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      09-06-2017, 06:03 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Jono2112 View Post
This also makes leasing more and more attractive. Hopefully Georgia will start allowing normal leases where you pay tax on the amount of car you lease rather than the 7.5% tax on the whole value of the car which you currently have to pay. It's hard enough to buy a $50,000-$80,000 car without coming up with another $3,750-$6,000 in tax. I also hope BMW lease residuals start reflecting reality or I may be back to buying used VW or Toyotas!
My understanding is this law did change and will go into effect Jan 2018.

http://www.cnhi.com/featured_stories...0f9cadd1b.html
http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/...0172018/HB/340


However, I am bit confused because I would have expected massive celebrations in the streets (and by car dealers).
Interesting. Sonic/Penske/Jim Ellis automotive must have cut some nice checks. It's kind of sad really.
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      09-06-2017, 07:26 PM   #112
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It's still funny. The only profit BMW stands to make on a CPO car is the CPO fee, margin from parts to get the car ready for sale and any finance charges they can make.

BMW makes money selling and leasing NEW cars. There's more incentive for them to focus on improving that side than CPO sales. All about getting those RDR's and saying you beat Audi/MB/Lexus year over year.
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      09-06-2017, 08:29 PM   #113
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Wow, bad news. This sucks. Was looking fwd to a CPO M4 sometime next year too
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      09-06-2017, 09:58 PM   #114
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You guys do know that, if you want to complain about anything, copy and paste whatever you wrote here and forward it to BMWNA customer relationship is more effective correct? Well, at least that's what I've been doing.
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      09-07-2017, 04:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Well, following your line of thinking, ultimately if the strategy you outlined is effective and the buyers pay more, then it was worth more to the buyers.

I never understand why people think car companies (particularly premium luxury brands) are in business to maximize value or provide great deals to customers. If they have a great product at a price people find acceptable, it works. If they don't then it fails. Simple. I think most of the overreactions in this thread are comical.
Notice, at no point did I disparage anyone's opinion by calling it, "comical," the countervailing argument was stated. Stating that if buyers pay more , then it was worth it to more buyers might be true and it's the strategy behind BMW's move. BMW's bottom line is not what I'm arguing for here. Nor am I disparaging the actual BMW product vs another. I'm simply stating that just as when BMW removed the unlimited maintenance from their 4yr./50,000 mi warranty, by decreasing the CPO warranty to 1 yr., they have reduced the value of the deal from the buyer's perspective. This places the buyer in a weaker bargaining position. This is my point and nothing else. I don't view this as a positive development from the individual buyer's perspective, independent of the affect on BMW's sales which are influenced by many factors other than price.

There is nothing wrong BMW enthusiasts and BMW customers stating their displeasure with an obvious cost cutting measure and loss in bargaining position on a CPO vehicle on this forum. In fact it seems quite the natural reaction and majority opinion. Would you have them be silent?
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      09-07-2017, 05:16 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrack View Post
Notice, at no point did I disparage anyone's opinion by calling it, "comical," the countervailing argument was stated. Stating that if buyers pay more , then it was worth it to more buyers might be true and it's the strategy behind BMW's move. BMW's bottom line is not what I'm arguing for here. Nor am I disparaging the actual BMW product vs another. I'm simply stating that just as when BMW removed the unlimited maintenance from their 4yr./50,000 mi warranty, by decreasing the CPO warranty to 1 yr., they have reduced the value of the deal from the buyer's perspective. This places the buyer in a weaker bargaining position. This is my point and nothing else. I don't view this as a positive development from the individual buyer's perspective, independent of the affect on BMW's sales which are influenced by many factors other than price.

