Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

[adc]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Yeah I think waiting for 991.1 GT3 is the way to go for a dedicated track car. They seem pretty bullet proof with the PDK. Don’t have to worry about over revs. Most of the 997 GT3 are sitting in collections and aren’t seeing tracks anymore.

I’ve been seeing 991.1 GT3s in the $90k’s range

Unfortunately the .1 is not in my future, I don’t want PDK. Row my own gears as long as I can...

[adc]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

OP check out this ongoing auction on bring a trailer.

That car has a solid list of mods and looks to be ready to go.

One thing that I didn’t see mentioned is whether the coolant lines have been pinned.

All 996 and 997 turbo and GT cars need to have this done if they are going to be tracked hard. Most shops charge around $3k for it. It likely was done when the turbo swap was done for this car.

Personally,I’d rather go for a 997 GT3 instead, if one can be found at reasonable cost.

I’ve had 2 friends with big bills on 996 turbos, one stock and one modded similarly to the car in the ad. The friend with the modded turbo, after having to invest some $15-20k in repairs/upgrades, is pretty much wedded to that car. I’d rather not be, so I’m weary.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

I’m leaning this way, at least until I have a discretionary $100k budget for a track toy.

I know there was an F80 with an instructor who ran mid 2:05’s at VIR on Pirelli scrubs. So 2:08 should be possible on RE71, which will be my next mod once the Nittos are gone. In fact I think on a good day temperature wise, with a clear track, I can run 2:09’s with my current setup, without taking big risks. But the RE71 is definitely in my future.

And an Ohlins suspension. Idle hands...

I ran 2:05 at VIR with BFG R1 the weekend we were both there.
It is far from the potential of the F8X, but my MCS suspension was incorrectly valved for an E46 instead of the F8X and the car was trying to kill me. James did a 2:01 in my car as well with the same horrible setup.
With the suspension all messed up we were not able to beat our stock-suspension times at a track we know decently well, WGI. [VIR is not a good measure for us as 2019 was our third time there in 4 years]

A middle of the road suspension like Ohlins R&T or KW CS is fully daily-driveable and will get you a bit more juice.

[adc]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I ran 2:05 at VIR with BFG R1 the weekend we were both there.
It is far from the potential of the F8X, but my MCS suspension was incorrectly valved for an E46 instead of the F8X and the car was trying to kill me. James did a 2:01 in my car as well with the same horrible setup.
With the suspension all messed up we were not able to beat our stock-suspension times at a track we know decently well, WGI. [VIR is not a good measure for us as 2019 was our third time there in 4 years]

A middle of the road suspension like Ohlins R&T or KW CS is fully daily-driveable and will get you a bit more juice.

2:01 is a very solid time at VIR, especially with that suspension situation. So you think the car can go lower? If I recall you have some weight removed as well.
What am I talking about? It’s not like I’ll get even close to that time, or 2:05 for that matter...

Anyway what are you guys running at WGI? Hopefully I’ll get there this year.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by adc

Personally,I’d rather go for a 997 GT3 instead, if one can be found at reasonable cost.

I’ve had 2 friends with big bills on 996 turbos, one stock and one modded similarly to the car in the ad. The friend with the modded turbo, after having to invest some $15-20k in repairs/upgrades, is pretty much wedded to that car. I’d rather not be, so I’m weary.

It’s $90k buy in for a 7gt3 versus $40k buy in (maybe less) for a 6TT.

I have a lot of respect for your wallet that you are seriously thinking of going that route for a track rat

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

2:01 is a very solid time at VIR, especially with that suspension situation. So you think the car can go lower? If I recall you have some weight removed as well.
What am I talking about? It’s not like I’ll get even close to that time, or 2:05 for that matter...

Anyway what are you guys running at WGI? Hopefully I’ll get there this year.

At WGI so far the fastest CS time is with stock suspension with camber plates and RE71 tires on stock wheels. 2:06.9 or .7, I don't recall
The fastest E90 time is 2:04.4.

With suspension and R1 tires I'm sure either can get into 2:02.
Weight was 3560lb stock, we removed a net of like 60lb removing front and rear seats and installing front bucket seats, a rear harness support and belts.

Go to a PCA event and look at which cars can get to 2:05. There is no need to upgrade beyond an F8X, especially when that 'upgrade' is going to take you backwards.

