BMW Value

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by Patronus86

Says the person who owns a 997 gt3 rs, at least if your garage list is accurate.

You definitely seem to put porsche on a pedestal, hence why you exaggerated your car's resale value and tried to claim a simple fuel cell swap and transmission upgrade was the only difference between your beloved 997 gt3 rs and the pro cup version...



The retail M3 has just as much "racing DNA" from its pro circuit cousin as the 997 gt3 rs has from its cup car cousin. That's why people track the M3. And though the cup car may have a similar motor and chassis to that
of the 997 gt3 rs, there is still a $100K price difference (components, tuning, setup, ect.) between the two cars, which you have refused to acknowledge.

Actually quite a few on this thread have agreed that the M3 is one of the best do-it-all cars (tracking, daily driver) you can buy for that price tag.




You're right...I misspoke. However, I predict in the long run the gt500 and its chevy and dodge counterparts will hold their value if not increase in value due to their engine types and performance-oriented setup's. A lot like how some of the older generation gt350's and chevy camaro's are easily going for $100k+ at car auctions.

I'm not exaggerating. Go to autotrader or rennlist. Prices are nuts. It's a pleasant surprise really. As for the accuracy of my list. Here are some pics. I'll throw in my old GTR, Evo and my fish tank in the mix as well

[ridin135]

Nice garage that rs is gorgeous. I 100% agree about the gt500 maintaining its value that why I pointed out that even though it's not a limited edition it still demands a high resale value. I just think this thread is funny when you say that bmws are bang for buck hp cars as long as you don't include all these other Japanese and American cars, kind of defeats the purpose. The M is an amazing car but when you compare hp to dollar which what was the original argument it's not even on the list. Mercedes beats bmw in hp per dollar if you look just in the German market as well.

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4awd

I'm not exaggerating. Go to autotrader or rennlist. Prices are nuts. It's a pleasant surprise really.

Kelley's Blue Book tells a different tale. Depending on the options/packages, it says anywhere from $130k-$160k for a 2011 3.8 L version.


Like S.hasan546 said...

Originally Posted by S.hasan546

a 997.2 3.8 RS is worth closer to 140k-160k. Not $200k+. People can ask w.e price they want, but what it is worth is totally different.

It seems like some dealers are raising their asking price because they know they can get away with it.

Originally Posted by s4awd

As for the accuracy of my list. Here are some pics. I'll throw in my old GTR, Evo and my fish tank in the mix as well

Well, I honestly wasn't questioning you integrity on that. You have a garage big enough for all of those?

[Sedan_Clan]

I want that GT3 so bad.

[darkalley]

Patronus88 I really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be rude but have you ever bought or sold an exotic?? Kelly Blue Book? That's where you find you pricing? S4AWD is 100% correct as there is a shortage of low mileage GT3's (RS and non RS) and Porsche collectors are going crazy trying to buy them. In an earlier post I said prices were up 15% for a low mileage car in 2013 and that was being conservative. Look at Rennlist to see what people are asking (and getting for their cars). The GT3 is one of (if not the fastest) rising used cars on the market. You constantly bash 911 owners but make statements like "dealers seem to be raising their asking price because they can get away with it"?! Seriously you understand that that is called "market pricing". Dealers are raising their prices because that's the market. It's also funny how you called S4awd out for the cars he had listed then when he backed it up you answer "I wasn't questioning your integrity". I asked you earlier what 911's you have driven and you never answered so I can only assume you are basing your knowledge on Kelly Blue Book or Autoweek. The Porsche guys are not nuts or douche bags looking to pounce- we like talking about cars just as much as the next guy (and I think my S2000 is better than my 911!) but if you are going to post something like "if your garage is accurate" and then when shown to be correct you need to apologize for calling the guy a liar. Car forums are where people share expertise and opinion. Expertise requires more than an autoweek subscription!

[Robin_NL]

@ darkalley : well spoken.

@ s4awd: Nice cars and crib
But I only live a few hours from the Ring and you don't

Anyway, to compare a GT3 to an M3 (even a GTS) is a bit weird.

Both great cars but a 911 (with all its flaws) is just more sportscar to begin with than 'an M3'.

I testdrove a 997 Mk1 S for a day and decided to get the E90 M3 (kids and stuff) about 5 years ago. But man. Even a 997S with 60HP less than a E90 M3 is something special(apart from the initial understeer any Elfer suffers from and from which I in a way never get used to completely)

Cheers
Robin

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by darkalley

...Car forums are where people share expertise and opinion. Expertise requires more than an autoweek subscription!

