MCCB or Steel brakes?

[karussell]

Originally Posted by E92_SID

Sooo... If CCB is NOT reccomended for track use, then whats the point? This level of unsprung mass would only really only count AT THE TRACK. But everybody is saying not to use them at the track because they will be too expensive to replace?

I am really curious to see how willing BMW is to replace them if they get chipped or have been tracked?

This was a very common question when the GT3's had them as an option back in 2007. I will say if you go to any track, check out the GT3's there and you will see 9/10 times its equipped with steel rotors. This is the case at the Nurburgring as well.

Do you really want to know the answer to your question and the dealership is facing a multiple thousand dollar bill for used rotors?

[ersin]

All speculation. In principle, for $6K I would seriously consider them. The benefits should be real -- fade resistance and light, unsprung weight plus the coolness factor. But I kind of have my doubts about the price. I think they will be closer to the price of the M5 brakes. We'll see.


Cheers.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by karussell

don't fool yourself into thinking they provide any tangible benefit other than lightening your wallet.

Real talk, and can probably be said about a lot of aftermarket parts we've all bought for the E92.. lol

[jbockrd]

My current M3 stops great, I'm sure the new one will be even better since its lighter. I'll stick with the steel!

[F82_SID]

I only go to a few track days a year but do push the car hard a lot! That being said, I wonder if this will be worth it because at my last track day, I was experiencing some dangerously serious break fade.

I am going to be completely honest here.. I am going to be ordering an AY M4 and am not happy about how the Blue standard M breaks are going to look with that yellow. lol. I know that is a stupid reason to be THINKING about CCB's.lol. I dont think I am going to be able to justify the price any way I try though.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Real talk, and can probably be said about a lot of aftermarket parts we've all bought for the E92.. lol

Bingo. If you're going to mod your brakes, order it from the factory. It will end up being cheaper, it will work perfectly, and if it doesn't you have a warranty and service contract.

[Brosef]

everyone who keeps saying $6k is fooling themselves. I would bet money they will be within $500 of $8,250, one way or the other. probably the wrong way.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by Brosef

everyone who keeps saying $6k is fooling themselves. I would bet money they will be within $500 of $8,250, one way or the other. probably the wrong way.

I wouldn't take that bet, though I too hope they are less.

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Bingo. If you're going to mod your brakes, order it from the factory. It will end up being cheaper, it will work perfectly, and if it doesn't you have a warranty and service contract.

Very true.. Especially true of any other appearance mods people make, including tint. Those really have zero benefit except making the car stand out. With CCB, based upon the info on the M5 board, the advantages are: less/no brake dust (huge benefit to me), lower rotational mass, longer service life with street use (possibly life of car, obviously a larger benefit the longer you keep the car), appearance mod, brake feel (subjective obviously). The disadvantages are already listed in multiple threads. Everyone will weigh each of these factors individually and weigh them against the -real- cost to them, based upon how much they are willing to blow on car parts. If I am a car nut, and don't mind blowing $10k on Individual program and mount it on $6k HREs, then yea, $8k for CCB may not matter that much. Everyone will have their own assessment. Christ, there are probably people that would spend $8 just to look different from other cars (read: BMW Individual)

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Brosef

everyone who keeps saying $6k is fooling themselves. I would bet money they will be within $500 of $8,250, one way or the other. probably the wrong way.

The CCB's on an M5 are $6500 here in Canada.I cannot see the CCB's being more than that on a M3/4 even with the 4 piston rear calipers.The majority of the cost increase is due to the carbon discs not the upgraded calipers.

[Swancoat]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

My current M3 stops great, I'm sure the new one will be even better since its lighter. I'll stick with the steel!

They stop great, but seem to be badly affected by heat. I'm in Texas and am on my 5th set of rotors on my E92 M3. They seem to get warped after a day or so of track use (Note: I'm novice at best and can hardly be described as 'fast').

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure), so it's not a cost thing, but the issue did ruin a few track weekends for me, and it's a huge inconvenience to keep bringing it in for that.

If the cost was reasonable (and I knew the problem would be solved) I'd strongly consider them.

[jbockrd]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

They stop great, but seem to be badly affected by heat. I'm in Texas and am on my 5th set of rotors on my E92 M3. They seem to get warped after a day or so of track use (Note: I'm novice at best and can hardly be described as 'fast').

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure), so it's not a cost thing, but the issue did ruin a few track weekends for me, and it's a huge inconvenience to keep bringing it in for that.

If the cost was reasonable (and I knew the problem would be solved) I'd strongly consider them.

For your situation to keep the brakes cool I get it. But the fragile nature of them, the expense up front and god forbid to replace, steel sounds like a better deal long term. But thats me and I'm not in a Texas type of climate

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

They stop great, but seem to be badly affected by heat. I'm in Texas and am on my 5th set of rotors on my E92 M3. They seem to get warped after a day or so of track use (Note: I'm novice at best and can hardly be described as 'fast').

