CCB or aftermarket Brembo brakes?

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My students that destroy their brakes are usually the beginner/intermediates that over brake going into every corner and don't know how to properly manage their brakes.

Audi put awful brakes on the S4 to slot it well under $50k. I've improved a ton in the last 24 months regarding not over braking. I think the first time you go out with good brakes you just want to stand on them to see how far they can go before fading. Eventually your tires overheat and inflate up to 50 PSI, and that game ends.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

You guys have no idea how fast a forced induction "executive German sports sedan" is.

A heavier car isn't that big of a deal. Adding 10 MPH on the front straight increases the energy by 25%.

A 85mph front straight , that's a pretty slow track. Or maybe your FI german super sedan isn't that fast .

[Tonymiabmw]

How long can this continue I wonder

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

How long can this continue I wonder

The last one went 13 pages. Only 4 were slightly on topic. I didn't help much and I apologize for that.

[Tonymiabmw]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

The last one went 13 pages. Only 4 were slightly on topic. I didn't help much and I apologize for that.

Don't apologize quite funny

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

The last one went 13 pages. Only 4 were slightly on topic. I didn't help much and I apologize for that.

At least we are still on the topic of brakes

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

At least we are still on the topic of brakes

Very true! I just don't want to get into any more pissing matches. I don't know every single thing about the world of car racing, but I am certainly interested in knowing and I have the ability to listen when being taught by someone more knowledgeable. I have done plenty of track days, but mostly those were in the track owned cars. My main experience on the track is on a motorcycle (R6 and Aprilia Tuono) and that is a completely different world. I do agree that the exec pack is a waste of money that I would rather spend on the trip to Munich!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Ceramics are the only thing that can take the heat and dissipate it.

If you have steel this fire goes right into your wheel bearings and melts the grease:

Utter nonsense.

You know that CSiC brakes being significantly lighter in turn have less thermal mass, right? Lower thermal mass absorbing the same amount of energy makes for a larger temperature rise. Now that's not the end of the world as the first thing temperature will affect will be braking power from a pad that can not maintain friction at a very high temperature. Luckily that is always sorted out well with a CSiC brake rotor as it has a pad matched to the temperatures that will be generated.

In addition, BMW has for generations, used a compound brake rotor on M cars. These have the actual brake disc mounted on pins connecting to a lightweight aluminum hub.



This allows for radial thermal expansion with much less tendency to warp. It also radically reduced the thermal pathway to the hub preventing temperatures in excess of what the wheel bearings can handle.

Really the only way to cook wheel bearings on an M car is one and/or the other of:

-Really poor braking skills or downright abuse
-Running R-comp tires, that is what will really give a brake system a workout

CSiC brakes make more sense for a lightly used street only car. In that case it is not so much braking performance that is gained but simply longevity and a lower unsprung weight. At the much higher temperatures seen during tracking the wear in the CSiC even with their appropriately matched pads is significantly accelerated. Thus for hard use and to minimize total long term cost, the regular cast iron rotors come out way ahead.

As others have stated the best upgrades for braking are simply some upgraded pads, some top notch brake fluid and R-comp tires.

Carry on...

[Tonymiabmw]

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Utter nonsense.

You know that CSiC brakes being significantly lighter in turn have less thermal mass, right? Lower thermal mass absorbing the same amount of energy makes for a larger temperature rise. Now that's not the end of the world as the first thing temperature will affect will be braking power from a pad that can not maintain friction at a very high temperature. Luckily that is always sorted out well with a CSiC brake rotor as it has a pad matched to the temperatures that will be generated.

In addition, BMW has for generations, used a compound brake rotor on M cars. These have the actual brake disc mounted on pins connecting to a lightweight aluminum hub.



This allows for radial thermal expansion with much less tendency to warp. It also radically reduced the thermal pathway to the hub preventing temperatures in excess of what the wheel bearings can handle.

Really the only way to cook wheel bearings on an M car is one and/or the other of:

-Really poor braking skills or downright abuse
-Running R-comp tires, that is what will really give a brake system a workout

CSiC brakes make more sense for a lightly used street only car. In that case it is not so much braking performance that is gained but simply longevity and a lower unsprung weight. At the much higher temperatures seen during tracking the wear in the CSiC even with their appropriately matched pads is significantly accelerated. Thus for hard use and to minimize total long term cost, the regular cast iron rotors come out way ahead.

As others have stated the best upgrades for braking are simply some upgraded pads, some top notch brake fluid and R-comp tires.

Carry on...

Well said! Sigh.....but he'll retort until he's blue in the face.

[gee-m-w]

I measured a few 911 turbo with CCB coming off track in the instructor group. The temps were consistently lower, sometimes under 300 F. I was blown away. The S4 size cars come off minimum 500 degrees, 580 if you are cooking it.

[Tonymiabmw]

..................

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Utter nonsense.

You know that CSiC brakes being significantly lighter in turn have less thermal mass, right? Lower thermal mass absorbing the same amount of energy makes for a larger temperature rise. Now that's not the end of the world as the first thing temperature will affect will be braking power from a pad that can not maintain friction at a very high temperature. Luckily that is always sorted out well with a CSiC brake rotor as it has a pad matched to the temperatures that will be generated.

In addition, BMW has for generations, used a compound brake rotor on M cars. These have the actual brake disc mounted on pins connecting to a lightweight aluminum hub.



This allows for radial thermal expansion with much less tendency to warp. It also radically reduced the thermal pathway to the hub preventing temperatures in excess of what the wheel bearings can handle.

Really the only way to cook wheel bearings on an M car is one and/or the other of:

-Really poor braking skills or downright abuse
-Running R-comp tires, that is what will really give a brake system a workout

CSiC brakes make more sense for a lightly used street only car. In that case it is not so much braking performance that is gained but simply longevity and a lower unsprung weight. At the much higher temperatures seen during tracking the wear in the CSiC even with their appropriately matched pads is significantly accelerated. Thus for hard use and to minimize total long term cost, the regular cast iron rotors come out way ahead.