There is nothing wrong BMW enthusiasts and BMW customers stating their displeasure with an obvious cost cutting measure and loss in bargaining position on a CPO vehicle on this forum. In fact it seems quite the natural reaction and majority opinion. Would you have them be silent?
I never insinuated people should remain silent but my opinion is many of the posts in this thread are overreactions and I find them comical. Do you think starting a thread for people to post overreactions will get BMW to change their policy?
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      09-07-2017, 10:34 AM   #117
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When this thread started, I knew there would be those that would put a positive spin on BMW's reduction of the included CPO warranty. Stating things like, and I'm paraphrasing, "The dealer has to pay for those CPO warranties anyway, so this will lower prices of CPO vehicles" and " this just provides more options, you can always bargain for extended warranties" You are entitled to your opinions however, I would just say to counter that line of thought, make no mistake about it value has been removed from the buyer side of the equation at the start of the negotiation process. There is no guarantee that CPO prices will be reduced, in fact I think dealers will see this as an opportunity to increase their profit margin and not lower CPO vehicle prices at all. Anyone in sales or part of any price based negotiation knows that as the seller you want to start with the highest price possible. As a buyer, the converse is true, you want to start with the lowest selling price possible. By reducing the term of the CPO warranty, BMW has decreased the value of what it's selling putting the buyer in a weaker position at the beginning of the negotiation. In my opinion, there is no way to see this as a net positive. Also, arguing that other brands are not as good as BMWs so, why would you jump ship, is not really the issue. It's about the loss of value in purchasing a BMW. BMW corporate has made a business decision to remove value from the buyer side of the sales equation. They did this to increase the profit they make on their cars. If this strategy is successful, the buyer will ultimately pay more for their cars or have less warranty coverage.

My thoughts exactly. I think there is some argument to be made that this is an improvement over the old Elite program, and it likely won't cost those buyers much more. But anyone used to the 3 yr old lease return CPO market will get less value for the price they pay. Maybe BMW figures this won't reduce residuals on leases any more than they have already adjusted them in the last year. Time will tell. My local dealer has now updated for the new CPO but has left prices exactly the same. Maybe they will have more wiggle room on the price now for people that know to ask, but it's now harder, as a consumer, to find the bottom price.

Last edited by der_kommissar; 09-07-2017 at 10:44 AM..
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      09-08-2017, 10:22 PM   #118
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It really looks like the e92 m3 will be my last bmw. Sad because that was the third consecutive bmw I bought and wanted to keep the trend going but they are not giving me any reason to. Well it's been a good run bmw.
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      09-09-2017, 12:33 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono2112 View Post
I also heard that it changes the first of 2018. Dealers had special programs to get around the law. One was rather than a lease it was more like you bought the car, but financed it to pay for only the time you were going to keep it, with a huge ballon payment at the end. That way you're financing the tax rather than paying it at once. If you get out of the lease, your selling the car back to the dealer, if you buy, then you refinance the ballon payment and don't have to pay the tax again. It's a bad deal for the dealer and a worse deal for the lease holder. A real lease will be welcomed by all.
In Canada, BMW Financial offers "Owner's Choice" which is basically what you discuss above. The big difference is that the residuals are low so that you build equity in the car and therefore have a "built-in" down payment when you come back to the dealer at the end of the term. The technique keeps the car in the BMW Financial family and therefore the dealers like the program. Especially in medium sized cities like mine where the next closest BMW dealer is a four hour drive.
Here is the perfect scenario for the CDN dealership ... Move out a new car on lease that typically comes back after three years. Now sell the car on Owner's Choice and CPO for three more years of full coverage. Then, sometime between the third and fourth year of the term, the customer comes back to the dealership to turn it in as BMW Financial owns the paper. Cash out your equity and apply it to your next vehicle.
The last thing the dealer wants to do is have you come back to the dealership and be upside down on your owners choice ... that's why the low residuals are key.
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      09-09-2017, 12:43 PM   #120
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      09-10-2017, 11:15 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrammer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono2112 View Post
I also heard that it changes the first of 2018. Dealers had special programs to get around the law. One was rather than a lease it was more like you bought the car, but financed it to pay for only the time you were going to keep it, with a huge ballon payment at the end. That way you're financing the tax rather than paying it at once. If you get out of the lease, your selling the car back to the dealer, if you buy, then you refinance the ballon payment and don't have to pay the tax again. It's a bad deal for the dealer and a worse deal for the lease holder. A real lease will be welcomed by all.
In Canada, BMW Financial offers "Owner's Choice" which is basically what you discuss above. The big difference is that the residuals are low so that you build equity in the car and therefore have a "built-in" down payment when you come back to the dealer at the end of the term. The technique keeps the car in the BMW Financial family and therefore the dealers like the program. Especially in medium sized cities like mine where the next closest BMW dealer is a four hour drive.
Here is the perfect scenario for the CDN dealership ... Move out a new car on lease that typically comes back after three years. Now sell the car on Owner's Choice and CPO for three more years of full coverage. Then, sometime between the third and fourth year of the term, the customer comes back to the dealership to turn it in as BMW Financial owns the paper. Cash out your equity and apply it to your next vehicle.
The last thing the dealer wants to do is have you come back to the dealership and be upside down on your owners choice ... that's why the low residuals are key.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrammer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono2112 View Post
I also heard that it changes the first of 2018. Dealers had special programs to get around the law. One was rather than a lease it was more like you bought the car, but financed it to pay for only the time you were going to keep it, with a huge ballon payment at the end. That way you're financing the tax rather than paying it at once. If you get out of the lease, your selling the car back to the dealer, if you buy, then you refinance the ballon payment and don't have to pay the tax again. It's a bad deal for the dealer and a worse deal for the lease holder. A real lease will be welcomed by all.
In Canada, BMW Financial offers "Owner's Choice" which is basically what you discuss above. The big difference is that the residuals are low so that you build equity in the car and therefore have a "built-in" down payment when you come back to the dealer at the end of the term. The technique keeps the car in the BMW Financial family and therefore the dealers like the program. Especially in medium sized cities like mine where the next closest BMW dealer is a four hour drive.
Here is the perfect scenario for the CDN dealership ... Move out a new car on lease that typically comes back after three years. Now sell the car on Owner's Choice and CPO for three more years of full coverage. Then, sometime between the third and fourth year of the term, the customer comes back to the dealership to turn it in as BMW Financial owns the paper. Cash out your equity and apply it to your next vehicle.
The last thing the dealer wants to do is have you come back to the dealership and be upside down on your owners choice ... that's why the low residuals are key.
Not a bad concept for the dealer and the owner that wants to stay in a BMW. But in the us we see lower residuals equal higher monthly payments without any equity. They get you coming and going!
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      09-10-2017, 11:18 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise View Post
Sounds like BMW following in Mercedes footsteps. Mercedes did this years ago.

