S55 vs. S65

[A418t81]

The S55 will be very overbuilt. It was designed from the ground up to be turbocharged and should not be compared to the S65 which has been proven to be a weak motor relatively speaking. The E46 M3 engine was stronger than the S65 even. The N54 already supports 700+ whp without issue on the stock components and I can assure you that the internals of the S55 are stronger.

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

Who would choose an F8x M3/M4 with an S65 (~ 440PS / 435Nm) over an F8x M3/M4 with the standart S55 (431PS / 550Nm) if this engine swap was possible by BMW Individual for ~ 7.500 - 10.000€ (including the M-DCT of the E9x M3!).

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by A418t81

the S65 which has been proven to be a weak motor relatively speaking.

Rubbish. Provide your "claim" and evidence to the guys pushing 700+ crank hp with supercharged E92s and running them hard. Heck even the stock DCT transmission is taking this kind of extreme power and torque

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

What do you even know about S65? Do you own a car with one?

Well consider you keep using that as reference, you should stop making unsubstantiated comments about what the S55 can handle since, according to you, you can only make an informed opinion if you own a car with the engine.

And since you don't own a car with an S55, stop talking.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

What do you even know about S65? Do you own a car with one?

No, I choose to own cars with engines that make enough power that I find them amusing. 420 crank hp at eye-watering RPM and <300 ft/lbs doesn't cut it for me. I like torque, and turbos, which has been the only part the M3 has been missing for me until now (and why I have chosen to keep a modded 335 for my street daily driver).

Swamp, the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced, and the N54 as well. The S54 and N54 have been proven to make 700+ whp reliably. A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb. Yes, I see them...but I also see them blow up. A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull. There has yet to be a single engine failure with a a single turbo powered N54 over 600 whp and obviously the E46 M3s are well documented in their power-making abilities.

You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words. An inline 6 architecture with an overbuilt engine and drivetrain is the perfect platform for making as much power as you want. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can use it for crow-eating purposes down the road

[biglare]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Rubbish. Provide your "claim" and evidence to the guys pushing 700+ crank hp with supercharged E92s and running them hard. Heck even the stock DCT transmission is taking this kind of extreme power and torque

+1

[biglare]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

These 335 guys never get old...

Exactly.........

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by A418t81

the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced, and the N54 as well. The S54 and N54 have been proven to make 700+ whp reliably. A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb. Yes, I see them...but I also see them blow up. A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull. There has yet to be a single engine failure with a a single turbo powered N54 over 600 whp and obviously the E46 M3s are well documented in their power-making abilities.

Again rubbish.

There are many folks running 600-700 hp E9X M3s. The only weak links uncovered thus far are a very low percentage of cars with rod bearing problems (perhaps translating to a rod problem). These failures have been seen in FI cars but also in completely stock cars with <20k miles. And I guess if you call a clutch designed for 400 hp a "weak link" when running 700 hp then yes that is another weak link. I've read first hand account of 100s of drag strip runs in S65s at this power level. Nothing but rock solid reliability.

Read this particular thread about a high mileage long lasting nearly 800 hp E92 M3. Link.

Although I haven't followed the S54/N54/N55 tuning scene very carefully, I've heard plenty about various problems in these motors even without significantly more power than stock. The S54 also suffered from a bearing problem. That one though was admitted by BMW (the E9X one has not been). What about the fuel pump in the N54? What about the plethora of cooling issue and limp mode problems when N54/N55 are run hard at the track? No such stories for the S65.

Although I cannot definitively and objectively with NUMBERS prove that the S65 is more reliable when running significantly more power than stock than the S54/N54/N55, similarly you can't prove the S65 offers terrible reliability. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

I am especially incredulous regarding the bold part above. How many dumbasses out there go for nothing but power and sacrifice all costs needed to improve reliability (most often cooling). When this approach is taken it is asking for failure with any motor. Just becuase you haven't been able to find such a case certainly does not mean one does not exist.

Originally Posted by A418t81

You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words. An inline 6 architecture with an overbuilt engine and drivetrain is the perfect platform for making as much power as you want. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can use it for crow-eating purposes down the road

Bookmark away. My statements have ZERO to due with what car I own. My car is producing minimally more power than stock.

If the S55 can be tuned to close to 800 crank hp then yes it will trounce existing modded M3s. It's only about power...

