Blown Engine

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Your situation is far from an edge case, now if you were 720-800 then yeah your an edge case. Sounds to me like injector

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Your situation is far from an edge case, now if you were 720-800 then yeah your an edge case. Sounds to me like injector

That's what we think, it just stuck at the worst moment. The data from the logs I have didn't show any sign of a failing injector otherwise but I've not felt the need to log since it was running so flawlessly with no DME codes. Next time I'll periodically take a log to make sure all is running well.

As far as power I was hitting 690 on the dyno with a bad coil and bad plug when we were first tuning so I am confident in the butt dyno alone it was in the 700s after. I could measurably feel the difference when I got new coils and plugs. Logs also showed that timing wasn't being pulled due to issues with spark. I just never took it back to pay for glory runs because it was running so well.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

That's what we think, it just stuck at the worst moment. The data from the logs I have didn't show any sign of a failing injector otherwise but I've not felt the need to log since it was running so flawlessly with no DME codes. Next time I'll periodically take a log to make sure all is running well.

As far as power I was hitting 690 on the dyno with a bad coil and bad plug when we were first tuning so I am confident in the butt dyno alone it was in the 700s after. I could measurably feel the difference when I got new coils and plugs. Logs also showed that timing wasn't being pulled due to issues with spark. I just never took it back to pay for glory runs because it was running so well.

Yeah then it could be that combined with injector, You should always cycle 91-93 between every 3-4 tanks of E-85. But no point in crying over spilled milk. If you were 720ish then yeah could be an edge case like you say it is. You probably had an injector that stuck open at that power level. When a motor is making that much power theres little grace with an issue like that. A stuck injector on low boost 550-650 you have some leeway and motor prob would have been okay. Over 700 is when small issues can tank a motor

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Yeah then it could be that combined with injector, You should always cycle 91-93 between every 3-4 tanks of E-85. But no point in crying over spilled milk. If you were 720ish then yeah could be an edge case like you say it is. You probably had an injector that stuck open at that power level. When a motor is making that much power theres little grace with an issue like that. A stuck injector on low boost 550-650 you have some leeway and motor prob would have been okay. Over 700 is when small issues can tank a motor

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Yeah then it could be that combined with injector, You should always cycle 91-93 between every 3-4 tanks of E-85. But no point in crying over spilled milk. If you were 720ish then yeah could be an edge case like you say it is. You probably had an injector that stuck open at that power level. When a motor is making that much power theres little grace with an issue like that. A stuck injector on low boost 550-650 you have some leeway and motor prob would have been okay. Over 700 is when small issues can tank a motor

Yeah I would cycle 91 on my FlexFuel tune every 1000 miles (E50 > E30 > and down until it's about 10% ethanol content which is what is in most fuel in my area has). Then I'd run full petrol until almost empty and repeat the cycle. I also added PowerPlus top lube to every single E85 fill just to help with lubricity. This is the exact methodology I applied to the F80. The only real difference between the two vehicles is the environment. The entire ownership of the F80 was in San Francisco. My F82 saw SF for it's first year and has been in SoCal ever since. SF is usually 50-70 degrees all year around. Here in SoCal the temps outside are now in the 50s but summers have been 100+ for months. Not sure how much of an impact that makes on the engine with what it can handle but the climate change has been substantial.

[JAI///M3]

Assuming these were F80 injectors and not EU5…? So failed closed would assume detonation/pre ignition and failed open would mean hydraulocked, right?

Also thanks for posting up your thoughts on the vendors. In case this hasn't crossed your mind yet, I would definitely look into flushing or maybe even replacing oil coolers/hoses to avoid the possibility of re contaminating your new engine

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by JAI///M3

Assuming these were F80 injectors and not EU5…? So failed closed would assume detonation/pre ignition and failed open would mean hydraulocked, right?

Also thanks for posting up your thoughts on the vendors. In case this hasn't crossed your mind yet, I would definitely look into flushing or maybe even replacing oil coolers/hoses to avoid the possibility of re contaminating your new engine

Your guess is as good as mine, will know more when I pull 'em out. Will probably rip the head off this week since I'm a one man show and the weight savings will help me maneuver removing the rest. I have been sitting on a Mishimoto oil cooler (with lines) I just haven't got to, will be installing it when I put it back together.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

Your guess is as good as mine, will know more when I pull 'em out. Will probably rip the head off this week since I'm a one man show and the weight savings will help me maneuver removing the rest. I have been sitting on a Mishimoto oil cooler (with lines) I just haven't got to, will be installing it when I put it back together.

