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      11-19-2020, 09:26 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
You know that the G80 comes in either AWD or RWD, right?

You are giving the F80 DCT too much credit. If you own one, you'll know that it is jerky and constantly get the kangaroo. I'm not the only one complaining about that.

My friend with an F90 M5 actually prefers the ZF8 over his F80 DCT.
RWD is still 300+ lbs heavier even in MT configuration. G8x will not perform better in most tracks because of transmission and weight. If you drive DCT in auto it can be jerky, but I never get any jerk because I drive in manual mode with sensible gear selection (no high gears before warmup.)
M5 demographic has always been focused on comfort vs. sporty M3/4, of course he will prefer a more lethargic and smooth transmission.

I need my coupes to be dialed to ten; I already have a Cayenne for my cruising needs.
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      11-19-2020, 09:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Some of us have interests other than launching from a dig...
Some of us have an interest in taking the car to the drag strip and the track

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Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
This. Utilizing power to compensate for weight is only applicable in a single scenario. Compensating for that additional weight when inertia applied, suddenly you’ve many needs to compensate for. Transmission, diff, brakes and the list goes on. To my knowledge BMW isn’t the king of the drag strip and I wouldn’t purchase mine to be. The lighter, the better. Period.
To my knowledge, BMW isn't the king of the track, either.

But we have multiple F80 in the 9s. To put that into perspective, that is quicker than Bugatti, McLaren 720s.

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      11-19-2020, 09:43 PM   #47
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      11-19-2020, 10:05 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Some of us have an interest in taking the car to the drag strip and the track
Weight does matter when turning is involved (track) and 500 lbs (referencing your earlier comment) will surely be noticeable and is far from negligible.

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Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
To my knowledge, BMW isn't the king of the track, either.
BMW isn't the king of anything. F8x is a much better track car out-of-the-box than it is a drag car.
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      11-20-2020, 12:31 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABenChod View Post
Weight does matter when turning is involved (track) and 500 lbs (referencing your earlier comment) will surely be noticeable and is far from negligible.



BMW isn't the king of anything. F8x is a much better track car out-of-the-box than it is a drag car.
When did I refer to track? I clearly listed quarter-mile times after saying 500lb is negligible.

I disagree. F80 is an out-of-the-box 11-second car in the quarter-mile- not too far behind a stock GTR.
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      11-20-2020, 12:42 AM   #50
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Put yourself in the head of a car collector in 25 years - will DCT/heads up display/electronics matter? People collect cars for the driving experience, and a manual transmission provides an engaging driving experience. Imagine you have 10 cars in your garage, and it's 6am on a Sunday - which keys do you pick up? You know if you want performance you have the 2045 all-electric Porsche GT3.

That's why I went with 6MT, cloth seats, not even a backup camera. Even a backup camera doesn't matter in 25 years Collectors want unique experiences, I don't think 6 speed, cloth seat german sedans are being made anymore.
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      11-20-2020, 06:31 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Some of us have an interest in taking the car to the drag strip and the track



To my knowledge, BMW isn't the king of the track, either.

But we have multiple F80 in the 9s. To put that into perspective, that is quicker than Bugatti, McLaren 720s.

I have bought all of my M3/4 to serve the dual duty of daily driver and track toy. I do 20+ track days a year. The M3/4 may not be the best track car, but it surely is the bloody best compromise. And judging by the amount of M3/4 I see at track days, I am not the only one to believe so. But I could not care less about launching from a dig and M3/4 have never been about drag racing. Acceleration from a roll is what matters on track. And 300-500 extra lb has a significant impact on track performance.
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      11-20-2020, 06:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
When did I refer to track? I clearly listed quarter-mile times after saying 500lb is negligible.

I disagree. F80 is an out-of-the-box 11-second car in the quarter-mile- not too far behind a stock GTR.
When folks say “track” ready, most mean for a road course, as this what the M3/4 has been about since inception with the E30. The M3 has never been about drag racing.
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      11-20-2020, 06:50 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Put yourself in the head of a car collector in 25 years - will DCT/heads up display/electronics matter? People collect cars for the driving experience, and a manual transmission provides an engaging driving experience. Imagine you have 10 cars in your garage, and it's 6am on a Sunday - which keys do you pick up? You know if you want performance you have the 2045 all-electric Porsche GT3.