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

@ s4awd: Nice cars and crib
But I only live a few hours from the Ring and you don't

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Patronus88 I really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be rude but have you ever bought or sold an exotic?? Kelly Blue Book? That's where you find you pricing? S4AWD is 100% correct as there is a shortage of low mileage GT3's (RS and non RS) and Porsche collectors are going crazy trying to buy them. In an earlier post I said prices were up 15% for a low mileage car in 2013 and that was being conservative. Look at Rennlist to see what people are asking (and getting for their cars). The GT3 is one of (if not the fastest) rising used cars on the market.

Kelly Blue Book gives you a good baseline to start from, not the most accurate but its a start. The actual Kelly Blue Book value was around $129K for a used gt3 rs, but I factored in model rarity and and looked at other car sites to figure what the car is reasonably worth now. As for the gt3 rs and non rs being highly sought after on the used market, it absolutely is.

But here is the issue I have with the prices on Rennlist: The MSRP for a brand new gt3 rs was about $140k. And now, with the car only a few years old, the dealers are asking for $200k+? Are you kidding me? No other used cars gain value that quickly and that early on...especially when you consider that porsche will likely make even better performing, higher quality 911's in the near future. It's a bidder's market out there, and when the primary buyers of these cars have all the money in the world, the dealers/sellers can jack up the price as much as they want... =>Car is way over priced now.

Originally Posted by darkalley

You constantly bash 911 owners but make statements like "dealers seem to be raising their asking price because they can get away with it"?! Seriously you understand that that is called "market pricing". Dealers are raising their prices because that's the market.

Not bashing 911 owners, just disputing the claims that a specific one has made. Yes the dealers can and are getting away with raising the prices. Just because $200k is the average market price for the gt3 rs, doesn't mean its a fair value. That's why you hear assets, products, commodities sometimes being referred to as over valued.

All the wealthy car buyers want to get this gt3 rs because, beside it being an awesome car, they are worried it's a limited edition that will never be produced again => they view it as a collector's item. Dealers are taking advantage of that demand and thus ramp up the prices.

The thing is, this car is only a few years old...and the true rarity of this can't and shouldn't be fully appreciated until more time has passed and porsche has put out newer models. I guarantee that porsche will produce more limited edition, high-end models in the future...it's pretty much expected of them by their customers.

The GT350 didn't become a highly priced, collector's item over night...it took time before people were able to compare it to the other mustangs put out by Ford and decide on its relative value. This gt3 rs, by comparison, has sky-rocketed on the markets in almost no time whatsoever. Why? You can't possibly know how rare this thing is until newer porsches come out!! 3-4 years of newer models is not enough.

Also, please don't start berating me for comparing a gt350 for a gt3 rs. I know these cars are at totally different ends of the spectrum. The focus of that comparison is on the car valuation process, not on the actual cars.

Originally Posted by darkalley

It's also funny how you called S4awd out for the cars he had listed then when he backed it up you answer "I wasn't questioning your integrity".

I didn't think he was lying, I just didn't know if his garage list was up to date. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by darkalley

I asked you earlier what 911's you have driven and you never answered so I can only assume you are basing your knowledge on Kelly Blue Book or Autoweek.

Dude, if you read all of my posts, I have been very forthcoming about how I haven't driven any of these high-end cars. The only reason I refused to answer you earlier was because I knew you were looking to start an argument, like this one, that I didn't want to be a part of.

Originally Posted by darkalley

The Porsche guys are not nuts or douche bags looking to pounce- we like talking about cars just as much as the next guy (and I think my S2000 is better than my 911!) but if you are going to post something like "if your garage is accurate" and then when shown to be correct you need to apologize for calling the guy a liar.

I am not angry with all "porsche nuts" I am a little frustrated with all the people on this forum who have bashed me for comparing the 911 gt3 to the m3 (it just so happens that a few of those bashers were porsche nuts).

And to be perfectly honest, the real reason I called BS on S4AWD and questioned his integrity was because he tried to claim that the only difference between a gt3 rs and the cup car version was a simple fuel cell swap and an upgraded transmission. He was making false claims to try and prove a point, and I take serious issue with people putting out that kind of misinformation. And no, I'm not apologizing for that.

Enjoy the new year!

