Michelin Pilot Sport 4S

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by hellokitty

285/30/20 works like a champ. New tires and a better alignment = hooks in 2nd finally!

Warmer temps definitely help. Worth the upgrade just for the additional comfort alone.

I definitely think the look is different on 19s than it is on 20s. I agree the 20s look great. I’ve pretty muc settled on 265/19 and 285/19 PS4S since I want the extra .2” of tread width over the 295/35-19 PS4S. But I have not ruled out staying with PSS all around and going to 295 rear, which would give me .3” more than the PS4S 285s.

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by mattkim85

switched over from 305/30/19 MPSS to 285/30/20 MP4S (rears) and I can finally hook on 2nd without engaging TC at full throttle Sport+/S3. just like the previous post, I'm sure the higher temps helped, but I was never consistently able to full throttle it without engaging TC with the wider MPSS. I'm extremely happy with the switch.

Interesting. Another nudge toward the PS4S 285s. I wish they had a generic 295 spec. Damn you Mercedes!

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

Interesting. Another nudge toward the PS4S 285s. I wish they had a generic 295 spec. Damn you Mercedes!

Actually, BMW has started supplying MPS4S OEM on the F90 M5.

However, as with the MPSS, after extensive testing by BMW Engineers, they decided the generic versions were not acceptable for BMWs and forced Michelin to change their compound and tread for BMW.

Just as the Star MPSS were not as good in wet conditions as the generics, the same with the Star MPS4S. The Star Versions of the MPS4S also do not get the fuel efficiency the generic versions do. The BMW Engineers changed the compound so that other areas of the ride benefited while wet grip and fuel efficiency was diminished.

I would also not they did not require a special version of the Continental SportContacts 6 and accepted the generics as satisfactory for BMWs.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Actually, BMW has started supplying MPS4S OEM on the F90 M5.

However, as with the MPSS, after extensive testing by BMW Engineers, they decided the generic versions were not acceptable for BMWs and forced Michelin to change their compound and tread for BMW.

Just as the Star MPSS were not as good in wet conditions as the generics, the same with the Star MPS4S. The Star Versions of the MPS4S also do not get the fuel efficiency the generic versions do. The BMW Engineers changed the compound so that other areas of the ride benefited while wet grip and fuel efficiency was diminished.

I would also not they did not require a special version of the Continental SportContacts 6 and accepted the generics as satisfactory for BMWs.

I am not sure how you come up with this conclusion.

I cannot comment on the M5's MPS4S, as I did not do an assessment on them. However for the F8X PSS the narrower tread width and the wider water evacuation channels of the BMW star spec PSS would indicate that BMW favored wet grip over dry grip for their specific tires. Less "rubber on the road" would theoretically also translate to better fuel efficiency.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure how you come up with this conclusion.

I cannot comment on the M5's MPS4S, as I did not do an assessment on them. However for the F8X PSS the narrower tread width and the wider water evacuation channels of the BMW star spec PSS would indicate that BMW favored wet grip over dry grip for their specific tires. Less "rubber on the road" would theoretically also translate to better fuel efficiency.

I believe if you reread, we are saying the same thing about favoring dry conditions over wet.

BTW, it’s not my conclusion. It’s Michelin’s conclusion.

Examine the EU Tire Label of the MPSS and the MPS4S in same sizes, generic and Star Versions.

In both cases, the generic versions get an A Rating on Wet Conditions.

In both cases, the star versions get a B Rating on Wet Conditions.

So the BMW Star Version did sacrifice Wet Handling for Dry Handling, as both of us stated.

However, the Fuel Economy of the MPS4S Generic is a C while the Fuel Economy of the MPS4S Star Versions is an E (note D is not used on the EU Tire labels) in the same sizes.

Thus the MPS4S Star gets worse fuel economy than the generic.

It’s hard to find the MPSS EU TIre Labels online now as they were widely available on Tire Retailers sites when the tires were actually available. However, I do recall that someone DID post a pic of both MPSS labels in a Bimmerpost thread several years ago.

The MPS4S labels are easy to find now.

Also of interest, the prestigious Autobild 2018 Summer Tire tests downgraded the Wet Performance of the 19” MPS4S. Had it not been for that, the tires probably would have tied the SC6 for #1 in the test.