By the way there are 3 M3s faster in 60-130 than the fastest 335i...

List M3, list 335i

[Savory]

How did this become a S65 vs N54 thread?! I feel like we're on E90 post lol! We all know what the S65 and N54 can do on their respectable platforms, and they both can put out outrageous numbers. I think the M3/M4 are the wrong cars to expect these numbers from.

[ixse]

its all the e9x fanboys that try so hard to defend their joy and pride.. i understand.. just give it some time.. it will sink in.. lol

[RingMeister01]

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Gimme some

Cheers
Robin

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ixse

its all the e9x fanboys that try so hard to defend their joy and pride.. i understand.. just give it some time.. it will sink in.. lol

Seems to me this particular part of the discussion actually started with a 335 fan falsely criticizing the durability of the S65 under high power modification. I've never had a shred of doubt about the new M3/4 drastically eclipsing the current M3, that's what happens when you combine an entire generation of changes with less weight and more power. Anyway, I'm certainly a big s65 and E9x fan but sorry fanboy I aint.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Swamp, the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced, and the N54 as well. The S54 and N54 have been proven to make 700+ whp reliably. A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb. Yes, I see them...but I also see them blow up. A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull. There has yet to be a single engine failure with a a single turbo powered N54 over 600 whp and obviously the E46 M3s are well documented in their power-making abilities.

Oh my god ... what a BS !!!

Do you really mean, that you are properly informed about BMW engines !?

Its really common sence, that the only two engines with known greater issues were the two 54er, the BMW AG N54 and the M-GmbH S54 ... especially the S65 engine has no really known issues.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, I choose to own cars with engines that make enough power that I find them amusing. 420 crank hp at eye-watering RPM and <300 ft/lbs doesn't cut it for me. I like torque, and turbos, which has been the only part the M3 has been missing for me until now (and why I have chosen to keep a modded 335 for my street daily driver).

Swamp, the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced, and the N54 as well. The S54 and N54 have been proven to make 700+ whp reliably. A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb. Yes, I see them...but I also see them blow up. A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull. There has yet to be a single engine failure with a a single turbo powered N54 over 600 whp and obviously the E46 M3s are well documented in their power-making abilities.

You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words. An inline 6 architecture with an overbuilt engine and drivetrain is the perfect platform for making as much power as you want. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can use it for crow-eating purposes down the road

couple things i wanna touch here with you.

first of all. there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ? go drive one and get back into your modded 335i with a I6 engine. you will find the car lacks in sound and special feel. i think you shouldn't just brush off the S65 like you do. there is still something special there. as a guy who loves the S65, i can still respect modded M4s and 335is for the power. and you should respect the S65 for the sound and high revving nature. both are "cool" in there own way.

honestly have you been around a lot of cars ? like at meets and stuff? do you find your 335i to be a really good sounding motor ? (honest question)

to me if i was going to mod. i would go grab a corvette. make more power cheaper. not to mention the sound.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Ezio

couple things i wanna touch here with you.

first of all. there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ? go drive one and get back into your modded 335i with a I6 engine. you will find the car lacks in sound and special feel. i think you shouldn't just brush off the S65 like you do. there is still something special there. as a guy who loves the S65, i can still respect modded M4s and 335is for the power. and you should respect the S65 for the sound and high revving nature. both are "cool" in there own way.

honestly have you been around a lot of cars ? like at meets and stuff? do you find your 335i to be a really good sounding motor ? (honest question)

to me if i was going to mod. i would go grab a corvette. make more power cheaper. not to mention the sound.

I agree on the different characters and pros and cons of turbo vs NA.

But I would NEVER choose a Corvette for the sound... Big lazy V8 sounding soundtrack does NOTHING for me on a modern performance car. A Ferrari V8, yes. F10 M5 with cross plane exhaust, yes. Corvette, no. I would choose a F8x with the S55 or a Nissan GT-R anyday over a "good old" V8 if I should make my choice based on sound characteristics

And, yes I think a car like the M135i with the performance exhaust sounds awesome Not as good on high rpm's as a E46 M3 though

Do you really think it's fair to compare the feel of a Ferrari with a 335i??? That's just as unfair as comparing a M5 with a Ferrari F12 or Aston Martin Vanquish, or a M3 with a 458 or Aston Vantage...

