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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ?
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable 93 46.04%
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine 109 53.96%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-24-2013, 01:53 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The acceleration times from 0-40km/h and 0-60km/h in post #164 also seem over-optimistic for the F8X. It would mean average acceleration of 1.5g and 1.25g respectively. I am not sure street tires would support this on a RWD car.

Could this be explained by some sort of roll-out?
Rollout has nothing to do with graph based outputs from CarTest, again rollout is just "bookkeeping" used for tabular data. Rollout simply starts all timers when the car has traveled 1'. I agree that the acceleration numbers are large and impressive and only possible through both weight transfer and good tires. I have not modified the tire parameters compared to any of the other sims I've presented.

Comparing the times to speed from CarTest for the F10 M5 vs. Fastestlaps (last table) does indicate some pretty substantial overprediction of the very initial (1st gear) acceleration by CarTest (0-40 km/hr results). Here I have disabled the 1 foot rollout, using 0 feet (more in keeping with the way anyone reporting km/hr figures would most likely be testing).

The second set of results in US customary units turns the 1' rollout back on and shows a much better correspondence with most test results. Perfect nope, a bit slow on the 1/4 trap, a bit quick on the time. Of course bear in mind this is just one data set, and it is typical for CarTest to more calculate a best possible sort of time. Also note I have used 580 hp and 520 ft lb torque, substantially underrated and loosely consistent with dyno and actual test results (esp for a car this heavy).

Some quick changes with the tire parameters in CarTest did not effectively lower the peak acceleration in first gear (puzzling - it is as if the simulation is using a fixed friction coefficient during the case of spinning tires which is also inaccessible to the user). I'm open to suggestions for improvements. Heck buy the tool yourself, it is inexpensive and the author offers basic email tech support. Good support for the basics but unwilling or unable to dive as deep as you and I have in some discussions (like losses).

Simulation certainly ain't perfect but it does always beg the (hopefully) obvious question as to what THE test based time is for any metric. There is no one "correct" single time.
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      12-24-2013, 05:13 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Although I certainly appreciate (understatement) both the character of and engineering excellence required to bring about high redline, flat torque, high specific output engines, specific output arguments fall almost completely flat in the real world. What are the specific advantages for the customer outside of character?

Maybe the advantage is fuel efficiency? Oops the giant 7l engine trounces the S65 (perhaps through shifting trickery and/or cylinder deactivation - not something inherent to the pushrod design nor displacement). I suppose there is the argument about taxes when based on displacement but for us in NA that too is irrelevant. Other advantages of the pushrod engine are a lower center of gravity and less weight (not sure about the actual 7l Z06 vs. 4l S65, but at a given displacement there will certainly be a weight advantage). Pushrod engines also offer a lower cost (again at fixed displacement for sure, otherwise maybe not for sure).

The Z06 and M3 clearly represent a different philosophy and approach. Each has advantages and disadvantages but specific output remains largely something of academic interest (or certainly for racing when displacement limits exist).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i think you are messing what makes the Z06 engine so great (LS7 engine). all those other European engines are maxed out from factory. those GM LS engines have a insane amount of power to be gain n/a. not to mention the engine is way easier to work on or fix. the engine is not high strung like a BMW S65. its a very reliable setup. the engine does not work hard for its power, where the S65 does. if that makes sense . that LS7 engine is a loved engine here in the US. people love modding the crap out of them.

i think LS7s are pretty cool engines, although you don't see me driving one. i find European engines like the S65 to have more "style" to them. which i like. but i still do respect and understand why the Zo6 has a huge engine.
I appreciate both of your statements and "affection" for a big pushrod V8 engine. That's why I said "as a European I...". To me it's kinda like NASCAR vs F1. Both offer racing and sound etc. But I much prefer the high strung pitch and tech of a F1 engine over a "lazy" pushrod V8 (I know that some of the tech in NASCAR actually is pretty high end, like piston speeds close to F1 engines). It's not that I don't respect US V8 engines, but I prefer the Ford V8's over the Chevrolet V8, because it actually seems to have evolved more since 1955

Stuff like VVT is also something of a tradeoff with a single cam in block engine. GM decided to go the easiest route that gave 80% of the benefit at low cost (no "cam in cam" tech as far as I understand).