[Sy546]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Patronus88 I really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be rude but have you ever bought or sold an exotic?? Kelly Blue Book? That's where you find you pricing? S4AWD is 100% correct as there is a shortage of low mileage GT3's (RS and non RS) and Porsche collectors are going crazy trying to buy them. In an earlier post I said prices were up 15% for a low mileage car in 2013 and that was being conservative. Look at Rennlist to see what people are asking (and getting for their cars). The GT3 is one of (if not the fastest) rising used cars on the market. You constantly bash 911 owners but make statements like "dealers seem to be raising their asking price because they can get away with it"?! Seriously you understand that that is called "market pricing". Dealers are raising their prices because that's the market. It's also funny how you called S4awd out for the cars he had listed then when he backed it up you answer "I wasn't questioning your integrity". I asked you earlier what 911's you have driven and you never answered so I can only assume you are basing your knowledge on Kelly Blue Book or Autoweek. The Porsche guys are not nuts or douche bags looking to pounce- we like talking about cars just as much as the next guy (and I think my S2000 is better than my 911!) but if you are going to post something like "if your garage is accurate" and then when shown to be correct you need to apologize for calling the guy a liar. Car forums are where people share expertise and opinion. Expertise requires more than an autoweek subscription!

Please learn how to use paragraphs. Not trying to be a dick but damn that's annoying.

& I do know the exotic market decently well. Between me and my friends we have most of the exotics covered. I'm also a dealer.

Im not arguing. Im simply stating facts. a 997.2 gt3 rs isn't selling for $250k.
Stop looking at what fanboys on rennlist or 6speed ask.

Sorry but a private party will not get the same price a dealer can most of the time (not including the super rare cars like ford GTs & gt3 rs 4.0s).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...US_Cars_Trucks

^Reputable dealer. Low-ish miles.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...US_Cars_Trucks

Want one from a porsche dealer & only 2000 miles? sure here you go. $177k

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...rack-time.html

[darkalley]

[QUOTE=Patronus86;15197097]Kelly Blue Book gives you a good baseline to start from, not the most accurate but its a start. The actual Kelly Blue Book value was around $129K for a used gt3 rs, but I factored in model rarity and and looked at other car sites to figure what the car is reasonably worth now. As for the gt3 rs and non rs being highly sought after on the used market, it absolutely is.

But here is the issue I have with the prices on Rennlist: The MSRP for a brand new gt3 rs was about $140k. And now, with the car only a few years old, the dealers are asking for $200k+? Are you kidding me? No other used cars gain value that quickly and that early on...especially when you consider that porsche will likely make even better performing, higher quality 911's in the near future. It's a bidder's market out there, and when the primary buyers of these cars have all the money in the world, the dealers/sellers can jack up the price as much as they want... =>Car is way over priced now.



Not bashing 911 owners, just disputing the claims that a specific one has made. Yes the dealers can and are getting away with raising the prices. Just because $200k is the average market price for the gt3 rs, doesn't mean its a fair value. That's why you hear assets, products, commodities sometimes being referred to as over valued.

All the wealthy car buyers want to get this gt3 rs because, beside it being an awesome car, they are worried it's a limited edition that will never be produced again => they view it as a collector's item. Dealers are taking advantage of that demand and thus ramp up the prices.

The thing is, this car is only a few years old...and the true rarity of this can't and shouldn't be fully appreciated until more time has passed and porsche has put out newer models. I guarantee that porsche will produce more limited edition, high-end models in the future...it's pretty much expected of them by their customers.

The GT350 didn't become a highly priced, collector's item over night...it took time before people were able to compare it to the other mustangs put out by Ford and decide on its relative value. This gt3 rs, by comparison, has sky-rocketed on the markets in almost no time whatsoever. Why? You can't possibly know how rare this thing is until newer porsches come out!! 3-4 years of newer models is not enough.

Also, please don't start berating me for comparing a gt350 for a gt3 rs. I know these cars are at totally different ends of the spectrum. The focus of that comparison is on the car valuation process, not on the actual cars.



I didn't think he was lying, I just didn't know if his garage list was up to date. Simple as that.


Dude, if you read all of my posts, I have been very forthcoming about how I haven't driven any of these high-end cars. The only reason I refused to answer you earlier was because I knew you were looking to start an argument, like this one, that I didn't want to be a part of.



I am not angry with all "porsche nuts" I am a little frustrated with all the people on this forum who have bashed me for comparing the 911 gt3 to the m3 (it just so happens that a few of those bashers were porsche nuts).

And to be perfectly honest, the real reason I called BS on S4AWD and questioned his integrity was because he tried to claim that the only difference between a gt3 rs and the cup car version was a simple fuel cell swap and an upgraded transmission. He was making false claims to try and prove a point, and I take serious issue with people putting out that kind of misinformation. And no, I'm not apologizing for that.