That's why I went with 6MT, cloth seats, not even a backup camera. Even a backup camera doesn't matter in 25 years Collectors want unique experiences, I don't think 6 speed, cloth seat german sedans are being made anymore.
There is an inference in your post that what folks enjoy today isn’t what they will enjoy in the future. Many actually enjoy their dct and heated seats. I for one can tell you this ass will love the warmth as long as those seats keep giving, and my grin could be toothless and I’d gum it up for a hard dct shift at 7k. Collectors looking for experience will still be human and enjoy them what we enjoy now.
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      11-20-2020, 10:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
When folks say “track” ready, most mean for a road course, as this what the M3/4 has been about since inception with the E30. The M3 has never been about drag racing.
agreed - but social media will have you think otherwise with all the launch and drag videos. No videos show people dragging cars the old fashion way with a clutch and gas pedal anymore.
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      11-20-2020, 10:17 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Put yourself in the head of a car collector in 25 years - will DCT/heads up display/electronics matter? People collect cars for the driving experience, and a manual transmission provides an engaging driving experience. Imagine you have 10 cars in your garage, and it's 6am on a Sunday - which keys do you pick up? You know if you want performance you have the 2045 all-electric Porsche GT3.

That's why I went with 6MT, cloth seats, not even a backup camera. Even a backup camera doesn't matter in 25 years Collectors want unique experiences, I don't think 6 speed, cloth seat german sedans are being made anymore.
Your post is purely opinionated..... All people value options differently. I for one think the HUD adds to the overall driving experience and feel the cloth seats are very cheap looking, hence I wouldn't put much value on them....

Also, 25 years from now, the majority of cars will be fully autonomous, so who knows what will even happen to current cars of our generation.

Some "collector's" may very well look at your car as a cheap version missing much of what brings together the full package of an F8X
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      11-20-2020, 03:44 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trendy26 View Post
Your post is purely opinionated..... All people value options differently. I for one think the HUD adds to the overall driving experience and feel the cloth seats are very cheap looking, hence I wouldn't put much value on them....

Also, 25 years from now, the majority of cars will be fully autonomous, so who knows what will even happen to current cars of our generation.

Some "collector's" may very well look at your car as a cheap version missing much of what brings together the full package of an F8X
There's a reason why cloth and lack of technology is highly preferred in collecting - the materials have to last 50+ years, leather doesn't hold up and collectors want unrestored. This is on top of the fact that the original M3 had speed cloth. In 25+ years we'll be using a brain interface like Neuralink, I don't think the HUD will be impressive (which would likely be broken by then). Complicated electronics don't last decades - do you think car collectors want to collect computers?

Even if everyone has autonomous cars, there is always a market for vintage. Gas cars being banned just means new cars can't use gas, not old - same with non-autonomous being banned.

EDIT: And look - I didn't buy my M3 to collect it, but if I was collecting cars I would want cloth, 6MT, iconic cars.

Last edited by _robert_; 11-20-2020 at 03:50 PM..
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      11-20-2020, 04:06 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
500 weight gain is negligible.
really

Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
There's a reason why cloth and lack of technology is highly preferred in collecting - the materials have to last 50+ years, leather doesn't hold up and collectors want unrestored. This is on top of the fact that the original M3 had speed cloth. In 25+ years we'll be using a brain interface like Neuralink, I don't think the HUD will be impressive (which would likely be broken by then). Complicated electronics don't last decades - do you think car collectors want to collect computers?

Even if everyone has autonomous cars, there is always a market for vintage. Gas cars being banned just means new cars can't use gas, not old - same with non-autonomous being banned.

EDIT: And look - I didn't buy my M3 to collect it, but if I was collecting cars I would want cloth, 6MT, iconic cars.
They made 35k F80 M3s. Imo, it will never be collectible. Also, I don't see how cloth seats are desirable now or in the future. I just sold a 3.2 Carrera that was 35 years old, the leather was perfect.
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      11-20-2020, 04:13 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by 786 View Post
really



They made 35k F80 M3s. Imo, it will never be collectible. Also, I don't see how cloth seats are desirable now or in the future. I just sold a 3.2 Carrera that was 35 years old, the leather was perfect.
Note that there are only 5.4k manual - if they would be desirable I only believe these will be collectible, the others will be as collectable as an automatic Toyota Supra. On the topic of 911s, would you personally collect a PDK or manual? You can already see the price differential in this market (e.g. 991 GT3s).

