M4 vs TRACTION

[Acturater]

Now that many of us have had more time with the F8X generation, any new thoughts on this front? Dry/wet, warm/cold, tire/wheel size, straight line/turn ins&outs etc...

[TahoeM3]

I found as other have that going to 295 rears helps to a degree, but this car is still traction limited. I'm a little fed up over it...anything more than light throttle in 1st or 2nd and my tires light up and the back end moves around.

I think the only solution is to have a tune limiting power in 1st and 2nd as Ferrari has done in the California T.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

I found as other have that going to 295 rears helps to a degree, but this car is still traction limited. I'm a little fed up over it...anything more than light throttle in 1st or 2nd and my tires light up and the back end moves around.

I think the only solution is to have a tune limiting power in 1st and 2nd as Ferrari has done in the California T.

dct? manual?

are you on sports plus? and s3?

have you tried throttle: sports and s2?

I get the traction issue, but I don't want a nanny having to give me help either.

I see that you drove a lot of AWD cars, it can be hard to see why a rwd is so touchy when awd is so perfect off the line.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

dct? manual?

are you on sports plus? and s3?

have you tried throttle: sports and s2?

I get the traction issue, but I don't want a nanny having to give me help either.

I see that you drove a lot of AWD cars, it can be hard to see why a rwd is so touchy when awd is so perfect off the line.

DCT, sports (moved from sports plus last year), and S2. I've had plenty of RWD cars, but this one does seem particularly sensitive. Turbo engines seem to go better with AWD. I really do think it would be faster with less boost in 1st and 2nd in this setting, and then full boost in 3rd. It's one thing to modulate throttle, but having the rear step out when you go over 25% throttle is a bit annoying.

Alternatives would be taller gearing or some as yet unidentified tire package, but neither of those are feasible options. I'm curious to see the test results on the competition package cars, but at this point I'm not expecting much.

A supercharged engine would probably be better in that regard as well. The Jaguar F-Type V8S RWD puts the power down much better off the line in my experience, for example.

[doberzus]

My F80 has been awesome in regards to traction, from 2nd and up. Also, I would like to state that wider tires are NOT going to aid straight line traction. However, Stickier+Taller tires will do the job. I'm going Nitto 555Rs(285/40R18's) here in the coming months.

I have a 6MT, 18's(stock MPSS/taller tire) M adaptive set to Comfort, steering in Comfort. MDM or TC off I can get WOT 2nd gear traction in 40-60 degrees. Any throttle mode, Sport+ being slightly twitchy(too sensitive)

I am also at ~4500ft above sea level and only have access to 91.

Just thought I'd share, I think taking all the considerations into account explains how I can dead hook 2nd from 10-70, 30-70, or even 40-70 in 2nd.

Now I just want to hook 1st, can't wait for the 555Rs!

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

DCT, sports (moved from sports plus last year), and S2. I've had plenty of RWD cars, but this one does seem particularly sensitive. Turbo engines seem to go better with AWD. I really do think it would be faster with less boost in 1st and 2nd in this setting, and then full boost in 3rd. It's one thing to modulate throttle, but having the rear step out when you go over 25% throttle is a bit annoying.

Alternatives would be taller gearing or some as yet unidentified tire package, but neither of those are feasible options. I'm curious to see the test results on the competition package cars, but at this point I'm not expecting much.

A supercharged engine would probably be better in that regard as well. The Jaguar F-Type V8S RWD puts the power down much better off the line in my experience, for example.

on the F type- i suspect the zf 8 speed is tuned with the engine to limit the throttle off the line, but the car weighs more too i believe.

probably a combination of larger width and pilot sport cup 2's would help.

for the most part, I have noticed a couple of instances when i lose traction on WOT, but i do drive in sports plus and s3. i try to get it rolling and then apply throttle more gradually. seems to be fine for me at least. definitely sensitive and needs a lot of practice.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by doberzus

My F80 has been awesome in regards to traction, from 2nd and up. Also I would like to state that wider tires are NOT going to aid straight line traction. However, Stickier+Taller tires will do the job. I'm going Nitto 555Rs(285/40R18's) here in the coming months.