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure), so it's not a cost thing, but the issue did ruin a few track weekends for me, and it's a huge inconvenience to keep bringing it in for that.

If the cost was reasonable (and I knew the problem would be solved) I'd strongly consider them.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that brakes--unlike engines, tires, and a host of other car components--are almost completely unaffected by ambient temperatures.

The delta between ambient temperatures (a "cold" day being 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and a "hot" day being maybe 100 degrees Fahrenheit) and the temperatures to which brakes are subjected (frequently greater than 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, with most track pads offering MOTs greater than 1500 degrees Fahrenheit) is so vast that the difference between brakes cooling on a "cold" day is virtually no different than brakes cooling on a "hot" day.

As a side note, brake cooling ducts--operating on the principle of convection---will be virtually equally effective on a hot day as on a cool day.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

They stop great, but seem to be badly affected by heat. I'm in Texas and am on my 5th set of rotors on my E92 M3. They seem to get warped after a day or so of track use (Note: I'm novice at best and can hardly be described as 'fast').

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure), so it's not a cost thing, but the issue did ruin a few track weekends for me, and it's a huge inconvenience to keep bringing it in for that.

If the cost was reasonable (and I knew the problem would be solved) I'd strongly consider them.

As a side note--and I'm making no assumptions about your knowledge as a driver, just throwing this out as a general tip--I've seen more than a few cases of novices with warped rotors at the end of a track day because of failing to do cool-down laps (although instructors should be teaching this to their students). If you head straight into the pit with hot rotors and never cool them down, they will sit in the pit (without the benefit of convection from the air rushing over them as you drive) and take significantly longer to cool (whether it's 100 degrees outside or 30 degrees outside, cooling down from 1000+ degrees Fahrenheit takes a significantly long time sitting in stagnant air).

[Swancoat]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that brakes--unlike engines, tires, and a host of other car components--are almost completely unaffected by ambient temperatures.

The delta between ambient temperatures (a "cold" day being 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and a "hot" day being maybe 100 degrees Fahrenheit) and the temperatures to which brakes are subjected (frequently greater than 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, with most track pads offering MOTs greater than 1500 degrees Fahrenheit) is so vast that the difference between brakes cooling on a "cold" day is virtually no different than brakes cooling on a "hot" day.

As a side note, brake cooling ducts--operating on the principle of convection---will be virtually equally effective on a hot day as on a cool day.

I'd say you're probably right. I'm not sure if being in Texas really has anything to do with it other than a completely unscientific observation that I seemed to have more consistent warping issues on the hottest days I was out there.

Of course, your point is right on. 40F difference in ambient temps probably doesn't mean squat in the big picture of brake temps. It's probably just coincidence (or poor/biased recollection) that makes me think they were more likely to warp on the hottest days (plus small sample size).

Regardless:
i) My rotors have warped too many times.
ii) It's super inconvenient and annoying.
iii) If MCCBs can prevent this, I'd pay up. Not 8k, but maybe (MAYBE) 5k.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

I'd say you're probably right. I'm not sure if being in Texas really has anything to do with it other than a completely unscientific observation that I seemed to have more consistent warping issues on the hottest days I was out there.

Of course, your point is right on. 40F difference in ambient temps probably doesn't mean squat in the big picture of brake temps. It's probably just coincidence (or poor/biased recollection) that makes me think they were more likely to warp on the hottest days (plus small sample size).

Regardless:
i) My rotors have warped too many times.
ii) It's super inconvenient and annoying.
iii) If MCCBs can prevent this, I'd pay up. Not 8k, but maybe (MAYBE) 5k.

Yeah, definitely not doubting that your rotors have been warping; I just thought I'd throw that bit of information out there. Highly inconvenient. You should definitely keep looking into what might be causing it. I know lots of guys here track on the stock rotors without this kind of hassle (warping after 1-2 track days).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Yeah, definitely not doubting that your rotors have been warping; I just thought I'd throw that bit of information out there. Highly inconvenient. You should definitely keep looking into what might be causing it. I know lots of guys here track on the stock rotors without this kind of hassle (warping after 1-2 track days).

Originally Posted by Swancoat

They stop great, but seem to be badly affected by heat. I'm in Texas and am on my 5th set of rotors on my E92 M3. They seem to get warped after a day or so of track use (Note: I'm novice at best and can hardly be described as 'fast').

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure), so it's not a cost thing, but the issue did ruin a few track weekends for me, and it's a huge inconvenience to keep bringing it in for that.

If the cost was reasonable (and I knew the problem would be solved) I'd strongly consider them.

Your brake issue might be related to your inexperience. My front rotors are good for 40+ track days and the rears lasted 80+ days (I have not changed them yet after 5 years of ownership). The discs don't warp, it is most likely pad deposits that you are experiencing. Do some search on the E9X track section, you will find plenty of good threads on the topic. Further, keeping DSC/MDM activated at the track will eventually overheat the brakes. Also, as you gain more experience, you learn to brake less and manage your brakes.