As others have stated the best upgrades for braking are simply some upgraded pads, some top notch brake fluid and R-comp tires.

Carry on...

Have you ever put a cast iron pan on a cast iron stove? Would you touch the stove grates with your bare hand? If the answer is no, is it because it's the same exact temperature as the pan?

[fyim]

Originally Posted by aus

I think you have it backwards. CCB is hard to get right the first time... just ask the Porsche guys who bought first gen CCB. The BBK's are pretty much just a new mounting bracket and that's it. Brembo, StopTech, AP all have hundreds of different calipers and they'll find one that matches up well with the stock master cylinder.

OP said he's going to track it, which will signficantly shorten the life of the rotor. You'll also be limited on what pads you can use. Porsche guys who used other track pads ruined their CCB rotors much faster than the ones who used the Porsche track pads.

.

That's what my dealer said to me yesterday. "Don't order them, they are not really pure CC brakes, so we had some complains"

So i'm guessing it was in his advance to just let me order them also.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I measured a few 911 turbo with CCB coming off track in the instructor group. The temps were consistently lower, sometimes under 300 F. I was blown away. The S4 size cars come off minimum 500 degrees, 580 if you are cooking it.

Hmmm, good driver, light car vs. much heavier AWD car with worse driver and the brakes are cooler in the former, imagine that...

There is no universal here, it is not that CSiC brakes are always hotter or always cooler. It is just that their thermal mass specifically makes them warmer than if they had more thermal mass.

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Have you ever put a cast iron pan on a cast iron stove? Would you touch the stove grates with your bare hand? If the answer is no, is it because it's the same exact temperature as the pan?

I'm really going to reach here as I have no idea what your point is.

Are you saying that all parts of a brake and hub system including rotor, hat, pads and hub are all at the same temperature during heavy braking? You might notice that one can also cook in a cast iron pan under very high temperature and that the handle of the pan is still handleable. Same thing applies to brakes, different parts reach different peak temperatures because of both conduction and convection cooling.

Either way my original points stand. 1. Normal heavy track use with traditional rotors does not cook wheel bearings and 2. CSiC brakes are not the best choice for hard use due to accelerated wear and very high cost.

[gee-m-w]

All your points are believable except for "accelerated wear". As compared to what? The pyramids? They might only last a few hundred thousand miles.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I measured a few 911 turbo with CCB coming off track in the instructor group. The temps were consistently lower, sometimes under 300 F. I was blown away. The S4 size cars come off minimum 500 degrees, 580 if you are cooking it.

It is not because that they are cooler when coming off track that they are cooler when in operation.

CCBs have better heat dissipation capabilities than cast irons, so they cool down faster (this is why they have better resistance to fade). But while in operation (during braking), they do run much hotter than cast iron ones.

[drob23]

LOL, this thread really delivers, West, you truly are a treasure.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

You guys have no idea how fast a forced induction "executive German sports sedan" is. Fortunately for you, I've been living in your future since 2010. It's fast enough to eat brakes. Like, destroy them.

kinentic energy = 0.5 * mass * (velocity^2)

A heavier car isn't that big of a deal. Adding 10 MPH on the front straight increases the energy by 25%. You can annihilate brakes this way. Ceramics are the only thing that can take the heat and dissipate it.

If you have steel this fire goes right into your wheel bearings and melts the grease:

haha, really? a heavier car isn't harder on brakes?

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My students that destroy their brakes are usually the beginner/intermediates that over brake going into every corner and don't know how to properly manage their brakes.

this

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Utter nonsense.

You know that CSiC brakes being significantly lighter in turn have less thermal mass, right? Lower thermal mass absorbing the same amount of energy makes for a larger temperature rise. Now that's not the end of the world as the first thing temperature will affect will be braking power from a pad that can not maintain friction at a very high temperature. Luckily that is always sorted out well with a CSiC brake rotor as it has a pad matched to the temperatures that will be generated.

In addition, BMW has for generations, used a compound brake rotor on M cars. These have the actual brake disc mounted on pins connecting to a lightweight aluminum hub.



This allows for radial thermal expansion with much less tendency to warp. It also radically reduced the thermal pathway to the hub preventing temperatures in excess of what the wheel bearings can handle.

Really the only way to cook wheel bearings on an M car is one and/or the other of:

-Really poor braking skills or downright abuse
-Running R-comp tires, that is what will really give a brake system a workout

CSiC brakes make more sense for a lightly used street only car. In that case it is not so much braking performance that is gained but simply longevity and a lower unsprung weight. At the much higher temperatures seen during tracking the wear in the CSiC even with their appropriately matched pads is significantly accelerated. Thus for hard use and to minimize total long term cost, the regular cast iron rotors come out way ahead.

As others have stated the best upgrades for braking are simply some upgraded pads, some top notch brake fluid and R-comp tires.

Carry on...

couldn't agree more, graet post

race pads and fluid will be all 99% of us need on the track with this car, myself included. I expect the brakes with these minor mods to perform very very well

[davem3fan]

Devil's Advocate:
Why assume the OEM "basic" brakes with the traditional M brake discs won't be good enough?

(I worded my first post poorly, and paid the price...)

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by davem3fan

Devil's Advocate:

Why is everyone here assuming the OEM brakes with the traditional brake discs won't be good enough?

most of us aren't assuming that.

I completely agree with you. The only mod to make if you are a pretty quick driver and track often is race pads and upgraded fluid.

Even on the e9x this is sufficient for most drivers, and these new 4/2 piston brakes should be far superior to the old sliding single caliper design.