Thats a good point, If you did not upgrade to the M5 injectors and are still running standard m3/4 injectors from factory then they most likely locked up

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

Your guess is as good as mine, will know more when I pull 'em out. Will probably rip the head off this week since I'm a one man show and the weight savings will help me maneuver removing the rest. I have been sitting on a Mishimoto oil cooler (with lines) I just haven't got to, will be installing it when I put it back together.

Do you know which cylinder broke? I have a similar case and I don't think it was an injector issue:








The oil pan also broke, I had to repair it:

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

Do you know which cylinder broke? I have a similar case and I don't think it was an injector issue:








The oil pan also broke, I had to repair it:

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

Do you know which cylinder broke? I have a similar case and I don't think it was an injector issue:

[img]https://i.ibb.co/QfrH8hb/20221107-132321.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.ibb.co/Rj69y6v/20221107-132332.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.ibb.co/3pjj3RD/20221107-113451.jpg[/img]


The oil pan also broke, I had to repair it:

[img]https://i.ibb.co/jbV3sLh/20221107-174913.jpg[/img]

Damn sorry to hear. It was cylinder 1 (assuming that's #1, the closest to the front of the car while facing the engine with the hood open).

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

Damn sorry to hear. It was cylinder 1 (assuming that's #1, the closest to the front of the car while facing the engine with the hood open).

It is correct, number 1, my client's is the same, number 1.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Okay so it has nothing to do with the crankhub or cbc, should probably remove the title before people think it's that. But sorry to hear.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

It is correct, number 1, my client's is the same, number 1.

What was the cause of that damage?

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Okay so it has nothing to do with the crankhub or cbc, should probably remove the title before people think it's that. But sorry to hear.

I changed it because I still need to understand exactly what went wrong and will update the title then. I do still think it's important that people know my engine had both the Crank Hub and CBC installed and even with those safeguards in place, is not immune to this type of damage. The notion of a failed injector causing this destruction didn't come top of mind when it blew.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

What was the cause of that damage?

Poor quality fuel with stage2 tune, according client told me.

I think that if it were an injector problem, it would happen in all s55 engines, as for example happens in the vw 2.0tsi gen2, after tune in 99% of cases the injectors stay open, causing unstable engine work and white smoke with smell of fuel, I have not yet seen any case with engine breakage for this reason, i always change the 4 injectors, because over time the rest break.


When do you plan to disassemble the engine?

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by JAI///M3

Assuming these were F80 injectors and not EU5…? So failed closed would assume detonation/pre ignition and failed open would mean hydraulocked, right?

Thats somewhat right. When they break it can be open, closed or somewhere in between. The rich/lean would depend on how much fuel was leaking and how much fuel was needed at any given moment. Under load the situation usually leans out, and detonation happens… On the other hand you could be stuck a good bit open and run rich in that cylinder. And worst case is you have a bad leaker, leave the key ON for a long time before startup (filling the cylinder with fuel) and hydrolock when you go to Start.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

Poor quality fuel with stage2 tune, according client told me.

I think that if it were an injector problem, it would happen in all s55 engines, as for example happens in the vw 2.0tsi gen2, after tune in 99% of cases the injectors stay open, causing unstable engine work and white smoke with smell of fuel, I have not yet seen any case with engine breakage for this reason, i always change the 4 injectors, because over time the rest break.


When do you plan to disassemble the engine?

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

Poor quality fuel with stage2 tune, according client told me.

I think that if it were an injector problem, it would happen in all s55 engines, as for example happens in the vw 2.0tsi gen2, after tune in 99% of cases the injectors stay open, causing unstable engine work and white smoke with smell of fuel, I have not yet seen any case with engine breakage for this reason, i always change the 4 injectors, because over time the rest break.


When do you plan to disassemble the engine?

As soon as I can. I've never done it before but since it's shot I don't have too many concerns with breaking anything. Hoping to maybe find someone that has some free time to come by and lend a hand.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Thats somewhat right. When they break it can be open, closed or somewhere in between. The rich/lean would depend on how much fuel was leaking and how much fuel was needed at any given moment. Under load the situation usually leans out, and detonation happens… On the other hand you could be stuck a good bit open and run rich in that cylinder. And worst case is you have a bad leaker, leave the key ON for a long time before startup (filling the cylinder with fuel) and hydrolock when you go to Start.

So how do you test if your injector is on its way out? whats the easiest way to catch it before it happens?

