Tire problems at first track day

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You guys can scream camber all you want, but if you look closely at the tires, CAMBER isn't the only or even primary issue. The tire wore fairly evenly all the way out except the outside shoulder.

Which indicates to me excessive speed scrubbing at corner entry. It's not the tires, nor the car, it's the DRIVER. You have to learn that screaming into a turn without slowing down the car isn't the fastest way around the track, nor the cheapest because you will eat up tires like crazy.

It's not only about camber, it's also about the PSS design. The outer portion of the tread that sees the most wear is made of a softer compound that works much harder than the rest of the tread and therefore builds up excessive heat which leads to melting and chunking. This dual tread compound design might be good for spirited street driving, but has however proven to be quite inadequate for sustained dry track use.

[robbo mcs]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You guys can scream camber all you want, but if you look closely at the tires, CAMBER isn't the only or even primary issue. The tire wore fairly evenly all the way out except the outside shoulder.

Which indicates to me excessive speed scrubbing at corner entry. It's not the tires, nor the car, it's the DRIVER. You have to learn that screaming into a turn without slowing down the car isn't the fastest way around the track, nor the cheapest because you will eat up tires like crazy.

Agree with this. It is very common for novice drivers to scrub out the outside of front tires. The result of overenthusiastic corner entry, and then severe understeer and scrubbing the tires.

Further experience, with good instruction will dramatically improve this, and you will get faster in the process.

However, I agree that ultimately camber plates will be a good investment, improve handling and prolong tire life

[mindspin311]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You guys can scream camber all you want, but if you look closely at the tires, CAMBER isn't the only or even primary issue. The tire wore fairly evenly all the way out except the outside shoulder.

Which indicates to me excessive speed scrubbing at corner entry. It's not the tires, nor the car, it's the DRIVER. You have to learn that screaming into a turn without slowing down the car isn't the fastest way around the track, nor the cheapest because you will eat up tires like crazy.

Nah, it's the tire. See my first post. PSS are NOT track tires.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by mindspin311

Nah, it's the tire. See my first post. PSS are NOT track tires.

They cord and chunk easily when you over-drive them, just like ANY street tires.

There are no such thing as street or track tires. You can drive any street tires on track. The ONLY difference is each tire’s ability to manage heat. If you dive bomb each corner exceeding the slip angles intended for the tire’s operation, turn after turn, lap after lap, no amount of “track” tires are going to survive excess slip angle for long.

Now, if you want to say that the Michelin Pilot Super Sports are not designed to operate above, say, 6-8 degrees of slip angle constantly? Yes I whole-heartedly agree. R-comps and slicks are required to handle 8-12 degrees of slip angle on tires consistently. But at that point you’re no longer learning to drive fast on track but relying on the tire’s ability to grip at the excess end of slip to get around corners. Someone who can consistently manage slip angle at the MPSS’s optimum slip is going to be FASTER around a typical track than someone who requires slick like slip angles if you ask me.

Based on OP’s posted picture, I can only come to the conclusion that the issue is NOT the tire, but how that tire is operated.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

They cord and chunk easily when you over-drive them, just like ANY street tires.

There are no such thing as street or track tires. You can drive any street tires on track. The ONLY difference is each tire’s ability to manage heat. If you dive bomb each corner exceeding the slip angles intended for the tire’s operation, turn after turn, lap after lap, no amount of “track” tires are going to survive excess slip angle for long.

Now, if you want to say that the Michelin Pilot Super Sports are not designed to operate above, say, 6-8 degrees of slip angle constantly? Yes I whole-heartedly agree. R-comps and slicks are required to handle 8-12 degrees of slip angle on tires consistently. But at that point you’re no longer learning to drive fast on track but relying on the tire’s ability to grip at the excess end of slip to get around corners. Someone who can consistently manage slip angle at the MPSS’s optimum slip is going to be FASTER around a typical track than someone who requires slick like slip angles if you ask me.

Based on OP’s posted picture, I can only come to the conclusion that the issue is NOT the tire, but how that tire is operated.

