Adaptive vs. Passive Suspension

[KevN27]

I get some of the inputs about active damping is constantly adjusting the damping rate, but I am surprised that the system can respond so quickly...Bumps on the road require much faster changes than yaw etc. Or does it only compensate for yaw? What's the required response time for something like this? In the us? ms range?

I guess i am just skeptical that we're getting this much for a $1000 option.

I (and I imagine 98% of the people) will just leave it on one setting anyway.

[ake]

I just dropped this option out of my configuration yesterday since I figured that I'd be using sport mode most of the time anyways.

So I just stick to the "basics" and will be very happy once I need to replace these about the "low" costs

[BhamDavid]

I'm satisfied now. See: http://youtu.be/IwY9E6AlrJw

Adaptive is now part of my order.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by KevN27

I get some of the inputs about active damping is constantly adjusting the damping rate, but I am surprised that the system can respond so quickly...Bumps on the road require much faster changes than yaw etc. Or does it only compensate for yaw? What's the required response time for something like this? In the us? ms range?

I guess i am just skeptical that we're getting this much for a $1000 option.

I (and I imagine 98% of the people) will just leave it on one setting anyway.

Yes, you are getting that much for $1000. The cost of an adaptive suspension system to the OEM is typically $300-700, with Magneride at the high end of that range and other systems in the lower to middle.

The baseline damping is tuned properly to handle small bumps without needing additional adaptive control, then the control is increased very quickly when a larger input or body motion (roll, pitch, heave) is encountered. The typical response time is 5-15ms. The link below explains how this works in a bit more detail. However, note that I wrote it in context of the F30 system, which is not the same as the F8X or E9XM system. The M adaptive system has faster response, and is more appropriate for a performance application.

These systems DO work when well tuned. You can feel it, and on cars I've worked on, objective measurement data shows significant reduction in body motion and acceleration while maintaining ride quality and road input transmissibility.

IMO, The E9XM and F10M adaptive suspensions are quite good, and based on how quickly this technology is advancing, I expect the F8X adaptive suspension to be very impressive.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...hlight=racer20

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

Racer20... Got questions.

Do adaption damper systems typically adjust each damper individually? If so, does the control system look at yaw rates and include that factor into adjustments that are made?

I been searching for stuff to read to get a better education on this and haven't found anything but basic marketing information. Do you have suggestions?

The dampers are able to be adjusted individually. The control system looks at pretty much every factor you can imagine. Yaw rate, roll/pitch/heave, ride height, throttle/brake/gas inputs, ambient temperature, wheel speed, engine rpm, etc.

Anything that can be sensed can be used as an input if someone can find a use for it and write the software. I have a car at work where, with a few extra lines of code, I could use GPS to have the car behave in a specific way for each corner on a race track, or have it do something specific when I hit the annoying crack at the end of my driveway. It's also possible to stiffen the damper slightly over months or years or based on mileage to account for normal wear over the life of the car.

Unfortunately, these systems are a bit out of the realm of the typical amateur racer and most aftermarket companies, so there isn't much consumer level information out there other than marketing materials.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by ake

I just dropped this option out of my configuration yesterday since I figured that I'd be using sport mode most of the time anyways.

So I just stick to the "basics" and will be very happy once I need to replace these about the "low" costs

You replace dampers due to two reasons: Catastrophic failure or gradual loss of damping due to normal wear.

Durability requirements for most adaptive dampers are more stringent, so catastrophic failure is less of an issue than in the past. They are also typically less sensitive to damping loss over time, especially since it's possible to automatically account for this in the software.

The 60k mile shock replacement isn't necessary with these dampers as it once was, say for an E46.

[ake]

Originally Posted by Racer20

You replace dampers due to two reasons: Catastrophic failure or gradual loss of damping due to normal wear.

Durability requirements for most adaptive dampers are more stringent, so catastrophic failure is less of an issue than in the past. They are also typically less sensitive to damping loss over time, especially since it's possible to automatically account for this in the software.

I know this is a reason which might never be applied. For me the main reason is that I cannot really judge if it is worth the extra $1000 to me. I haven't driven either suspension (be it the M or the adaptive M) and I think as long as I haven't for a longer period of time I most probably couldn't tell the difference.

I will try to talk my dealer into adding it for half the price on my order... which should be possible since I got a lot of options. If he doesn't do it I won't take it... knowing that I'll be happy with the M suspension as well. I suppose this is better then the M suspension on my 1 series (hatchback, in Germany) so it should be pretty impressive

[tonymac1]

Hi guys
just a quick question, is the adaptive suspension option same as the edc option in the e92? where u can set it to comfort or sport?
So if u don't include the adaptive suspension option, is the suspension set to comfort all the time? does the ride differ at all without the option??

[Lups]

Originally Posted by tonymac1

Hi guys
just a quick question, is the adaptive suspension option same as the edc option in the e92? where u can set it to comfort or sport?
So if u don't include the adaptive suspension option, is the suspension set to comfort all the time? does the ride differ at all without the option??