I have a 6MT, 18's(stock MPSS/taller tire) M adaptive set to Comfort, steering in Comfort. MDM or TC off I can get WOT 2nd gear traction in 40-60 degrees.

I am also at ~4500ft above sea level and only have access to 91.

Just thought I'd share, I think taking all the considerations into account explains how I can dead hook 2nd from 10-70, 30-70, or even 40-70.

Now I just want to hook 1st, can't wait for the 555Rs!

From my test drive it seemed 1st gear on that car (DCT) was too short and sensitive to a little extra throttle. I would guess that would be less so on the longer geared manual.

In 3rd gear going up a highway ramp (straight) under heavy throttle the traction light was blinking pretty good but it stayed true and never lost much forward acceleration. I thought that was better than expected considering it was 35F outside and the car was on Continental summer tires.

[doberzus]

Just from browsing this forum over the last year and a half, it seems DCT cars are more prone to traction issues.

I've seen CanAut post something about torque multiplication being higher in 1st and 2nd gear on he DCT?! Seems being in S3 doesn't help traction. This car has to be in the mildest settings for optimal traction... Lame.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by doberzus

Just from browsing this forum over the last year and a half, it seems DCT cars are more prone to traction issues.

I've seen CanAut post something about torque multiplication being higher in 1st and 2nd gear on he DCT?! Seems being in S3 doesn't help traction. This car has to be in the mildest settings for optimal traction... Lame.

i have dct. im very happy with the car.

i drive in s3 and sports plus almost all the time. Only when I WOT will there be a need to modulate the throttle. ex. off the line, or getting on the freeway speeds- etc.

honestly, if you are often WOT on public roads with this car, you're going to end up in jail or dead or worse, hurting others. driving around in this car is a constant act of restraint.

[doberzus]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

i have dct. im very happy with the car.

i drive in s3 and sports plus almost all the time. Only when I WOT will there be a need to modulate the throttle. ex. off the line, or getting on the freeway speeds- etc.

honestly, if you are often WOT on public roads with this car, you're going to end up in jail or dead or worse, hurting others. driving around in this car is a constant act of restraint.

I agree, I fight temptation to go WOT everyday... We all suffer from these symptoms. However, I enjoy my life and my license, so I keep the speeds in check. I guess people need to practice throttle modulation and use common sense.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by doberzus

My F80 has been awesome in regards to traction, from 2nd and up. Also, I would like to state that wider tires are NOT going to aid straight line traction. However, Stickier+Taller tires will do the job. I'm going Nitto 555Rs(285/40R18's) here in the coming months.

I have a 6MT, 18's(stock MPSS/taller tire) M adaptive set to Comfort, steering in Comfort. MDM or TC off I can get WOT 2nd gear traction in 40-60 degrees. Any throttle mode, Sport+ being slightly twitchy(too sensitive)

I am also at ~4500ft above sea level and only have access to 91.

Just thought I'd share, I think taking all the considerations into account explains how I can dead hook 2nd from 10-70, 30-70, or even 40-70 in 2nd.

Now I just want to hook 1st, can't wait for the 555Rs!

Yeah I think, but cannot prove, that the f80 is probably better in this respect than the f82 based on the proportions and added weight over the rear axle. Also the gearing of the manual is taller as others have noted, and I'm in Florida where we have 93 octane and higher humidity, both of which are working against me getting traction off the line.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

i have dct. im very happy with the car.

i drive in s3 and sports plus almost all the time. Only when I WOT will there be a need to modulate the throttle. ex. off the line, or getting on the freeway speeds- etc.

honestly, if you are often WOT on public roads with this car, you're going to end up in jail or dead or worse, hurting others. driving around in this car is a constant act of restraint.