I am still on the fence regarding CCB. Not for the CCB rotors themesleves, but more for the upgraded calipers.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that brakes--unlike engines, tires, and a host of other car components--are almost completely unaffected by ambient temperatures.

The delta between ambient temperatures (a "cold" day being 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and a "hot" day being maybe 100 degrees Fahrenheit) and the temperatures to which brakes are subjected (frequently greater than 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, with most track pads offering MOTs greater than 1500 degrees Fahrenheit) is so vast that the difference between brakes cooling on a "cold" day is virtually no different than brakes cooling on a "hot" day.

As a side note, brake cooling ducts--operating on the principle of convection---will be virtually equally effective on a hot day as on a cool day.

Agreed, this also my understanding

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

As a side note--and I'm making no assumptions about your knowledge as a driver, just throwing this out as a general tip--I've seen more than a few cases of novices with warped rotors at the end of a track day because of failing to do cool-down laps (although instructors should be teaching this to their students). If you head straight into the pit with hot rotors and never cool them down, they will sit in the pit (without the benefit of convection from the air rushing over them as you drive) and take significantly longer to cool (whether it's 100 degrees outside or 30 degrees outside, cooling down from 1000+ degrees Fahrenheit takes a significantly long time sitting in stagnant air).

This is correct, proper cool down laps are imperative to good brake management. Again, it has to do with pad deposit. Do a proper cool down lap and then avoid touching the brakes altogether right until your car is parked in its spot in the paddock. And don't back-up into your spot, drive straight in. Everytime you touch the brakes with hot pads, you will deposit some uneven material on the discs. This is something I do teach to all my students .

[karussell]

Good thread here. I am all for anyone trying ceramic brakes and your money so do whatever you want. I knew about the drawbacks of them and ordered steel brakes on my first GT3. On the RS I wanted to give it a go and see for myself. I like to share my experiences and hope it may help someone out there.

The E92 brakes are not sufficient for track use. more specifically, the oem brake pad material is not sufficient. swap out with a proper endurance pad designed for heavy cars and it does a lot better. need to also upgrade the brake fluid to higher temp and flush frequently. castrol srf is my favorite. brake cooling ducts absolutely is effective and necessary. do these things and I think the oem calipers and rotors hold up pretty well. i still prefer brembo's and multi piston fixed calipers but oem with proper pads, fluid, cooling is sufficient.

If you need to do a cool down lap to keep the pads from sticking to the rotors you have the wrong pads and/or the brakes are undersized/undercooled for your use. cool down lap is to cool down the components of a car and the driver but the vehicle should be able to come in hot without any problems. for one thing you get an accurate temperature reading of the brakes and tires along with pressures coming in hot. You shouldn't have to fear using the brakes and that can be dangerous in a paddock. I prefer to back in a spot when i come back in from the track so when i leave i don't have to back out. usually leaving i'm more in a rush and it sucks backing up if you have helmet, hans, harness, and roll cage all hindering you from looking back. best situation is finding flat level area where i can just drive straight in and straight out. chaulk the car when parked.

a ceramic rotor alone will not be any better at slowing your car down or managing heat given equivalent design parameters of the steel rotor. pad compound choice is key. on the porsche the only approved pad for the ceramic disks are the oem supplied Pagid Yellows. they wear extremely quickly when used on a track. the porsche supercup uses Pagid Green pads on their ceramics, but these endurance pads will accelerate wear on the ceramic disks and they suck at braking cold. they are cold all the time unless you are on a track by the way. being the ceramic disks are from the same manufacturer and same design as porsche's, the MCCB's likely will also have very limited choices in pads. most likely only the ones that come with the car. any others will be very tempting for bmw to deny warranty coverage if they wear faster.

having driven the F10 M5 on the ring the oem brakes can't hold up to a single lap on the track without severe brake fade towards the second half of the course. the car is too heavy despite the massive brakes on it. the problem is the pad compound. BMW supplies the ring taxis with oem steel brakes and they run laps back to back using a different pad compound. on the M3/M4 I think the steel brakes will be just fine on the track once you put a good endurance pad on them. I'm sure the boys at PFC will make some nice slotted floating rotors that will be much cheaper to run and last quite a bit longer than the oem rotors.

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

Now, on the one hand, BMW was replacing them under the maintenance plan (class move for sure)

Does your service advisor know that you track your car? If so, why does BMW knowingly replace your rotors and pads, and if you don't mention that you track your car doesn't BMW wonder why you are going through rotors so quickly?

Will the CCB be covered under the BMW Maintenance Program?

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am still on the fence regarding CCB. Not for the CCB rotors themesleves, but more for the upgraded calipers.

Are there replacement steel rotors for the M5/6 that work with the CCB calipers?