[JAI///M3]

I'm curious of this too. In my mind it almost makes sense to go EU5 injectors if you're planning full E85. Seems it would help keep system pressures and IDC in check. I know it might seem like overkill since there are many people out there running full E without catastrophic failures. But the preventative cost seems worth it compared to the cost of being that one unlucky guy.

As for trying to figure out if that's what has happened after a failure, I suppose if the suspect injector is not damaged it could be bench tested. If the injector is stuck closed I would assume a lean condition causing the boom. If the injector checks out good then one theory could be low quality gas low AKI and detonation/pre ignition being probable.

If the injector is damaged beyond bench testing then I suppose it's anyone's guess. But judging by the amount of damage caused as seen in both examples here (especially given the moderate-high power levels) it sure does suggest pre ignition under load is highly likely to my untrained eye.

Understand data logs are not available. Is it possible to see what the tunes are set for on knock retard? Maybe some clues there.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by JAI///M3

I'm curious of this too. In my mind it almost makes sense to go EU5 injectors if you're planning full E85. Seems it would help keep system pressures and IDC in check. I know it might seem like overkill since there are many people out there running full E without catastrophic failures. But the preventative cost seems worth it compared to the cost of being that one unlucky guy.

As for trying to figure out if that's what has happened after a failure, I suppose if the suspect injector is not damaged it could be bench tested. If the injector is stuck closed I would assume a lean condition causing the boom. If the injector checks out good then one theory could be low quality gas low AKI and detonation/pre ignition being probable.

If the injector is damaged beyond bench testing then I suppose it's anyone's guess. But judging by the amount of damage caused as seen in both examples here (especially given the moderate-high power levels) it sure does suggest pre ignition under load is highly likely to my untrained eye.

Understand data logs are not available. Is it possible to see what the tunes are set for on knock retard? Maybe some clues there.

That's a interesting thought. My thought is it would just go into limp mode if it had to adapt/retard timing to that extent unless it just happened so quickly it couldn't adapt fast enough. Monday I'll start tearing it apart and sharing my findings.

[TractionControlDelete]

Originally Posted by Corn Mode

As soon as I can. I've never done it before but since it's shot I don't have too many concerns with breaking anything. Hoping to maybe find someone that has some free time to come by and lend a hand.

I see you said you go between SF and LA… to the extent that you're in SF or the Bay Area then I'll be back in CA on Monday and can help you to break it down. Let me know then we can coordinate…

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by TractionControlDelete

I see you said you go between SF and LA… to the extent that you're in SF or the Bay Area then I'll be back in CA on Monday and can help you to break it down. Let me know then we can coordinate…

Originally Posted by TractionControlDelete

I see you said you go between SF and LA… to the extent that you're in SF or the Bay Area then I'll be back in CA on Monday and can help you to break it down. Let me know then we can coordinate…

I'm stuck in SoCal with it here or I'd definitely take you up on that.

[papasmurf_m3]

First off Sorry to hear this happened to you.

injector failure would result in the car eating a plug and causing damage to the piston and cyl wall.

Looks like the tune was indeed too spicy and you may have more likely bent a rod slightly. Still driveable for many miles and it finally gave out during a pull.

Speculation but, the plug looks intact. Injector failing would cause thermal meltdown and loss of compression. Extreme case maybe broke the piston and got caught in the rotating assembly and window the block.

Or rod knock and it finally let go during a pull. So many things.

I hope you get your car sorted.

You can send your injectors to RC engineering and have them checked out. That will eliminate that possibility or give you more data points.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

First off Sorry to hear this happened to you.

injector failure would result in the car eating a plug and causing damage to the piston and cyl wall.

Looks like the tune was indeed too spicy and you may have more likely bent a rod slightly. Still driveable for many miles and it finally gave out during a pull.

Speculation but, the plug looks intact. Injector failing would cause thermal meltdown and loss of compression. Extreme case maybe broke the piston and got caught in the rotating assembly and window the block.

Or rod knock and it finally let go during a pull. So many things.

I hope you get your car sorted.

You can send your injectors to RC engineering and have them checked out. That will eliminate that possibility or give you more data points.

Thanks I will definitely get these injectors checked out to determine if that was the point of failure because if a bad injector can cause all this, everyone needs to know.

A slightly bent rod that finally gave out is a scary thought because I'd expect a bent rod to cause the piston to thrust in a way that would cause unwanted wear to a cylinder wall or even oil leak or a rougher idle and I had none of that. My car ran so smooth and strong until doomsday. We'll know very soon. I appreciate the feedback.