More cost cutting by BMW...
Which means more cost cutting by consumers.....BMW isnt going to win customers with shenanigans like this.
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      09-12-2017, 10:17 PM   #123
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It's interesting and somewhat comical to see the reaction of some to this change. So BMW changes CPO from 2yr/50K to 1yr/unlimited. That's only a difference of 1 year warranty. I might be in the minority, but I find it puzzling that 1 year of warranty would be enough to make one switch from BMW to another car maker. Yes, BMW's can be expensive to repair, but if you're so worried about that, you should probably be driving a Honda or Toyota anyways. I drive a BMW 528i because I LOVE the car, not because they gave me an extra year of warranty. Actually, I bought a non-CPO for much cheaper and purchased 3rd party warranty through Route 66. Just as good of warranty and it's covered for longer than CPO would have been. And by the way, it paid for itself already. (can you say N20 timing chain?)

Not trying to offend, just trying to inject some practicality. Yes, BMW is cutting costs. As is every other car maker out there. And by the way, have you driven a 320i? I'm more upset with how BMW has cheapened the interiors of these cars.

Here's my trick; I own a BMW car AND I own stock in BMW. As they cut costs to increase profits, the value of my car might go down, but the value of my stock goes up!!! It's a win win.... Relax and enjoy the ride....
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      09-12-2017, 10:29 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnook123 View Post
It's interesting and somewhat comical to see the reaction of some to this change. So BMW changes CPO from 2yr/50K to 1yr/unlimited. That's only a difference of 1 year warranty. I might be in the minority, but I find it puzzling that 1 year of warranty would be enough to make one switch from BMW to another car maker. Yes, BMW's can be expensive to repair, but if you're so worried about that, you should probably be driving a Honda or Toyota anyways. I drive a BMW 528i because I LOVE the car, not because they gave me an extra year of warranty. Actually, I bought a non-CPO for much cheaper and purchased 3rd party warranty through Route 66. Just as good of warranty and it's covered for longer than CPO would have been. And by the way, it paid for itself already. (can you say N20 timing chain?)