The forum world is special, full of excel sheets doing power to weight divisions and words like 'purpose built sports cars' that are used as if they mean anything.
In the real world, the chief instructor of your home region that has been racing longer than you have been alive buys a 996 GT3, does suspension, engine rebuild, Hoosier R7s and is still slower than a stock engined E90 M3. Fortunately as it is the real world, not the forum world, and the CI has actually raced many years, they come tell you they can't believe they can't catch you in braking, acceleration or turns.

Lastly, I'll say that buying a Cup car is one of the worst ideas someone can have. Do not buy an actual race car unless you have been paid to race at some point in your life*. They are impossible to drive, which accounts for more than half of them in the top PCA group getting taken out by street driven M3s.
If you want a Porsche that serves for something at the track, buy a 991 GT3 on up. Anything before that is slow as hell.


*Funny story. Some poor misguided souls used to campaign a 997 S in American Endurance Racing. A class 4 car, so classed the same way as a stone age E36.
They blew it up during practice because again, who would have thought of using a non GT3 Porsche to try to race E36s with mismatched body panels. Anyway, as the team owners had a lot of money and very little sense guess what showed up in the grid the next day? A 997 Cup car! These guys went ahead and bought a Cup car overnight to try to race E36s.
Some fools on other teams saw the car and were scared, meanwhile, my brother and I tried hard not to pee ourselves laughing at what kind of misguided brain fart could ever convince them to do something that dumb.
Results? Pathetic. Couldn't even beat class 4 cars. Impossible to drive it. Incredibly capable if you are Randy Pobst but that's about it


Edit for the Porsche apologists that for whatever reason hang out in BMW forums: if someone took a Z4 GT3 to a track day I would also think they are idiots

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Go to a PCA event and look at which cars can get to 2:05.

In the real world,

Hi so, just for fun, I did as you suggested, and pulled 2 random results sheets from PCA at VIR from the 2019 PCA archive

here the 996 cup cars in sub 2:00 range

here a bunch of cayman and 997 S are sub 2:05

not sure if this is the same configuration you are referencing, and of course, comparing times across days is inconclusive for a number of reasons, but cool story aside, I think you are generalizing a bit much.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hi so, just for fun, I did as you suggested, and pulled 2 random results sheets from PCA at VIR from the 2019 PCA archive

here the 996 cup cars in sub 2:00 range

here a bunch of cayman and 997 S are sub 2:05

not sure if this is the same configuration you are referencing, and of course, comparing times across days is inconclusive for a number of reasons, but cool story aside, I think you are generalizing a bit much.

I'm not sure what the relevance of race data in this discussion. So race prepped cars are decently fast? I hope so.
A Cup car costs a metric fuckload to run per year. Besides the trailer/truck setup and where to park those two things, of course.

You see a lot of Porsches doing sub 2:05 at VIR/WGI that were driven to the track? Neither do I

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm not sure what the relevance of race data in this discussion. So race prepped cars are decently fast? I hope so.
A Cup car costs a metric fuckload to run per year. Besides the trailer/truck setup and where to park those two things, of course.

You see a lot of Porsches doing sub 2:05 at VIR/WGI that were driven to the track? Neither do I

The relevance is that there are a lot of non pro people driving cup cars and you can buy a non gt Porsche and do suspension, tire and brake mods (while what we do with our f8x) and they have decent outcomes (fully agree that you can get the lap times cheaper elsewhere!)

My best guess is it costs about $750 / hr to operate a cup car, factoring in $50k per 100 hours to fully rebuild the engine and gearbox, plus other consumables but not fuel. And $0.70 per mile to haul and $300 per month to store at track (at least that’s the sonoma rate)

[nicknaz]

OP, consider getting this car, and work with a shop to put a removable cat and get it plated again and drive it on 200tw, nt01 or cup 2 to and from the track for a low hassle experience that’s similar to using your street car for DE

(I did that exact thing with my SM while getting my comp license to keep my investment low at the start)

since you are using a competition prepped car it has the safety gear and reliability mods and data setup baked in.