EDIT: We can already see 6MT commanding a heavy premium as of today: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1697985

Last edited by _robert_; 11-20-2020 at 04:25 PM..
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      11-20-2020, 04:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Note that there are only 5.4k manual - if they would be desirable I only believe these will be collectible, the others will be as collectable as an automatic Toyota Supra. On the topic of 911s, would you personally collect a PDK or manual? You can already see the price differential in this market (e.g. 991 GT3s).

EDIT: We can already see 6MT commanding a heavy premium as of today: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1697985
Pack it up boys, this guy knows the future!

man the manual fanboys are out in full force in this tread
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      11-20-2020, 05:16 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 786 View Post
really



They made 35k F80 M3s. Imo, it will never be collectible. Also, I don't see how cloth seats are desirable now or in the future. I just sold a 3.2 Carrera that was 35 years old, the leather was perfect.
Note that there are only 5.4k manual - if they would be desirable I only believe these will be collectible, the others will be as collectable as an automatic Toyota Supra. On the topic of 911s, would you personally collect a PDK or manual? You can already see the price differential in this market (e.g. 991 GT3s).

EDIT: We can already see 6MT commanding a heavy premium as of today: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1697985
You have wayyy too much time on your hands! Although I do commend your analysis.

Years down the road, the two letters "CS" will command much more of a premium than a Manual "Regular" Competition model. It's all about limited production of which 5,400 Manual units is not limited in the least bit.

I myself am a fan of manual transmissions, as it's all I ever drove until I got the CS. After having the CS, I'll never go back to a regular M4. I did have a '17 M4 Manual, and it just doesn't compare to the CS in any kind of way....

Cars like old school Acura Integra Type R and Acura NSX are collectible cars. The Base and Competition F8X's will never reach that level of collectibility. EVER!
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      11-20-2020, 06:09 PM   #61
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You have wayyy too much time on your hands! Although I do commend your analysis.

Years down the road, the two letters "CS" will command much more of a premium than a Manual "Regular" Competition model. It's all about limited production of which 5,400 Manual units is not limited in the least bit.

I myself am a fan of manual transmissions, as it's all I ever drove until I got the CS. After having the CS, I'll never go back to a regular M4. I did have a '17 M4 Manual, and it just doesn't compare to the CS in any kind of way....

Cars like old school Acura Integra Type R and Acura NSX are collectible cars. The Base and Competition F8X's will never reach that level of collectibility. EVER!
As everything in life, time will tell M3s will always be the underdog in collecting, even as a CS or GTS - compared to Porsche GT3s or other hot cars. You could tell when they can't move the car at MSRP. If I had the money I would be buying Porsche as a collector, or identify under-appreciated vintage. And yes, I have a lot of time at 25

Just curious, how is everyones M3CS or M4 doing on depreciation? So far my 6MT M3 depreciated 17% after 27,000 miles and 3 years of ownership.
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      11-20-2020, 06:23 PM   #62
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The first question is whether ANY F80 will be collectible. If yes, the CS is the best F80 there is. I own an F80 and the CS I have driven is simply better. If someone wants a manual (I probably will!), there are better manuals out there. In my view, a manual transmission paired with a NA engine has the best shot of being collectible.
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      11-20-2020, 06:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Note that there are only 5.4k manual - if they would be desirable I only believe these will be collectible, the others will be as collectable as an automatic Toyota Supra. On the topic of 911s, would you personally collect a PDK or manual? You can already see the price differential in this market (e.g. 991 GT3s).

EDIT: We can already see 6MT commanding a heavy premium as of today: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1697985
Even 5,400 is a lot of cars. Not collectible imo. BMW’s manual is not especially nice to drive either so no real reason to assume that alone ensures collectibility or even desirability in the future.

911s are a good example. The 911R was thought to be uber collectible (some cars even changing hands for 7 figures), until the 991.2 GT3/Touring came out with a manual and values on the R came back down to earth. So even the manual couldn’t save it, it all boils down to production numbers, significance and driving experience. The R will always be valuable for the total package it represents, meaning it’s not simply a regular production model with a manual, but because you can more cheaply replicate that driving experience by purchasing a manual 991.2 GT3/Touring it will never be as valuable as it once was. Also, Porsche manual GT cars are extremely fun to drive so that can help buoy values to a certain extent as well. Your GT3 example (997 vs 991 value) is more to do with the Mezger motor than the manual on the earlier car. You can get a manual on GT3s again so it’s not really an issue. Porschephiles have a really strong affinity to the Mezger engined cars.
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      11-20-2020, 09:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _robert_ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by trendy26 View Post
You have wayyy too much time on your hands! Although I do commend your analysis.