Enjoy the new year! [/QUOTE

Umm this is crazy on so many levels

[s4awd]

[QUOTE=darkalley;15197393]

Originally Posted by Patronus86

.. the real reason I called BS on S4AWD and questioned his integrity was because he tried to claim that the only difference between a gt3 rs and the cup car version was a simple fuel cell swap and an upgraded transmission.[/B] He was making false claims to try and prove a point, and I take serious issue with people putting out that kind of misinformation. And no, I'm not apologizing for that.

Enjoy the new year! [/QUOTE

Umm this is crazy on so many levels

Here is a video review of both rs and cup. Main difference as I mentioned is the tranny. Tires as well but overall, same chassis, same motor. No one is going to buy an RS and race. They buy a Cup car. It is sold through different channels. Fuel systems, wheels, electrical systems, etc are all different but the base is THE SAME. The reviewer's last sentence says it all. You can call BS on this as well if you like And this isn't crazy on any level. Regardless of whose calling me a bullshit artist, We're talking cars!! I can't imagine doing anything better on New Years eve while stuck in the office. Happy New Year Everyone!!!!

[darkalley]

Originally Posted by S.hasan546

Please learn how to use paragraphs. Not trying to be a dick but damn that's annoying.

& I do know the exotic market decently well. Between me and my friends we have most of the exotics covered. I'm also a dealer.

Im not arguing. Im simply stating facts. a 997.2 gt3 rs isn't selling for $250k.
Stop looking at what fanboys on rennlist or 6speed ask.

Sorry but a private party will not get the same price a dealer can most of the time (not including the super rare cars like ford GTs & gt3 rs 4.0s).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...US_Cars_Trucks

^Reputable dealer. Low-ish miles.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...US_Cars_Trucks

Want one from a porsche dealer & only 2000 miles? sure here you go. $177k

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...rack-time.html

I have a Masters Degree in Communications and believe paragraphs are what liberal hipsters use so I prefer the ancient form of "clumping". I have no idea what your above post is about though.... You might have missed mine in my "clump". I did not say Rennlist was the bible but, although high, it is what wealthy collectors are willing to pay and asking for clean cars. You will also see GT3 owners on the site are asking like $130k-$150k for their cars (I have seen a few in the $130k range) I have no idea where the $250k number came from you mentioned.... I was essentially stating that the prices on GT3's have gone up 15% this year (it was a conservative number). As a dealer you would agree the GT3 is probably one of it not "the" fastest" rising values in the used car market right??? That was simply my point (and that Patrus has an issue with market pricing). The one owner GT3 is almost like a unicorn and for collectors those unmolested cars get a lot. You want to talk crazy? Since you are a dealer from NY I am sure you are familiar with Sloan but he asks (and gets) crazy money for his clean 911's. Check out this guy who does all consignments http://sloancars.com/

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by s4awd

I'm not exaggerating. Go to autotrader or rennlist. Prices are nuts. It's a pleasant surprise really. As for the accuracy of my list. Here are some pics. I'll throw in my old GTR, Evo and my fish tank in the mix as well

What size is your tank? What skimmer are you running? Looks pretty healthy. I'm still fighting water quallity issues after all these years

[darkalley]

[QUOTE=s4awd;15197441]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Here is a video review of both rs and cup. Main difference as I mentioned is the tranny. Tires as well but overall, same chassis, same motor. No one is going to buy an RS and race. They buy a Cup car. It is sold through different channels. Fuel systems, wheels, electrical systems, etc are all different but the base is THE SAME. The reviewer's last sentence says it all. You can call BS on this as well if you like And this isn't crazy on any level. Regardless of whose calling me a bullshit artist, We're talking cars!! I can't imagine doing anything better on New Years eve while stuck in the office. Happy New Year Everyone!!!!

[/url]

I bet if we met you in-person we would find that is totally your voice at the end and you dubbed over the real wording. As a 911 owner (which I will let non-911 owners in on a little secret- ownership comes w a membership to the Illuminati) we can do do this all we want.

[darkalley]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

What size is your tank? What skimmer are you running? Looks pretty healthy. I'm still fighting water quallity issues after all these years

Jesus the Audi RS guys and their elites saltwater tanks and carbon issues.

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Here is a video review of both rs and cup. Main difference as I mentioned is the tranny. Tires as well but overall, same chassis, same motor. No one is going to buy an RS and race. They buy a Cup car. It is sold through different channels. Fuel systems, wheels, electrical systems, etc are all different but the base is THE SAME. The reviewer's last sentence says it all. You can call BS on this as well if you like

Thank you for the immediate response S4AWD.