Way more cost effective IMHO than modding and tracking a street car Porsche. And since it is basically a modded street 996 instead of a cup you don’t have as much cost for rebuilds

https://showroom.windingroad.com/lis...eid=eefb770acb

[adc]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

OP, consider getting this car, and work with a shop to put a removable cat and get it plated again and drive it on 200tw, nt01 or cup 2 to and from the track for a low hassle experience that’s similar to using your street car for DE

(I did that exact thing with my SM while getting my comp license to keep my investment low at the start)

since you are using a competition prepped car it has the safety gear and reliability mods and data setup baked in.

Way more cost effective IMHO than modding and tracking a street car Porsche. And since it is basically a modded street 996 instead of a cup you don’t have as much cost for rebuilds

https://showroom.windingroad.com/lis...eid=eefb770acb

If that car showed up on a trailer in front of my house, I’d be divorced with a chunky alimony to eat up my track costs.

Jokes aside, I don’t have the towing infrastructure needed for a dedicated non street legal toy (truck, trailer, storage for everything).

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by adc

If that car showed up on a trailer in front of my house, I’d be divorced with a chunky alimony to eat up my track costs.

Jokes aside, I don’t have the towing infrastructure needed for a dedicated non street legal toy (truck, trailer, storage for everything).

You totally missed the key part of my post.

You don’t necessarily need a truck trailer and storage for that car, because you can work it out to put a license plate on the car and drive it to and from the track with cup 2 tires or nt01, just like you do with your f80 today.

Or are you saying you need a “dual purpose car” that you daily and track.

If that’s the case, I misunderstood. I thought this was a track toy, and your only constraint was that it needed to get to the track without being towed there.

[adc]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

You totally missed the key part of my post.

You don’t necessarily need a truck trailer and storage for that car, because you can work it out to put a license plate on the car and drive it to and from the track with cup 2 tires or nt01, just like you do with your f80 today.

Or are you saying you need a “dual purpose car” that you daily and track.

If that’s the case, I misunderstood. I thought this was a track toy, and your only constraint was that it needed to get to the track without being towed there.

I do appreciate your input. You’re coming from a direction I hadn’t considered and it’s making me stretch mentally to examine the fit.

Ideally it would be a dual purpose car. That’s why I was leaning towards a 911 GTS initially, basing it on the experience of member Maynardz who seemed to have a lot of fun with one of those. But then, he also has a hardcore race car so his case is more complex.

My friend drives his .2 RS if not daily then at least every now and then, weekends early morning and other special occasions. So even a GT3 although more hardcore than a GTS, would be ok.

If I wanted a dedicated track rat, I think I’d go for an E46 M3, known platform with lower costs. But even if streetable, a car like this (or the hardcore 996 in your link) would only be driven to and from the racetrack. I couldn’t store it at the track because I go to 4-5 different ones (VIR, Pittrace, WGI, NJMP and Summit usually) and I want to do others. It would need to be insured but otherwise parked on the street (MD is not like CA) and only driven 5-6 times a year.

To me personally that is wasteful, and the major spending starts with buying a $30-50k car that only gets driven a few times per year. Ok you can perhaps recoup part of that cost when you resell it, but it’s hard to calculate given that it would deteriorate sitting outside for 4-5 years. I think if I had a proper big garage for toys I’d think differently.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by adc

I do appreciate your input. YouÂ’re coming from a direction I hadnÂ’t considered and itÂ’s making me stretch mentally to examine the fit.

Glad I could help a bit.

Good luck and hope you enjoy whatever you end up with in good health

feel free to hit me up if you are in norcal if you want to try out any of the vehicles in my profile at Sonoma. Proof of HPDE insurance, a contribution to my tire fund, and an agreement you'll fix it if you money shift it and good to go.

[adc]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Glad I could help a bit.

Good luck and hope you enjoy whatever you end up with in good health

feel free to hit me up if you are in norcal if you want to try out any of the vehicles in my profile at Sonoma. Proof of HPDE insurance, a contribution to my tire fund, and an agreement you'll fix it if you money shift it and good to go.

Don’t think I won’t take advantage of your generous offer.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by adc

Don’t think I won’t take advantage of your generous offer.

Hope so! Let me know.