I beg to disagree. If one were to drive in a way to manage the wear of the PSS, one would be seriously slow around a track. The dual compound design of the PSS simply does not work for sustained dry track use.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by dth656

what would be the appropriate driver mod in this case? Braking more, slowing the car down more, then maintenance throttle until apex? and then add more throttle as you unwind the steering? is it possible to add more throttle prior to the apex?

Appropriate driver mod, IMO, is having an in-car coach or personal coach that can spend time with you on and off track to diagnose what you are doing right or wrong.

This sport is counter-intuitive. As you approach the higher end of speed, everything you’re taugh as a driver changes, or at least your instincts about going faster changes. Unless you’re taught the basics and taught the right way its hard to get better as a driver.

At my first ever track event 2 decades ago, I was the “hot shoe” going around chasing down all the other noobs, riding their tail, passing people left and right. After my 5th session of the day I proudly ask my in-car coach how I was doing, and he nonchalantly listed about 2 dozen mistakes that are holding me back as a driver. “(Hack) you’re going into the turns too fast, causing you to understeer into multiple turns and unnecessarily scrubbing speed and tires. You’re not looking far enough ahead thus not getting on throttle early. You’re ham-fisting the car and not letting it do it’s thing and slowing down unnecessarily in corner entry but blowing your exit by being too aggressive with the throttle...” List goes on, and on.

Being the god’s gift to drivers I demand he demonstrate what I was doing wrong, so we went out for a handful of laps in his (at the time) 15 year old car.

It blew me away. Initially not in a good way, because it felt SLOW the way he was driving. Where’s the @ss presses in the seat sensation? Where’s the sore collar bone from the seatbelt digging in your shoulder? None of that.

Until I looked at his speedometer. He was EASILY 8-10mph faster than I was at the end of every straight. In an old hoopty. Making at least 40 less HP.

“It’s got to be the tires, right?!” Nope. He had all seasons vs my extreme summer BStones.

All this isn’t to say I was a sh*tty driver. I was probably the fastest in my beginner’s group. And he did add, at the end of the list of my mistakes, suggest that the biggest positive as a asset for a beginner I have, was that I had little fear of speed, and that I was open minded and willing to learn.

We worked hard for the next 2 sessions (yes that DE I attended had 7 run sessions for the group in a single day. And I drove them all) to a point where I was able to enter the turn leading on to the front straight without the front tires groaning like they just ate a bad burrito, and shockingly I picked up about 4-5 mph on the front straight (according to him, I was too overwhelmed to keep an eye on my speedometer consistently, and this was all before Harry’s Lap Timer).

Why am I saying all this?

I had ZERO idea that I was doing things all wrong. Comparatively I was FAST. But zero clue that I was actually destroying my tires, making a ton of mistakes, and just generally being a NOOB. I mean, I probably could have done like half a dozen more events solo, and be happy thinking I was hot sh*t, but complaining about needing to replace my BStones every other weekend. Instead I had my eyes opened by a cool dude who volunteered to sit in my car for all 7 sessions that really helped me develope as a driver.

In reality. Yes I can probably drive on a set of MPSS super hard and experience chunking and separation of the tread compound near the sidewall. The MPSS aren’t designed to withstand exceeding the optimum slip angle excessively, but you HAVE to drive at a high slip angle to go fast. In that regard? MPSS isn’t the ideal tire to use consistently if you track every other weekend, because you WILL destroy them in a handful of days.

But if you manage them, like you should manage ANY tire, they can last you a year on track if you’re doing half a dozen days a year.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I beg to disagree. If one were to drive in a way to manage the wear of the PSS, one would be seriously slow around a track. The dual compound design of the PSS simply does not work for sustained dry track use.

Well yeah. Of course you beg to differ, because you haven’t actually figured out how to properly manage tire slip (or at least I assume you haven’t) to sustain operation of a non-optimal tire for the environment like the MPSS.*

A buddy and I went to Mazda, er, Laguna, um, WEATHER TECH 2 years back. He had MPSS on his 340i and I had Maxxis RC-1s on my Z4 M Coupe. It wasn’t a super hot day (I don’t think Monterey EVER gets hot?), but both of us were working it for what it’s worth.