It's not WOT that I'm talking about...I'm talking about pulling out of Starbucks in 2nd gear and if I go over 25% throttle and the back end starts to slide into the next lane. It's better than when I was on stock tires where it would fishtail badly, but it could definitely be much better.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

It's not WOT that I'm talking about...I'm talking about pulling out of Starbucks in 2nd gear and if I go over 25% throttle and the back end starts to slide into the next lane. It's better than when I was on stock tires where it would fishtail badly, but it could definitely be much better.

woah.. i've not experienced that.

low humidity here and usually pretty hot in Southern CA.

i wonder if pilot cups would help. and read what this guy (must be a modded s5) wrote compared to the pss:

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

I think the only solution is to have a tune limiting power in 1st and 2nd as Ferrari has done in the California T.

That would piss me off .

I rather have my right foot do that .

[minn19]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Yeah I think, but cannot prove, that the f80 is probably better in this respect than the f82 based on the proportions and added weight over the rear axle. Also the gearing of the manual is taller as others have noted, and I'm in Florida where we have 93 octane and higher humidity, both of which are working against me getting traction off the line.

I've had both and they feel the same to me. Both are/were DCT as well.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by doberzus

Just from browsing this forum over the last year and a half, it seems DCT cars are more prone to traction issues.

I've seen CanAut post something about torque multiplication being higher in 1st and 2nd gear on he DCT?! Seems being in S3 doesn't help traction. This car has to be in the mildest settings for optimal traction... Lame.

True.

The DCT has 17% and 12% more torque multiplication than the 6MT in 1st and 2nd gear respectively.

3rd and 4th also have more torque multiplication by 10% and 8%, but since traction is much less of an issue in those gears, it is less noticeable.

The poor overall gear ratio selection on the F8X DCT has been an old gripe of mine. I complained about it before I ordered my car and confirmed my suspicions were true after I took delivery. I am still happy with the DCT, but it could have been better with ratios better matched to the S55 characteristics.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Yeah I think, but cannot prove, that the f80 is probably better in this respect than the f82 based on the proportions and added weight over the rear axle.

Going from the measured front/rear weight distribution from various Car & Driver road tests, the M3 would have a ~0.8% traction advantage over the M4 (~15lb over the rear axle). I seriously doubt that anyone could feel that.

[Ian1973]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

It's not WOT that I'm talking about...I'm talking about pulling out of Starbucks in 2nd gear and if I go over 25% throttle and the back end starts to slide into the next lane. It's better than when I was on stock tires where it would fishtail badly, but it could definitely be much better.

I have noticed in certain areas of my commute (for instance), the pavement is different. It looks the same, feels the same, but it's more slippery for some strange reason. I can think of two spots on my drive to work that I slide all over the place even in the dry. I don't know if there is oil under the asphalt or what, but I think even the most numb people would notice it.

Maybe in some of the situations you have had, there could be an explanation like this?

I don't notice the rear stepping out like that for me and I run TC off all the time.

[BwoodBMW]

I wish that the traction control was a bit less intrusive but truthfully one of the things I love about my car is that it is taking me months to learn how to drive it well... I adore my dad's 997 turbo but that car almost anybody can drive like a rock star. The F8xs actually have a serious learning curve. Drove me nuts at first but now it's fun. Little things like proper foot positioning on the pedal (which I learned from a post here) actually can make meaningful differences.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Going from the measured front/rear weight distribution from various Car & Driver road tests, the M3 would have a ~0.8% traction advantage over the M4 (~15lb over the rear axle). I seriously doubt that anyone could feel that.

I'm surprised by that...looking at the two from the side, there looks to be more metal and glass directly over the rear wheels of the M3, whereas on the M4 it seems to be more to the front.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by Ian1973

I have noticed in certain areas of my commute (for instance), the pavement is different. It looks the same, feels the same, but it's more slippery for some strange reason. I can think of two spots on my drive to work that I slide all over the place even in the dry. I don't know if there is oil under the asphalt or what, but I think even the most numb people would notice it.

Maybe in some of the situations you have had, there could be an explanation like this?

I don't notice the rear stepping out like that for me and I run TC off all the time.

This is definitely possible, but I notice it pretty frequently. The roads are smooth here, but the humidity is quite high. This happens even when the roads are dry.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

I'm surprised by that...looking at the two from the side, there looks to be more metal and glass directly over the rear wheels of the M3, whereas on the M4 it seems to be more to the front.

I guess looks can be deceiving