Not trying to offend, just trying to inject some practicality. Yes, BMW is cutting costs. As is every other car maker out there. And by the way, have you driven a 320i? I'm more upset with how BMW has cheapened the interiors of these cars.

Here's my trick; I own a BMW car AND I own stock in BMW. As they cut costs to increase profits, the value of my car might go down, but the value of my stock goes up!!! It's a win win.... Relax and enjoy the ride....
It's not just the reduction in CPO warranty. It's the combination of reduction in maintenance, reduction in Euro delivery discount, elimination of MSDs, significantly higher costs with leasing that has reduced the value in BMW cars. BMW might enjoy a small short term bump in profit, but their US sales are down and eliminating these things will cost them long term customer loyalty. Enjoy your stock value while it's still up!
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      09-13-2017, 11:00 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnook123 View Post
It's interesting and somewhat comical to see the reaction of some to this change. So BMW changes CPO from 2yr/50K to 1yr/unlimited. That's only a difference of 1 year warranty. I might be in the minority, but I find it puzzling that 1 year of warranty would be enough to make one switch from BMW to another car maker. Yes, BMW's can be expensive to repair, but if you're so worried about that, you should probably be driving a Honda or Toyota anyways. I drive a BMW 528i because I LOVE the car, not because they gave me an extra year of warranty. Actually, I bought a non-CPO for much cheaper and purchased 3rd party warranty through Route 66. Just as good of warranty and it's covered for longer than CPO would have been. And by the way, it paid for itself already. (can you say N20 timing chain?)

Not trying to offend, just trying to inject some practicality. Yes, BMW is cutting costs. As is every other car maker out there. And by the way, have you driven a 320i? I'm more upset with how BMW has cheapened the interiors of these cars.

Here's my trick; I own a BMW car AND I own stock in BMW. As they cut costs to increase profits, the value of my car might go down, but the value of my stock goes up!!! It's a win win.... Relax and enjoy the ride....
Route 66 is excluding certain BMW models such as my X3. Maybe I did make a mistake buying it used...

It's not as simple as you make it sound, there are many factors involved, and much more close competition than say 10 years ago.
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      09-16-2017, 12:38 PM   #126
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It seems even BMW is tired of expensive repair bills fixing their own vehicles.
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      09-17-2017, 08:52 AM   #127
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I guess they feel the BMW isn’t exclusive enough and there are too many on the road.
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      09-18-2017, 06:37 PM   #128
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TLDR

If a car was certified before this change does it have 2 years? Or is it from date of purchase? Looking at a car that was returned from lease in June.

Thanks!!

Last edited by Imola.ZHP; 09-19-2017 at 03:45 PM..
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      09-19-2017, 03:45 PM   #129
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      09-23-2017, 01:05 PM   #130
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Aug 27 -I negotiated a deal on another CPO F31
Sept 9 -I went to pick up the car (out of state)

When I went to finalize paperwork in person I saw the CPO expired in 2020 not 2021 as stated on the document I was emailed a week earlier. Interestingly, the original document said CPO was 'pending' but it had an expiration date of 2021.

After some further negotiation I ended up getting another year of warranty for $400. $1600 is stated retail value for the additional year and they offered to split it with me. Wholesale cost is $800 so I was willing to split that.

Since I was buying a unicorn I was willing to spend $400 more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
TLDR

If a car was certified before this change does it have 2 years? Or is it from date of purchase? Looking at a car that was returned from lease in June.

Thanks!!
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      09-27-2017, 07:47 AM   #131
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They dropped maintenance, that was one I could live with...
Then they quit covering several big $ items like iDrive for example...
Now they're dropping coverage to only a single year outside of warranty...

BMW doing everything they can to make me not want to get another one when I pull the trigger early next year...certainly not a daily driver anyway.
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      09-27-2017, 04:20 PM   #132
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I was at my dealer last week looking at a CPO 2015 M3 with 27k miles with about one year left on the 4/50k. Rep mentioned the one year/unlimited miles on the CPO. Figuring I drive about 10k per year, I’d never get to the unlimited miles or even close by 2019. The rep made it sound so great!

Unless I buy a new BMW, most likely I’ll move on to some other brand. My 1er is starting to get weird electrical gremlins and there’s less than one year left in my CPO.
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