BMW changes in the Star Version makes this even more of an issue.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

I believe if you reread, we are saying the same thing about favoring dry conditions over wet.

BTW, it’s not my conclusion. It’s Michelin’s conclusion.

Examine the EU Tire Label of the MPSS and the MPS4S in same sizes, generic and Star Versions.

In both cases, the generic versions get an A Rating on Wet Conditions.

In both cases, the star versions get a B Rating on Wet Conditions.

So the BMW Star Version did sacrifice Wet Handling for Dry Handling, as both of us stated.

However, the Fuel Economy of the MPS4S Generic is a C while the Fuel Economy of the MPS4S Star Versions is an E (note D is not used on the EU Tire labels) in the same sizes.

Thus the MPS4S Star gets worse fuel economy than the generic.

It’s hard to find the MPSS EU TIre Labels online now as they were widely available on Tire Retailers sites when the tires were actually available. However, I do recall that someone DID post a pic of both MPSS labels in a Bimmerpost thread several years ago.

The MPS4S labels are easy to find now.

Also of interest, the prestigious Autobild 2018 Summer Tire tests downgraded the Wet Performance of the 19” MPS4S. Had it not been for that, the tires probably would have tied the SC6 for #1 in the test.

BMW changes in the Star Version makes this even more of an issue.

I am stating the exact opposite.

BMW star PSS for the F8X favor wet over dry traction.

Interesting about the ratings you show. It might be the case for M5's PS4S, but IMO it is not for the M3/4's PSS.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am stating the exact opposite.

BMW star favors wet.

Not according to EU Tire Labels from Michelin.

I am not stating my opinion, but Michelin’s.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Not according to EU Tire Labels from Michelin.

I am not stating my opinion, but Michelin’s.

Like I said, I cannot comment on the M5's PS4S, but it is unlikely the case for the M3/4's PSS.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Like I said, I cannot comment on the M5's PS4S, but it is unlikely the case for the M3/4's PSS.

It is correct according to Michelin themselves as seen on EU Tire Label in M3/M4 OEM sizes.

Not my opinion.

Michelin’s.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

It is correct according to Michelin themselves as seen on EU Tire Label in M3/M4 OEM sizes.

Not my opinion.

Michelin’s.

Thank you for posting the reference.

It however has me seriously doubting the validity of this rating. I have first hand experience with the both the generic and F8X specific PSS in 255-275/35R19 sizes. The BMW spec tires have a narrower tread width and significantly wider longitudinal water evacuation grooves than the generic ones. I fail to see how that could be worse in wet conditions.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Thank you for posting the reference.

It however has me seriously doubting the validity of this rating. I have first hand experience with the both the generic and F8X specific PSS in 255-275/35R19 sizes. The BMW spec tires have a narrower tread width and significantly wider longitudinal water evacuation grooves than the generic ones. I fail to see how that could be worse in wet conditions.

Again, why would Michelin state untrue information against their own product under legal consequences of the EU? Exaggerating one can understand. But tubing their own product?

As Google found out this week with a $5 Billion Dollar fine, the EU is not scared to levy big fines for violating the law, of which the EU Tire Label is.

I'm agnostic on the tires. I want the ones that are best no matter the brand. But I do look at the info such as this and it's hard to dismiss what a tire company legally has to disclose versus their PR/Marketing claims.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Again, why would Michelin state untrue information against their own product under legal consequences of the EU? Exaggerating one can understand. But tubing their own product?

As Google found out this week with a $5 Billion Dollar fine, the EU is not scared to levy big fines for violating the law, of which the EU Tire Label is.

I'm agnostic on the tires. I want the ones that are best no matter the brand. But I do look at the info such as this and it's hard to dismiss what a tire company legally has to disclose versus their PR/Marketing claims.

You might be putting too much emphasis on this rating. Note that it only relates to wet braking performance, which is far from representing overall wet performance.

Doing a quick spot check on the PS4S, it seems like the vast majority of OEM spec tires have an inferior B rating for the wet (all except one) while the vast majority of generic ones (all except 2) have the better A rating for the wet. That seems odd to me. Why would all OEM spec a worse wet tire ?

https://www.michelin.fr/pneus/michel...t-sport-4-s#sl

The answer likely lies in how the ratings are given/obtained.

Do yourself a favour, put a generic 275/35R19 side by side with a star spec 275/35R19 PSS and explain to me how the generic one will be better in the wet.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You might be putting too much emphasis on this rating.