I posted the same thing a while ago in the track forum discussion thread, and not even people living in CA have contacted me. Lol

[coryf]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

*Funny story. Some poor misguided souls used to campaign a 997 S in American Endurance Racing. A class 4 car, so classed the same way as a stone age E36.
They blew it up during practice because again, who would have thought of using a non GT3 Porsche to try to race E36s with mismatched body panels. Anyway, as the team owners had a lot of money and very little sense guess what showed up in the grid the next day? A 997 Cup car! These guys went ahead and bought a Cup car overnight to try to race E36s.
Some fools on other teams saw the car and were scared, meanwhile, my brother and I tried hard not to pee ourselves laughing at what kind of misguided brain fart could ever convince them to do something that dumb.
Results? Pathetic. Couldn't even beat class 4 cars. Impossible to drive it. Incredibly capable if you are Randy Pobst but that's about it


Edit for the Porsche apologists that for whatever reason hang out in BMW forums: if someone took a Z4 GT3 to a track day I would also think they are idiots

That was one of our customers car's we had on consignment. We couldn't believe it when we received an "out of the blue" phone call about buying the car. I bet that thing was a mess with the stock suspension on street tires.

I cant say too much though, another customer wanted to run an AER race with a 991 cup. We changed spring rates, ride height and alignment but the car was surprisingly decent on the 200 tw tire. It was a lot of fun but we sure got a lot of funny looks the first day.

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by adc

Is your E36 a daily or at least street car? Most E36’s I see at the track which are as fast or faster than an F80 are dedicated track machines, with all that implies.

My E36 is still a registered and plates street car. I don’t drive anywhere except the alignment shop though. Build journal here...

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-Build-Journal

Lastly, I will say this... if you’re just having fun, it is way kore fun to drive a slow car at its limit, then a fast car well below its limit.

[adc]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

My E36 is still a registered and plates street car. I don’t drive anywhere except the alignment shop though. Build journal here...

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-Build-Journal

Lastly, I will say this... if you’re just having fun, it is way kore fun to drive a slow car at its limit, then a fast car well below its limit.

I’ll say, it sure looks nice... and quite a transformation.

But to counter point, you’ve sunk quite a bit of money in it, and you trailer it to the track. That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid, not having the necessary infrastructure to tow and store the thing.

And my idea of fun is to get close to the limits no matter what car I drive. I’m absolutely certain I’m not there yet with the F80, but the journey getting there is a blast.

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by adc

I’ll say, it sure looks nice... and quite a transformation.

But to counter point, you’ve sunk quite a bit of money in it, and you trailer it to the track. That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid, not having the necessary infrastructure to tow and store the thing.

And my idea of fun is to get close to the limits no matter what car I drive. I’m absolutely certain I’m not there yet with the F80, but the journey getting there is a blast.

Real numbers, the E36 I've got $18k in total as it sits including fresh tires and brake pads. The F80 I put $20k in mods alone (coilovers, sway bar, BBK, monoballs, seats, harness, half cage, track rims). That's not including fresh tires. I primarily trailer it because the trailer is air conditioned and makes a comfortable day at the track. Biggest difference in the cars on track? The peace of mind tracking something 1/4 the cost of the other.

But cars, tracking, and life in general is all about compromise and I'm just adding input. Perhaps if my wife could confidently drive a manual on track, both cars would probably be gone and a track focused P-car (996 or 997 GT3) would be in the garage. But then the peace of mind argument comes into play.

Tough decisions but at least we are all in a position to be considering it.

[adc]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

Tough decisions but at least we are all in a position to be considering it.

[avantix]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The forum world is special, full of excel sheets doing power to weight divisions and words like 'purpose built sports cars' that are used as if they mean anything.
In the real world, the chief instructor of your home region that has been racing longer than you have been alive buys a 996 GT3, does suspension, engine rebuild, Hoosier R7s and is still slower than a stock engined E90 M3. Fortunately as it is the real world, not the forum world, and the CI has actually raced many years, they come tell you they can't believe they can't catch you in braking, acceleration or turns.

This is so true and happened to me. I'm in the red run group at my local BMW club and despite being solo I like to run the first session of the day with an instructor, I believe you can always learn something. He was seasoned veteran with lots W2W racing experience and had a 996 GT3 and could not believe the amount of torque the F80 M3 had and the speed it could carry into a turn. He flat out said he wouldn't be able to keep up with this car. Despite that I can also understand the argument of driving a visceral car like a 996 GT3. It all depends what you're after but all things being equal when something breaks on a P car especially a GT I can't imagine it being cheap.