again, it’s no longer stock and kind of an invalid argument to me. Stock for stock, they’re worlds apart as you know. The real race pace on a GT car over many laps when you’re really racing is certainly better IMO. It’s odd to me, bc the GT3 is a much more nimble car and the M3/4 just feel big comparably and always found with mods they did better on wide courses. The GT excels at both. Realistically, there are cars even cheaper with mods that you can run - again modding throws all the comparisons out the window. A GT3 can be modded and run much faster as well but it does cost more. Then again, those cars hold value unlike many others.
Beyond that, the GT3 will eventually be a turbo motor too, and at that point you’ll have a similar car to a 2RS which few cars can touch modded or not.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by alscks0414

However, after seeing the new 2 series grand coupe, now i am even started to worry if BMW will keep this front wheel biased drivetrain with ZF auto for next G87 M2?! Hell no..... please..

The 2 series GC is based upon the new 1 series. The G87 will be a completely different animal with RWD. Probably something like a shrunken G82 with the S58.

[alscks0414]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

The 2 series GC is based upon the new 1 series. The G87 will be a completely different animal with RWD. Probably something like a shrunken G82 with the S58.

I know it is based on new 1 series that is not available in NA. They should not have called it as 2 series, just making more confusion

[doberzus]

At least BMW is not putting an I4 Hybrid engine into the new M3/M4 like the route the new C63 "AMG" is going. It's the strict regulations. Otherwise we'd still have V10 M5's.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...ybrid-four-pot

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

To wit:

https://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/201850/bmw...led-mediocrity

hilariously sad but also on point

oh well.

We could all just continue to enjoy cheap lease of non M 3er + sportier cars from other brands

[CachacoF80]

992 or Cayman GT4. Or wait for new Lotus. I regret selling my Elise.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Tommy L Garage

I don’t remember people gating the F30 when it first came out. It was just a natural progression. But the G30 update just blew it. It’s not much different from a Lexus and the side profile is so weak. Interior wise - yes it’s different from F30s but not much so. Overall design is still the same. They should have completely revamped the interior the same way Audi just did.

Anyways....I am not excited about any new BMW out there. By the time I’m tired of my F80 it will be time to upgrade so a 911 C4S - that will make a perfect train commuter car!

True story, I was behind a G30 and some Lexus the other day and they were basically indistinguishable from the rear. BMW has absolutely f'd their designs up horribly with these new models, the back of the G30 looks nothing like a BMW of any kind that I know of.

[gatorfast]

Meh let's just wait until the new car is actually released. 95% of the people complaining will be in one once they are out and all of the sudden their F8x seems dated and slow.

[Humdizzle]

after seeing the g20 and now the new 2-series... i really can't see how BMW can turn the M versions into anything that i'd want to look at in my garage.

if you want manual + rwd there aren't many options left. You gotta go 718, GT4, 911.. and thats pretty much it. The astons in the price range are dated as hell. The z06 and viper are too brash and have some quality control issues compared to the germans.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ilia

Unfortunately sales drive design. I have sensed the "softening" of the brand and transition to luxury since the e30 generation.

Fixed that for you

Originally Posted by ilia

The M cars used to be the jack of all trades. Drive it in summer and winter with some track time in between. It used to be an affordable sports car. Now they are becoming excessively expensive and not as much fun to drive. It's a compromise car, not truly a sports car, but not fully a luxury machine either. Just like an all season tire - semi good at everything, but not excellent at anything. The budget has also changed substantially in order to afford a M. If you had the money to buy a sports car and a daily driver, then why buy the M. I believe a new M price is on par with the fore mentioned budget. Just how I feel at this time.

I have to disagree with you here, since I think you are contradicting yourself. Yes ///M cars, particularly the M3(4), have always been jack of all trades since their onset, which inherently means they are a compromise. That is their basic design intent and that is their appeal (at least to me). I've used my all ///Ms as dual use cars, practical (and relatively luxurious) daily drivers and track toys (I do ~20 track days a year). I'd say the M3(4) has kept getting better and better with every generation at this dual use. I've said fondly of all my ///Ms that they are not the best at anything, but they are the second best at everything . They are the ultimate compromise.

If one is looking for a purpose sports car, the M3(4) is not where to look at. I'd also say that if one is looking for a purpose luxury daily driver, the M3(4) is not where to look at either.

Regarding price, I also don't agree. When considering inflation, the base price of my F82 in 2014 was quite lower than the base price of my E46 in 2000, and the F82 has much more standard features an amenities. Sure, you can now lux them out with options, but from a base price perspective they actually got cheaper.

Originally Posted by ilia

Luxury has more appeal to a greater amount of customers, so there's the necessary shift in strategy. There are a lot more M's sold and profits keep growing monthly. Will I buy another BMW? Probably not, but I'm probably in the minority of customers.

I do agree that the market demographics for ///M cars has evolved though, where more and more folks are looking at ///M for the ultimate daily driver, which has brought more bias towards luxury and comfort to the base variant. BMW has responded by offering more variations of each ///M model. The CS suits my needs better since it is slightly more focused towards track use. Others will prefer the base or competition variants for their needs.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

No, I’m not enthused about their direction.