That review was a bit vague and over simplified to say the least. Here is a very good article from autoblog based on the press release for when the gt3 cup car came out.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/26/p...-of-frankfurt/

In case you don't want to share all of the details with everyone, I'll summarize for you. The GT3 cup car has:
1) though same V6 engine it is 3.8L (instead of 3.6L from gt3 rs) and has 30 bhp more than gt3 rs
2) different body work
3) lower and wider body
4) different wheel arches
5) upgraded exhaust
6) upgraded suspension
7) different brakes
8) totally gutted interior and significant weight reductions across the car
9) different aerodynamic features

Article lists every difference in good detail.

I agree the gt3 cup car is based on rs version, just like I think the M3 race car is based on the retail version. But there are very significant differences between the race cars and the street cars in both cases. Quite honestly, just listening to the video you posted, you could hear a lot of the differences between the two cars...it was kind of of funny that the reviewer didn't really address that.

Enjoy!

P.S. GT3 RS is street legal. Is the GT3 cup car? And the reason I called BS on you was because you first said that the only difference between a gt3 rs and a cup car was the transmission and fuel cell.
Correction: gt3 rs also has 3.8L, i think that was a mistake in the article

[Sy546]

Originally Posted by darkalley

I have no idea where the $250k number came from you mentioned.... I was essentially stating that the prices on GT3's have gone up 15% this year (it was a conservative number). As a dealer you would agree the GT3 is probably one of it not "the" fastest" rising values in the used car market right??? That was simply my point (and that Patrus has an issue with market pricing). The one owner GT3 is almost like a unicorn and for collectors those unmolested cars get a lot. You want to talk crazy? Since you are a dealer from NY I am sure you are familiar with Sloan but he asks (and gets) crazy money for his clean 911's. Check out this guy who does all consignments http://sloancars.com/

Sorry, i wasn't responding to just you. s4awd mentioned his 997.2 gt3 was worth 250k.

Agreed, GT3 pricing has been sky rocketing, but has leveled out a bit. Also what I'm trying to say is that unmolested 997.1/.2 gt3/rs aren't hard to find. The RS 4.0 is the holy grail that is worth $300k+. Not the regular cars that you can find for decent prices. I just listed 3 cars that are 1 owner, unmolested, & low miles.

Also I actually know sloancars decently well. I know one of his biggest consignment seller. But sloan deals with much rarer & older cars. So it isn't really fair to compare. & his 997 911s aren't too overpriced for how rare some of them are.

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Umm this is crazy on so many levels

Very good counter argument. I must admit after your very logical and well thought out response, I have no rebuttal.
Also, you need to learn how to quote other posts.

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Jesus the Audi RS guys and their elites saltwater tanks and carbon issues.

My fishtank doesn't have any carbon issues.. It's probably nitrates.
I kid, I kid Who knows what it is.

[darkalley]

Originally Posted by S.hasan546

Sorry, i wasn't responding to just you. s4awd mentioned his 997.2 gt3 was worth 250k.

Agreed, GT3 pricing has been sky rocketing, but has leveled out a bit. Also what I'm trying to say is that unmolested 997.1/.2 gt3/rs aren't hard to find. The RS 4.0 is the holy grail that is worth $300k+. Not the regular cars that you can find for decent prices. I just listed 3 cars that are 1 owner, unmolested, & low miles.

Also I actually know sloancars decently well. I know one of his biggest consignment seller. But sloan deals with much rarer & older cars. So it isn't really fair to compare. & his 997 911s aren't too overpriced for how rare some of them are.

I personally think the 1 owner GT3 RS with a few thousand miles are highly collectible right now and are investment grade cars. Imagine if you got a Ford GT a few years ago! I actually got my S2000 as an investment vehicle (not to make a killing but to drive it and make a few grand and it worked).

[darkalley]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

My fishtank doesn't have any carbon issues.. It's probably nitrates.
I kid, I kid Who knows what it is.

I was talking about your rs4 lol. Don't they have carbon issues?

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by darkalley

S4AWD is 100% correct as there is a shortage of low mileage GT3's (RS and non RS) and Porsche collectors are going crazy trying to buy them. In an earlier post I said prices were up 15% for a low mileage car in 2013 and that was being conservative. Look at Rennlist to see what people are asking (and getting for their cars).

You still mad at me for calling BS on S4AWD?

Originally Posted by s4awd

I purchased a 997.2 3.8 RS and it's going for up to $200k on the used market and the 4.0 is fetching over $350k.

S.hasan546 corrected him earlier on the gt3 rs used price.