No one has driven it, so this is a guessing game.

[solstice]

From the specs listed by Jason:

- Optional EDC Adaptive M Suspension features 3 modes: Comfort, Sport, Sport+

We don't know where the passive suspension is positioned vs. the adaptive. The common guess based on earlier M models is between comfort and sport in terms of stiffness. The ride is usually smoother with the adaptive suspension due to it's continuous adaptation to the road surface. It does IMO tend to rob you of some communication and predictability and maybe steering feel as well in return.

[Jaguar]

Adaptive gives you one setting firmer (Sport +) and one setting softer (Comfort). Passive suspension is right in the middle.

Adaptive M definitely does not rob of any road feel.

[LDSM]

Originally Posted by Racer20

The dampers are able to be adjusted individually. The control system looks at pretty much every factor you can imagine. Yaw rate, roll/pitch/heave, ride height, throttle/brake/gas inputs, ambient temperature, wheel speed, engine rpm, etc.

Anything that can be sensed can be used as an input if someone can find a use for it and write the software. I have a car at work where, with a few extra lines of code, I could use GPS to have the car behave in a specific way for each corner on a race track, or have it do something specific when I hit the annoying crack at the end of my driveway. It's also possible to stiffen the damper slightly over months or years or based on mileage to account for normal wear over the life of the car.

Unfortunately, these systems are a bit out of the realm of the typical amateur racer and most aftermarket companies, so there isn't much consumer level information out there other than marketing materials.

Thanks Racer20,
great information.

[KevN27]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Yes, you are getting that much for $1000. The cost of an adaptive suspension system to the OEM is typically $300-700, with Magneride at the high end of that range and other systems in the lower to middle.

The baseline damping is tuned properly to handle small bumps without needing additional adaptive control, then the control is increased very quickly when a larger input or body motion (roll, pitch, heave) is encountered. The typical response time is 5-15ms. The link below explains how this works in a bit more detail. However, note that I wrote it in context of the F30 system, which is not the same as the F8X or E9XM system. The M adaptive system has faster response, and is more appropriate for a performance application.

These systems DO work when well tuned. You can feel it, and on cars I've worked on, objective measurement data shows significant reduction in body motion and acceleration while maintaining ride quality and road input transmissibility.

IMO, The E9XM and F10M adaptive suspensions are quite good, and based on how quickly this technology is advancing, I expect the F8X adaptive suspension to be very impressive.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...hlight=racer20

Thank you. Think will add it on. "Just" $1000 on top of a growing list...

[curehead]

My sales person told me the passive suspension is only slightly softer than sport + on the adaptive dampers and that adaptive dampers would only give more on the comfort side of the spectrum. But i think he must have been guessing based on E90 EDCs since the new adaptive suspension is newly developed and i very much doubt he has driven it yet

[ake]

Originally Posted by ake

I will try to talk my dealer into adding it for half the price on my order... which should be possible since I got a lot of options. If he doesn't do it I won't take it... knowing that I'll be happy with the M suspension as well. I suppose this is better then the M suspension on my 1 series (hatchback, in Germany) so it should be pretty impressive

Talking worked... so actually I could add it back for just +$500 on the overall price agreed upon last Wednesday. I think this is a very good deal.

Drove the M5 with the adaptive suspension today. Could not really feel it on the short course I was supposed to go, but it was a fairly new road with very little curves...

[BM635]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Adaptive gives you one setting firmer (Sport +) and one setting softer (Comfort). Passive suspension is right in the middle.

Adaptive M definitely does not rob of any road feel.

So which setting is it when the car is in Sport mode? Will adaptive have a total of 3 firmness settings?

[Maddict3]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

!

you're abusing that image already. thats enough

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by ake

Talking worked... so actually I could add it back for just +$500 on the overall price agreed upon last Wednesday. I think this is a very good deal.

Drove the M5 with the adaptive suspension today. Could not really feel it on the short course I was supposed to go, but it was a fairly new road with very little curves...

Nice. Not a bad deal.

[jbraslins]

I am skeptical whether adaptive suspension actually takes input from various sensors and adjusts on the fly. In E90 M3 EDC was just a 3 setting button for 3 levels of shock stiffness. There was no real-time adjustment of any kind.

If F80 adaptive suspension actually changes its stiffness based on various real-time factors, I'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

[Racer20]

I design and tune these systems for a living. They do adjust in real time based on sensors on the car. The button determines HOW they adjust.

[Caruso0644]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

I'm satisfied now. See: http://youtu.be/IwY9E6AlrJw

Adaptive is now part of my order.

This video helped me make my choice

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

In E90 M3 EDC was just a 3 setting button for 3 levels of shock stiffness. There was no real-time adjustment of any kind.

This is not accurate.

One the E9X, the EDC Comfort and Normal modes are dynamically adjusted while the Sport mode has a fixed damper setting. For those that have the ZCP competition pack, the Sport mode is also dynamically adjusted.