I grew up idolizing the same models as you. E36 then E46 and E39.

Those cars were imperfect, but this was BMW’s golden age IMO, which evolved and concluded with the E9X.

The current M2 is a poor substitute for an E46. Sorry, just no.

The F90 is amazing in many ways. Can’t hold a candle to the character, appeal, fricking magic of the E39.

You always adjust to speed, acceleration. The body and mind become acclimated. That’s the fundamental error of BMW’s full buy into the horsepower war. I’m numb to it. Honestly, I don’t care if the next M5 has 850 hp. Soon enough everything will accelerate to 60 in <3 seconds.

I think that M division should have checked out of the horsepower war long ago. Balanced emissions requirements with EV’s and hybrids across their base model range, and focused on building naturally-aspirated, special cars. That WAS M division. That’s their core identity – I remember, I was there, they’re not fooling me… It would have been possible. Porsche GT division is managing.

How much would I give for a slightly modernized (DCT) version of an E46 M3 CSL? E39 M5 (no adjustments necessary)? An S65 with ~500 hp that revs to 9k in combination with cylinder deactivation and F8X level chassis?

But they’re obviously headed toward all-wheel drive turbos and hybridization. Cars that are bigger every gen (WHY?). And a design concept/look that to me says, “we’ve run out of ideas…” They’re not going to pull a rabbit out of a hat. The new M5 is a preview, just as the E60 was a preview for the E9X. Predict the upcoming M3/M4 will be massively capable, obnoxiously styled (apparently), and that’s about it.

Very possible that my BMW stable remains unchanged (E90 and GTS), and I move on. Keep an eye out for clean, low mileage E46’s and E39’s. I check out EnthusiastAuto hazardously often.

My heart and mind are drawn toward older gen M cars and Porsche GT cars nowadays. And I appreciate what the Americans are doing. I’ve almost tuned out of BMW’s developments. I’d like to be convinced otherwise, but the formula is the formula. They'll never get close to the M cars I idolized and enjoyed with the current formula.

100% agreed to all of this.

Most of my interaction with BMW's modern lineup at this point is... laughing at it.

E.g.

20 years ago, that would be been my go to car. An actually small BMW sedan (something they haven't made for years)? Fuck yes! Can't wait for the high revving, linear, responsive NA engine, rwd, manual trans, and amazing steering feel, in a compact but practical package, with no gimmicks to distract from the driving experience!

Instead... it's none of that. Everything, EVERY SINGLE THING, I used to choose BMW for has been removed from the brand.

Someone needs to get off the performance numbers train and go back to focusing on driving experience. The numbers are all fast enough that it hasn't actually made for a better driving experience for many years.

Until then, I'll maintain and drive my older BMWs till it's illegal to drive your own car (so some company comes to their senses).

[FormulaMMM]

No doubt we sound like old fogeys to the younger gens on here, but I'm with you… I saw that nerdy thing on the homepage and sprinted to the GTS subforum as fast as I could.

If it weren't for the GTS I would have skipped the F8X gen altogether (would have maybe considered a CS too). GTS is an illustration of how extreme they had to go to reintroduce some E46'ness to the experience. FWIW, they did succeed. GTS is the most visceral BMW I've ever driven outside of my buddy's emptied, track-prepped E36 M3.

But now with them engineering the next gen as turbo AND awd, more size, more tech, I think it's another turning point. They've fully checked out of the fundamental M formula. I don't need to "wait and see." I have plenty of road and track time in the new M5, and again, the formula is the formula. They're not magicians. I never wanted a GT-R.

Here's an anecdote --

My still very rad mother has driven 335 variants since 2006. If you ask her which was her favorite, it's the original (E90). No hesitation. She uses words & phrases like "just seemed more together and involving," "tight," "responsive," "active." So, that's her perception, whilst driving to and from the antique show. She put 100k+ miles on that E90, persevered through I don't know how many failed fuel pumps.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

No doubt we sound like old fogeys to the younger gens on here, but I'm with you… I saw that nerdy thing on the homepage and sprinted to the GTS subforum as fast as I could.

If it weren't for the GTS I would have skipped the F8X gen altogether (would have maybe considered a CS too). GTS is an illustration of how extreme they had to go to reintroduce some E46'ness to the experience. FWIW, they did succeed. GTS is the most visceral BMW I've ever driven outside of my buddy's emptied, track-prepped E36 M3.

But now with them engineering the next gen as turbo AND awd, more size, more tech, I think it's another turning point. They've fully checked out of the fundamental M formula. I don't need to "wait and see." I have plenty of road and track time in the new M5, and again, the formula is the formula. They're not magicians. I never wanted a GT-R.

Here's an anecdote --

My still very rad mother has driven 335 variants since 2006. If you ask her which was her favorite, it's the original (E90). No hesitation. She uses words & phrases like "just seemed more together and involving," "tight," "responsive," "active." So, that's her perception, whilst driving to and from the antique show. She put 100k+ miles on that E90, persevered through I don't know how many failed fuel pumps.