At the end of the day I was only 2 seconds a lap faster than him. I chalk it up to either traffic, 2 year old r-comps, the massive torque advantage of the 340i, or the fact that he’s just a damn good driver. But his MPSSes never even remotely resembled what the OP posted. In fact the only sign that they were used on track are the usual clags that built up along the tread surface and the tell-tale blue tinge where the tread meets the sidewall.

*I’m not saying you don’t know how to drive. In fact I’ve been on the various BMW forums long enough to know that you’re exceedingly qualified and are one of the more experienced and FAST drivers. I just think sometimes we forget that tire management is also a skill set to go fast and when you’ve spent so much of your track time mastering how to go fast on sticky tires, some of us forget how to go fast on not so sticky tires.

So, another funny anecdote (at least I think it’s funny). My buddy and I go to the same events all the time, and occasionally, when we can, we give each other rides and constructively critique our drivings. Because no matter how good WE think we are, having another set of eyes from the passenger seat really helps. Anyway, I was riding with him at one of our favorite tracks, when I noticed his corner entry speeds were lower than I expected. I pointed it out to him, and he looked at me crossed eyed (or at least threw me a dirty look, if we were wearing open faced helmets that I can see). So next lap around, I told him to release the brakes earlier and get on the throttle...And sure enough, the car got massive sideways, nearly tank slapped our asses into the next zip code.

Turns out I get so used to having more mechanical grip through turns that I was trying to drive his car from the passenger seat like I was driving MINE. And it wasn’t pretty. I kept my mouth shut for the remainder of the session and enjoyed the ride. But he never lets me forget about it.

I think that’s the rut we all fall under sometimes. You drive a “street” tire expecting it to match the performance of a decent r-comp? You’re always going to end up disappointed or ruining a set rather quickly. But manage them right? They’re not nearly as slow as you think (2 seconds a lap is the difference between RC-1 and a set of Hoosier R7s, I was told by a team that has ran both.)

[MaynardZed]

LOL at being able to diagnose the OP's and other's driving techniques and abilities from one still picture or post.

LOL even more that the OP was somehow scrub braking / coming in so hot on his very first track day ever. You can get chunking like that easily on PSS with an M4 just from understeer which is more likely what the OP was doing.

Some folks on here do live up to their screen names.

[CRRobert]

quick question, under the same circumstances, whatever the reason, do we think that a MPS4S would fair any better?

[The HACK]

I think 15 years of instructing with a variety of track organizations, including BMW CCA, qualifies me to make such assessment.

I’ve seen enough of this type of wear on a variety of street tires to know exactly what happened. My experience and expertise working in the tire industry (albeit in marketing) means I am far more qualified then your average forum keyboard warrior to assess, as you said, “from a single picture.”

Eventhough it doesn’t take an expert to be able to tell that this is the result of overdriving the tire by an inexperienced driver, I am confident to say that MY opinion on the matter is about as close to a qualified expert opinion as you’re going to get on an Internet forum as one is likely to find.

What is YOUR qualification, pray tell?

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I think 15 years of instructing with a variety of track organizations, including BMW CCA, qualifies me to make such assessment.

I’ve seen enough of this type of wear on a variety of street tires to know exactly what happened. My experience and expertise working in the tire industry (albeit in marketing) means I am far more qualified then your average forum keyboard warrior to assess, as you said, “from a single picture.”

Eventhough it doesn’t take an expert to be able to tell that this is the result of overdriving the tire by an inexperienced driver, I am confident to say that MY opinion on the matter is about as close to a qualified expert opinion as you’re going to get on an Internet forum as one is likely to find.

What is YOUR qualification, pray tell?

I don’t have a complex, so there’s no need for me to boast about my racing experiences.