Even though the 6,2 GM V8 is using modern tech, like cylinder cut off and DI, to save fuel. It still will pretty much be considered pretty low tech and dinosaur with it's pushrod engine over here in Europe. It goes like stink and get's respect for that though Even German Magazines has declared the C7 a winner in a 911 vs C7 test...

It has accessible power, unlike the S65 (don't get me wrong here ). But just like the S55... So anyone that appreciates the useable powerband of the Corvette engine, should also appreciate the S55 for it's power

So, yes I appreciate the power of the Corvette engine. But my comment was with regards to a "mystique" surrounding that engine. Yes it has plenty of power, but it's not a engine that pushes the envelope in any way or creates a mystique (IMHO), like a Ferrari V8/V12 or the S65/S85 etc.

Even the S55, even though it will be a great engine (I hope), will have a hard time creating the same "mystique" that the high revving S65 and S85 has done.

Last edited by Boss330; 12-24-2013 at 05:22 PM..
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      12-24-2013, 05:56 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I appreciate both of your statements and "affection" for a big pushrod V8 engine. That's why I said "as a European I...". To me it's kinda like NASCAR vs F1. Both offer racing and sound etc. But I much prefer the high strung pitch and tech of a F1 engine over a "lazy" pushrod V8 (I know that some of the tech in NASCAR actually is pretty high end, like piston speeds close to F1 engines). It's not that I don't respect US V8 engines, but I prefer the Ford V8's over the Chevrolet V8, because it actually seems to have evolved more since 1955

Stuff like VVT is also something of a tradeoff with a single cam in block engine. GM decided to go the easiest route that gave 80% of the benefit at low cost (no "cam in cam" tech as far as I understand).

Even though the 6,2 GM V8 is using modern tech, like cylinder cut off and DI, to save fuel. It still will pretty much be considered pretty low tech and dinosaur with it's pushrod engine over here in Europe. It goes like stink and get's respect for that though Even German Magazines has declared the C7 a winner in a 911 vs C7 test...

It has accessible power, unlike the S65 (don't get me wrong here ). But just like the S55... So anyone that appreciates the useable powerband of the Corvette engine, should also appreciate the S55 for it's power

So, yes I appreciate the power of the Corvette engine. But my comment was with regards to a "mystique" surrounding that engine. Yes it has plenty of power, but it's not a engine that pushes the envelope in any way or creates a mystique (IMHO), like a Ferrari V8/V12 or the S65/S85 etc.

Even the S55, even though it will be a great engine (I hope), will have a hard time creating the same "mystique" that the high revving S65 and S85 has done.
Well, Formula 1 is going to 1.6 liter, V6 Turbo next year.

IMO, "high-revving" only means easier to modulate throttle/power.
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      12-24-2013, 07:41 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Well, Formula 1 is going to 1.6 liter, V6 Turbo next year.

IMO, "high-revving" only means easier to modulate throttle/power.
Next years F1 engines will still rev to 15.000rpm, down from 18.000. Still a small displacement high rpm engine!

I don't see why high revving should equal easier to modulate throttle/power? Is the LT1 and LS7 engine in the C6/C7 difficult to modulate throttle/power on??? Or any other engine that has a redline at a lower rpm?

High rpm is needed to make sufficient power from a smaller displacement engine, it's not like Ferrari or Porsche chose a 9000rpm redline just so the driver should be able to better modulate the throttle/power... They did it in order to be able to extract the kind of power they do from small displacement engines (relative to the LS7 engine which has less power from 6,2l). Remember that a engines power is made from combustion. To make more power you either need more combustions, or a "larger" combustion. Go large displacement (or turbocharge) and you get that "large" combustion and make more power. If you keep the displacement low, you simply need more combustions to make more power. How can you make more combustions? You have to increase rpm so that you can "squeeze in" more combustions per minute!!!

A turbo engine will normally be more difficult to modulate throttle input and power output from (due to turbo lag). That is one of the issues the S55 supposedly has been able to eliminate (more or less).