Ha, my mom just this week finally, with great sadness, moved on from her e46 non M that they bought new in 2004. She hasn't found anything she likes better, still (for the same reasons you listed), but she doesn't DIY and it was getting too much to pay other people to do it as she neared 200,000 miles.

She didn't buy another BMW.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Ha, my mom just this week finally, with great sadness, moved on from her e46 non M that they bought new in 2004. She hasn't found anything she likes better, still (for the same reasons you listed), but she doesn't DIY and it was getting too much to pay other people to do it as she neared 200,000 miles.

That's awesome!

[bagekko]

Nah the Z3 was so much rawer. Drop my M4 motor in the Z3 I used to have and it would be so much fun.

The new Z4/Supra is so big they should of thrown a back seat into it.

Originally Posted by NickyC

I just wish they'd remake Z4Ms, I'd never drive anything else.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by bagekko

Nah the Z3 was so much rawer. Drop my M4 motor in the Z3 I used to have and it would be so much fun.

The new Z4/Supra is so big they should of thrown a back seat into it.

I had four different Z3Ms including a Coupe with the S54, there is NOTHING I liked from those cars compared to the Z4M. Maybe the two tone interiors some had, but even now that looks dated. I'm not saying the Z3Ms were bad cars, but I have zero desire to own another one. The Z4M meanwhile, I can't stop thinking about it.

Agreed on the Zupra, too expensive and no 6MT means no go for me.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I had four different Z3Ms including a Coupe with the S54, there is NOTHING I liked from those cars compared to the Z4M. Maybe the two tone interiors some had, but even now that looks dated. I'm not saying the Z3Ms were bad cars, but I have zero desire to own another one. The Z4M meanwhile, I can't stop thinking about it.

Agreed on the Zupra, too expensive and no 6MT means no go for me.

Prefacing with this with the fact that I prefer the Z4M to the Z3M, but just for the sake of fairness:
-The Z3M interior is way better than the Z4M interior
-The Z3M (coupe vs coupe) has a much more usable trunk area
-The Z3M is significantly smaller, and feels more playful as a result
-Subjective, but I think the Z3M is better looking car

Z4/Supra holds zero appeal to me-- turbos, automatic, eps, idrive crap. More of the same modern BMW crap squished into a different shape.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Obioban

100% agreed to all of this.

Most of my interaction with BMW's modern lineup at this point is... laughing at it.

E.g.

20 years ago, that would be been my go to car. An actually small BMW sedan (something they haven't made for years)? Fuck yes! Can't wait for the high revving, linear, responsive NA engine, rwd, manual trans, and amazing steering feel, in a compact but practical package, with no gimmicks to distract from the driving experience!

Instead... it's none of that. Everything, EVERY SINGLE THING, I used to choose BMW for has been removed from the brand.

Someone needs to get off the performance numbers train and go back to focusing on driving experience. The numbers are all fast enough that it hasn't actually made for a better driving experience for many years.

Until then, I'll maintain and drive my older BMWs till it's illegal to drive your own car (so some company comes to their senses).

That isn't happening until sales decline. And the F8X gen was a massive sales success so they aren't changing anytime soon is my guess.

Unfortunately the older car enthusiasts are getting replaced by a newer breed that wants what BMW (and others) are selling. They are already being replaced by a generation that wants nothing to do with driving.

There are few cars being sold today that you and others like you would actually want to buy (not a newsflash to you I know ), but there are still some interesting rawish cars out there. US manufacturers are doing it, but even the GT350s and SS/ZL1 1LEs are heavier cars. In Fords case they have serious quality/reliability issues. I'll find out in a year if I'm going down the same road with GM. Miatas are fun, but just a two seater and need more power IMO. Same with some Alfas, but everyone knows their issues except for some fanboys. Then you get into the exotics which is where BMW used to fill in the lower niche. Porsche has always been overpriced and everytime I finally think about pulling the trigger on a 911, I drive one and find them too good, too isolating and not a lot of good drama. A GT4 would be awesome, but again two seater.

The M4 CS actually is a really fun good car, (I know turbos), but it would of been even more fun with a MT, MP HAS and better steel brakes standard. I'm sure the GTS is a riot, but again no manual and too extreme for people that need back seats etc. Also BMW effed up by originally way over pricing them so we'll see if they develop these same versions of the G series. BMWs sweet spot is a manual M2 comp now IMO and maybe M2 CS, but I'm guessing it will only come with a DCT.

So yeah, I can definitely see where you are coning fun as there are a lot of great cars out there, ut few truly interesting involving ones to drive. Especially at a non exotic price point.

[Habber]

I guess I'm going on a different direction since I decided to get rid of F80 and get into M2C since manual is my objective.

If I wasn't such a diehard 6MT person, the new Charger Widebody scat pack would be my #1 choice. That sounds and looks are amazing for what they are asking.