Nevertheless, I’m glad you feel you’re well qualified, but there’s been many threads in this section over the last 5 years about how inadequate the stock PSS are for track use on the F8X platform. From novice to advanced, the tires just don’t last long on a dry track.

If you’re able to hustle your PSS equipped M4 around the track without destroying them, more power to you. Maybe you can post some videos with some tips for the rest of us?

[mindspin311]

[kevinmkirn]

Thanks again for everyone's input on this. I will quickly admit that my lack of experience was a big contributor to the tire wear; another guy was in the same group driving a significantly modded 440, running almost as fast, and at the end of the day his MPSS's weren't nearly as worn as mine! I'm looking forward to getting good coaching to help me optimize my feel for the track and not just rely on the brute force of the M3.
One other question: I believe my M3 (with competition package) currently has 20 inch wheels. It sounds like I should go to an 18 inch staggered set for my track set? And can I change out to Ferodo or Pagid brake pads and leave them on for daily driving?

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by The HACK

They cord and chunk easily when you over-drive them, just like ANY street tires.

There are no such thing as street or track tires. You can drive any street tires on track. The ONLY difference is each tire’s ability to manage heat. If you dive bomb each corner exceeding the slip angles intended for the tire’s operation, turn after turn, lap after lap, no amount of “track” tires are going to survive excess slip angle for long.

Now, if you want to say that the Michelin Pilot Super Sports are not designed to operate above, say, 6-8 degrees of slip angle constantly? Yes I whole-heartedly agree. R-comps and slicks are required to handle 8-12 degrees of slip angle on tires consistently. But at that point you’re no longer learning to drive fast on track but relying on the tire’s ability to grip at the excess end of slip to get around corners. Someone who can consistently manage slip angle at the MPSS’s optimum slip is going to be FASTER around a typical track than someone who requires slick like slip angles if you ask me.

Based on OP’s posted picture, I can only come to the conclusion that the issue is NOT the tire, but how that tire is operated.

I've been too ADD to read all your posts in here, but the few I have read seem to mirror my thoughts as well (not sure I find anything that I would disagree with either). Tires chunk when they're being abused and the OP's is no different. I get frustrated seeing all the threads posted on here about destroyed MPSS's like it's some badge of honor or something. It's just wasting money for no reason IMO..

Again, these Michelins can (in my experience as well) produce solid lap times as long as they're driven at 6-7/10ths and on the left-side of the curve so to speak. They won't chunk if modulated, but they will wear faster than those tires more specifically designed to deal with track-duty. +-2 second delta give or take.

I'm a bit surprised the other guys in this thread were so vocal against your posts as they seem quite experienced and knowledgeable as well.

Originally Posted by CRRobert

quick question, under the same circumstances, whatever the reason, do we think that a MPS4S would fair any better?

No personal experience (with both types) but a friend drove exclusively with MPSS and then P4S (C7 Z51) and they seemed to wear somewhat similar to each-other. If you want something with better wear you might want to try the new bridgestone or Hankook tires.

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Thanks again for everyone's input on this. I will quickly admit that my lack of experience was a big contributor to the tire wear; another guy was in the same group driving a significantly modded 440, running almost as fast, and at the end of the day his MPSS's weren't nearly as worn as mine! I'm looking forward to getting good coaching to help me optimize my feel for the track and not just rely on the brute force of the M3.
One other question: I believe my M3 (with competition package) currently has 20 inch wheels. It sounds like I should go to an 18 inch staggered set for my track set? And can I change out to Ferodo or Pagid brake pads and leave them on for daily driving?

It takes time to get used to these cars and being honest about where you are as a driver now is key to becoming a better/more consistent track-junkie in the future.

If you're serious about doing HPDEs then I would suggest going straight to an 18" wheel setup. Alternatively you could consider OEM 19" wheels but you'll be limited on the tire width in the future. As far as brakes, skip the Pagids and go straight to Ferodo line-up. Lastly, consider camber plates and/or coilovers for a multitude of reasons.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CRRobert

quick question, under the same circumstances, whatever the reason, do we think that a MPS4S would fair any better?