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

you will find the car lacks in sound and special feel.

Because those aren't subjective at all.

Look, the S65 sounds great. The N54/55 sounds pretty good too (especially with the PE). They're two different exhaust notes.

The S65 isn't the best sounding engine in existence. It's up there though.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I agree on the different characters and pros and cons of turbo vs NA.

But I would NEVER choose a Corvette for the sound... Big lazy V8 sounding soundtrack does NOTHING for me on a modern performance car. A Ferrari V8, yes. F10 M5 with cross plane exhaust, yes. Corvette, no. I would choose a F8x with the S55 or a Nissan GT-R anyday over a "good old" V8 if I should make my choice based on sound characteristics

And, yes I think a car like the M135i with the performance exhaust sounds awesome Not as good on high rpm's as a E46 M3 though

Do you really think it's fair to compare the feel of a Ferrari with a 335i??? That's just as unfair as comparing a M5 with a Ferrari F12 or Aston Martin Vanquish, or a M3 with a 458 or Aston Vantage...

i think you are very educated with cars. and do respect your view points.

but you live in Europe and maybe grew up there also. i live in and grew up in the US. we are going to have different views on what sounds good. Americans because we are more exposed to different types of cars tend to lhave different views on engines. i know in Europe its hard to get some imported cars like mustangs and corvettes. to me i love the V8 growl. its loud and mean sounding. where a (I6)V6 is ricey and soft sounding.

of course not everyone sees this view. but just wanted to make this point as i feel me and you will ever see eye to eye on exhaust sound. for that reason.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i think you are very educated with cars. and do respect your view points.

but you live in Europe and maybe grew up there also. i live in and grew up in the US. we are going to have different views on what sounds good. Americans because we are more exposed to different types of cars tend to lhave different views on engines. i know in Europe its hard to get some imported cars like mustangs and corvettes. to me i love the V8 growl. its loud and mean sounding. where a (I6)V6 is ricey and soft sounding.

of course not everyone sees this view. but just wanted to make this point as i feel me and you will ever see eye to eye on exhaust sound. for that reason.

Exactly my point as well. But you made comments that seemed like everyone agreed that a V8 sounded better than a I6/V6. When in reality it's a subjective matter and depends on personal taste, cultural preferences and many other variables. Just like peoples taste in music...

Just like a 6 cyl sounds "ricey and soft" to you, so does a V8 to me, reminding me to much of a Chevy Van or a Suburban or a '80ies Trans Am... Not "mean" at all, just a lot of noise and no action

It was not a malicious comment from my side, just trying to voice that some actually prefer a different soundtrack

[Penguino]

Can we go back to the S65 for a moment and go over the tuning potential of this engine? You get 40whp-50whp FBO, that's it. There is nothing else you can do and you are lucky to break 400whp. Now, you can add a $10k SC kit and be around 500-550whp that's for sure.

[Thurman Murch]

I own both a tuned S65 and tuned N55...

The S65 is prone to conrod problems... Even Gintani pointed this out
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=361456
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635377

Some limiting factors of the S55/F8X:
Increased Cd over E9XM (solvable)
Reduced air intake volume (solvable)
Lack of proper FMIC

Some positives:
Forged crankshaft
Closed crankcase
Direct intercooling/shorter path (water cooler congests air flow?)
Not that complex-easy to fit bigger turbos
Better turbo bearings and cooling

I think it shouldn't be a problem to increase boost and timing and CR... to what degree remains to be seen

I think it's easier to track the S65 because of the throttle dynamics - it's easier to modulate power... The N54T cars didn't have the right brakes and downforce to contain the power

The one thing I notice is the N55 has more power on top than top then bottom...but in comparing to my old N54T and S63 and merging all my thoughts... I think the F8X will fly up to 130mph not sure if it has the up top lungs of the S65 though but could be fixed with more air but this could be a taper of boost for the 155 limiter

Is there a way to modify the accelerator pedal to allow valvetronic to open faster?

[Robin_NL]

I love this thread. Especially when people start to compare Ferrari flatplane/drysump V8 engines to the crossplane non dry sump S65.





Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Come to think of it. How many carmanufacturers produce crossplane/flatplane V8 engines these days?

And how many produce straight six engines?

Rhetorical question. Nothing to do with tuning, just saying.

Cheers
Robin