Doing a quick spot check on the PS4S, it seems like the vast majority of OEM spec tires have an inferior B rating for the wet (all except one) while the vast majority of generic ones (all except 2) have the better A rating for the wet. That seems odd to me. Why would all OEM spec a worse wet tire ?

https://www.michelin.fr/pneus/michel...t-sport-4-s#sl

The answer likely lies in how the ratings are given in the first place.

Do yourself a favour, put a generic 275/35R19 side by side with a star spec 275/35R19 PSS and explain to me how the generic one will be better in the wet.

Why would any Company downgrade their own product...especially if it was a lie?

Again, I believe that the Company is divulging what it is legally obligated to do.

I cannot help that you disagree with their multudes of Engineers and research.

But the ponderence of evidence is against you.

You’ll have to argue that with Michelin as that’s who’s you disagree with.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Why would any Company downgrade their own product...especially if it was a lie?

Again, I believe that the Company is divulging what it is legally obligated to do.

I cannot help that you disagree with their multudes of Engineers and research.

But the ponderence of evidence is against you.

OK. Believe what you want

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

OK. Believe what you want

No offense to you as you have brought a wealth of information to bimmerpost and I have learned much from your posts, but any sane individual has to go Michelin and their facts when they state the issues with their own tires that you do not think exists.

Now if they stated they were great and you didn’t, many can grasp that. But we are talking the exact opposite situation where it makes no sense for Michelin to trash their own product unless legally obligated to divulge facts that are backed up by their own tests.

I am 100% sure Michelin has tested these tires 100x more than you and knows if the Star versions perform better, worse or the same in duplicate testing against the generics in controlled conditions.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

No offense to you as you have brought a wealth of information to bimmerpost and I have learned much from your posts, but any sane individual has to go Michelin and their facts when they state the issues with their own tires that you do not think exists.

Now if they stated they were great and you didn't, many can grasp that. But we are talking the exact opposite situation where it makes no sense for Michelin to trash their own product unless legally obligated to divulge facts that are backed up by their own tests.

I am 100% sure Michelin has tested these tires 100x more than you and knows if the Star versions perform better, worse or the same in duplicate testing against the generics in controlled conditions.

Geeze man let it go. Canaut already stated his opinion and why he thinks the michellin ratings may be misleading. He also filled you in on his firsthand experience with the tires. Why do you keep pressing and pressing for no reason?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

No offense to you as you have brought a wealth of information to bimmerpost and I have learned much from your posts, but any sane individual has to go Michelin and their facts when they state the issues with their own tires that you do not think exists.

Now if they stated they were great and you didn’t, many can grasp that. But we are talking the exact opposite situation where it makes no sense for Michelin to trash their own product unless legally obligated to divulge facts that are backed up by their own tests.

I am 100% sure Michelin has tested these tires 100x more than you and knows if the Star versions perform better, worse or the same in duplicate testing against the generics in controlled conditions.

Look deeper in the EU regulation. That is likely where the explanation lies. For instance, it seems that different testing standards are used when tires are rated as part of a vehicle type certification and general labelling. Maybe other members that are well versed in EU regulation can chime in ( Boss330 ). What I am trying to say is that we cannot always take everything at face value when it goes against common sense.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Look deeper in the EU regulation. That is likely where the explanation lies. For instance, it seems that different testing standards are used when tires are rated as part of a vehicle type certification (UNECE R117.02 for OE specific tires) and general labelling (EU Reg.228/2011 for generic tires). Maybe other members that are well versed in EU regulation can chime in ( Boss330 ). What I am trying to say is that we cannot always take everything at face value when it goes against common sense.

Regulations are consistent and very clearly stated for both.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Regulations are consistent and very clearly stated for both.

You are not looking deeply enough...

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are not looking deeply enough...

I’ve clearly looked deeper than anyone else on this forum.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

I’ve clearly looked deeper than anyone else on this forum.

Like I said, believe what you want. I'm done.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Like I said, believe what you want. I'm done.

Any rational person will believe Michelin inferior ratings of their own product than your opinion that thinks it’s great in the areas Michelin has proof they are inferior.

I’d throw in the towel if I were you as well because now instead of disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Michelin and the EU.

That’s an insurmountable mountain for you to climb over.