Hi, my initial impression of those tires is the outer shoulder is tougher than MPSS but I would personally still use them for rain and stick with the usual track days tires instead

I did some fun runs on those tires in my EV and they were still wearing out somewhat fast and getting greasy.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dth656

what would be the appropriate driver mod in this case? Braking more, slowing the car down more, then maintenance throttle until apex? and then add more throttle as you unwind the steering? is it possible to add more throttle prior to the apex?

I think others already mentioned to you managing the tires' heat (e.g. Backing off the pace when they get hot). That's what I meant in my original post, anyway.

My $0.02 on your other question similar to CanAut, In terms of using a trailing brake going into the apex then rolling on the throttle as much as you can, as soon as you can.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CRRobert

quick question, under the same circumstances, whatever the reason, do we think that a MPS4S would fair any better?

I can't compare to MPSS, but I ran for 77 laps at Willow Springs on MPS4S with no chunking. 7 or 8 sessions, 20-30 minutes each. It was 60-65 degrees all day, tires were at 28 psi cold, running between 34-36 hot if I recall correctly. No cording, no chunking. Granted, I was not overdriving the tires. I agree with the theory that the OP was probably too hot in almost every single corner. That kind of damage is excessive, it looks absolutely toasted.

[adc]

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Thanks for the great feedback everyone.
As mentioned earlier, I don't have any ability to do any of this work myself and I live in a condo so it will be tough to find a place to store a second set of tires. I only drive about 6,000 miles per year as my commute here in South Florida is quite short. Do I need to have the camber adjusted before each track day and then reset after the track day to its original setting or can I leave it in the track setting for my daily driving? Where can I get that kind of work done as I assume the BMW dealership wouldn't be the best place to do that. Also, I hadn't heard that PSS's weren't acceptable for novice track duty.
Thanks again.

Once you find a nice reputable race shop to do your camber plates and alignment, ask them nicely if they could store your track set for a nominal fee.

And get the tires, wheels and TPMS shipped directly to the shop for mounting and balancing.

[erictrainer]

Hey kevinmkirn just curious what times were you running PBIR?

[FormulaMMM]

As CanAutM3 has rightly pointed out a few times in this thread, it's the sustained dry track use that dooms PSS and the newer PS4S.

I've run either or both tires on track with R8, M3, M4, and the new M5. Regardless of the platform, they are 2-3 laps "on," 1 lap "off" tires. They need a recovery period. Push through the (very obvious) point of overheating and they'll fail.

Some track days and tracks are conducive to this session approach, others not so much. And some drivers prefer this approach to a session -- I still do from time to time, especially in the later sessions. A cool down lap to reset both driver and car. If you're learning with an instructor, it's a good chance for discussion.

So these aren't dedicated track tires by any means, but I'd hate for novices, or drivers who prefer a more relaxed approach to track days to dismiss them. They're excellent on track, excellent tires to learn with, perfect for wet track days. You just have to be aware and drive within their thermal limitations.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Well yeah. Of course you beg to differ, because you haven’t actually figured out how to properly manage tire slip (or at least I assume you haven’t) to sustain operation of a non-optimal tire for the environment like the MPSS.*

A buddy and I went to Mazda, er, Laguna, um, WEATHER TECH 2 years back. He had MPSS on his 340i and I had Maxxis RC-1s on my Z4 M Coupe. It wasn’t a super hot day (I don’t think Monterey EVER gets hot?), but both of us were working it for what it’s worth.

At the end of the day I was only 2 seconds a lap faster than him. I chalk it up to either traffic, 2 year old r-comps, the massive torque advantage of the 340i, or the fact that he’s just a damn good driver. But his MPSSes never even remotely resembled what the OP posted. In fact the only sign that they were used on track are the usual clags that built up along the tread surface and the tell-tale blue tinge where the tread meets the sidewall.