Years down the road, the two letters "CS" will command much more of a premium than a Manual "Regular" Competition model. It's all about limited production of which 5,400 Manual units is not limited in the least bit.

I myself am a fan of manual transmissions, as it's all I ever drove until I got the CS. After having the CS, I'll never go back to a regular M4. I did have a '17 M4 Manual, and it just doesn't compare to the CS in any kind of way....

Cars like old school Acura Integra Type R and Acura NSX are collectible cars. The Base and Competition F8X's will never reach that level of collectibility. EVER!
As everything in life, time will tell M3s will always be the underdog in collecting, even as a CS or GTS - compared to Porsche GT3s or other hot cars. You could tell when they can't move the car at MSRP. If I had the money I would be buying Porsche as a collector, or identify under-appreciated vintage. And yes, I have a lot of time at 25

Just curious, how is everyones M3CS or M4 doing on depreciation? So far my 6MT M3 depreciated 17% after 27,000 miles and 3 years of ownership.
Were the CS's overpriced? Yes indeed. Yet what you have to realize is that the majority of us got roughly $30K off MSRP, or rather similar to what a lot were paying for their Competition Model. So putting it apples to apples, the CS owners already absorbed the majority of the depreciation the day they purchased the car. I can tell you that the CS on Average will sell for atleast $10-15K more in the used market. That, and with how limited they are, the disparity in value between a CS and Competition Model will continue to grow as the cars age.

Sorry bud, the CS was the much better buy in this case. Enjoy your cloth seats!
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      11-20-2020, 09:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
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Were the CS's overpriced? Yes indeed. Yet what you have to realize is that the majority of us got roughly $30K off MSRP, or rather similar to what a lot were paying for their Competition Model. So putting it apples to apples, the CS owners already absorbed the majority of the depreciation the day they purchased the car. I can tell you that the CS on Average will sell for atleast $10-15K more in the used market. That, and with how limited they are, the disparity in value between a CS and Competition Model will continue to grow as the cars age.

Sorry bud, the CS was the much better buy in this case. Enjoy your cloth seats!
I know everyone got a discount MSRP, I'm referring to M3CS/M4 owners final purchase price to the KBB market value today - cars still depreciate. Do you have a number for your M4? Mine depreciated 6%/year - how did yours go, or is it a lease?

For me: Purchase Price on my 2017 6MT M3 - $55k at 1.3k miles, currently KBB $45k at 27k miles 3 years later
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      11-20-2020, 09:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trendy26 View Post
Were the CS's overpriced? Yes indeed. Yet what you have to realize is that the majority of us got roughly $30K off MSRP, or rather similar to what a lot were paying for their Competition Model. So putting it apples to apples, the CS owners already absorbed the majority of the depreciation the day they purchased the car. I can tell you that the CS on Average will sell for atleast $10-15K more in the used market. That, and with how limited they are, the disparity in value between a CS and Competition Model will continue to grow as the cars age.

Sorry bud, the CS was the much better buy in this case. Enjoy your cloth seats!
I know everyone got a discount MSRP, I'm referring to M3CS/M4 owners final purchase price to the KBB market value today - cars still depreciate. Do you have a number for your M4? Mine depreciated 6%/year - how did yours go, or is it a lease?

For me: Purchase Price on my 2017 6MT M3 - $55k at 1.3k miles, currently KBB $45k at 27k miles 3 years later
I purchased my '17 M4 Manual 6spd brand new for $62K ($77K MSRP), it was leased. Sold it after 1 year for $57K. My payoff was $55K at the time, so pocketed a couple grand from it.

My M4CS I purchased for $77K ($107K MSRP). KBB currently does not show a value on the CS's due to limited market info on them. Edmunds shows trade-in on my car of around $76K (5K miles on the odometer). While having my car serviced the other week, my local BMW dealer offered me $74K if I wanted to sell the car right then and there. Not too bad for having the car for 18 months.....

Also had my buddy who manages a dealership run the auction prices for the CS's, and they've been mid $70K's
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