*I’m not saying you don’t know how to drive. In fact I’ve been on the various BMW forums long enough to know that you’re exceedingly qualified and are one of the more experienced and FAST drivers. I just think sometimes we forget that tire management is also a skill set to go fast and when you’ve spent so much of your track time mastering how to go fast on sticky tires, some of us forget how to go fast on not so sticky tires.

So, another funny anecdote (at least I think it’s funny). My buddy and I go to the same events all the time, and occasionally, when we can, we give each other rides and constructively critique our drivings. Because no matter how good WE think we are, having another set of eyes from the passenger seat really helps. Anyway, I was riding with him at one of our favorite tracks, when I noticed his corner entry speeds were lower than I expected. I pointed it out to him, and he looked at me crossed eyed (or at least threw me a dirty look, if we were wearing open faced helmets that I can see). So next lap around, I told him to release the brakes earlier and get on the throttle...And sure enough, the car got massive sideways, nearly tank slapped our asses into the next zip code.

Turns out I get so used to having more mechanical grip through turns that I was trying to drive his car from the passenger seat like I was driving MINE. And it wasn’t pretty. I kept my mouth shut for the remainder of the session and enjoyed the ride. But he never lets me forget about it.

I think that’s the rut we all fall under sometimes. You drive a “street” tire expecting it to match the performance of a decent r-comp? You’re always going to end up disappointed or ruining a set rather quickly. But manage them right? They’re not nearly as slow as you think (2 seconds a lap is the difference between RC-1 and a set of Hoosier R7s, I was told by a team that has ran both.)

I agree with a lot you are saying here. I also don't dispute the fact that the OP's track driving inexperience might have exacerbated the problem with his tire wear. But I stand by my point that the PSS is inadequate for sustained dry track use.

First, to clarify my interpretation of some terminology to ensure my point is clear. I consider that "overdriving" is when pushing beyond the equipment capabilities which results in slower lap times. "Underdriving" is the opposite where the full performance potential of the equipment is not being exploited due to not pushing hard enough. Most beginners and intermediate drivers actually do a combination of over and under-driving, but the majority of beginners underdrive way more than they overdrive. As experience increases, drivers will progressively narrow their window of over and under-driving to get closer to that ultimate ideal "limit" of driving. There are in fact very few drivers that are able to actually drive constantly on that knife edge limit, and I certainly do not consider myself one of them (otherwise I would be driving for a living ).

That being said, the PSS does not need to be overdriven to melt and chunk away. It can be driven at 10/10th for a lap or two without over-wearing, however, as soon as it starts to build up heat, it starts to destroy itself on the softer outer portion of the tread, hence the precision I made about it being unsuitable for SUSTAINED dry track use. Sure, one can underdrive the PSS at 7/10th to prevent it from building up too much heat over an entire session and avoid excessive wear, but one is not getting the fastest times out of the tire by doing so; and where's the fun in that . As long as the car is pointing in the right direction at the apex, there is no way I will be faster around a corner by being slower at the apex from having braked more going in, it's simple physics dynamics.

I love the PSS as a street tire and wet track tire, but there are many other street tires that do not suffer the same fate as the PSS with sustained 10/10th track driving.

[kevinmkirn]

Welp, I think it's obvious by now that I need to learn to drive a little more smoothly! I took the car in to the local BMW dealer to get a couple of body squeaks looked at and also some significant growling from the brakes following my first track day. They just called and told me that they are replacing the pads and rotors all around. The car only has 3,000 miles on it. The service rep said that "they look like they had quite a bit of action on them" but BMW agreed to replace them so that's what they're doing.
Local upgrade shop is recommending Pagids over Ferodo but I'm not going to change them out each time so this board seems to prefer Ferodo since they are more quiet and perform better on the track. Also looking at Apex EC-7 18 inch track wheels with a stud conversion kit. Shop is suggesting Bridgestone RE71R or Toyo Proxes RA-1.
Finally, shop is recommending Adjustable Lower Control Arms vs. Ground Control camber plates.
Any opinions on this set up? Will probably track 4-6 times per year here in South Florida.
Thanks again everyone.