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      12-24-2013, 07:57 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I appreciate both of your statements and "affection" for a big pushrod V8 engine. That's why I said "as a European I...". To me it's kinda like NASCAR vs F1. Both offer racing and sound etc. But I much prefer the high strung pitch and tech of a F1 engine over a "lazy" pushrod V8 (I know that some of the tech in NASCAR actually is pretty high end, like piston speeds close to F1 engines). It's not that I don't respect US V8 engines, but I prefer the Ford V8's over the Chevrolet V8, because it actually seems to have evolved more since 1955

Stuff like VVT is also something of a tradeoff with a single cam in block engine. GM decided to go the easiest route that gave 80% of the benefit at low cost (no "cam in cam" tech as far as I understand).

Even though the 6,2 GM V8 is using modern tech, like cylinder cut off and DI, to save fuel. It still will pretty much be considered pretty low tech and dinosaur with it's pushrod engine over here in Europe. It goes like stink and get's respect for that though Even German Magazines has declared the C7 a winner in a 911 vs C7 test...

It has accessible power, unlike the S65 (don't get me wrong here ). But just like the S55... So anyone that appreciates the useable powerband of the Corvette engine, should also appreciate the S55 for it's power

So, yes I appreciate the power of the Corvette engine. But my comment was with regards to a "mystique" surrounding that engine. Yes it has plenty of power, but it's not a engine that pushes the envelope in any way or creates a mystique (IMHO), like a Ferrari V8/V12 or the S65/S85 etc.

Even the S55, even though it will be a great engine (I hope), will have a hard time creating the same "mystique" that the high revving S65 and S85 has done.
like i said, i drive a M3 not a corvette. so that says something. But i do see why people would like the push rod V8s. they make great power and actually get decent MPG if put in a sports car.

i quoted you and made that comment because you were acting like big V8 motors are not making the power per liter. coming off like European engines are just better or something. really anything that BMW does GM CAN do. (goes both ways). there is no secret to engine building. its simply the style of motor. some like big non stressed V8 motors, some like the high tec motors. i wouldn't say one is better than the other.
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      12-25-2013, 03:30 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
like i said, i drive a M3 not a corvette. so that says something. But i do see why people would like the push rod V8s. they make great power and actually get decent MPG if put in a sports car.

i quoted you and made that comment because you were acting like big V8 motors are not making the power per liter. coming off like European engines are just better or something. really anything that BMW does GM CAN do. (goes both ways). there is no secret to engine building. its simply the style of motor. some like big non stressed V8 motors, some like the high tec motors. i wouldn't say one is better than the other.
I wasn't trying to imply that Euro engines are "better" than US. Then we first would have to agree on a universal definition of what is a "better" engine. In many applications a low stressed V8 is better than a high rpm V8. Don't see room for a S65 or Ferrari V8 in a pickup In that application a traditional US V8 does the job way better. And culturally and historically that's probably what suits the Vette better as well. But I prefer what Ford does because they combine large(ish) displacement with modern tech. Showing that one doesn't exclude the other.

And in my example above with the pickup truck engine lies the "problem" for me with attaching any kind of "mystique" or exoticness to the Chevrolet V8. It's a engine which is not only related to the same engine you find in a pickup truck, but it still keeps that low specific output low rpm character. Don't get me wrong it's a VERY powerful engine and credit to GM for making it!

But Ford's SOHC 6,2l V8 for the F150 makes 411hp and 434lb.ft, only 49hp and 26lb.ft down on the 460/460 numbers of the 6,2l LT1 engine in the C7. So Ford makes a short stroke, SOHC 6,2l V8 that has nearly the same power as the C7 engine, only it's for a pickup truck... That 6,2l pickup engine would be a 464hp engine in a 7l configuration, only 41hp down on the LS7 engine. And that would still be a engine in a pickup state of tune (it would only need an additional 6hp/l to be at a LS7 power level)... To me that puts a perspective on the LT1 and LS7 engines degree of development over a competitors pickup engine... And probably also shows the benefits of Ford's more modern engine architecture with SOHC and DOHC engines.

And instead of just putting that big 6,2l V8 in the Mustang they make a 444hp@7400rpm 5l DOHC V8, which is only 16hp down on the 6,2l LT1 engine in the C7. Probably once more showing that Ford has a engine architecture that allows them to play around with different ways of achieving power, they don't have to go large displacement.

So as you can see, I'm a big fan of the Ford V8 engines Not so much the old school GM engines...

Last edited by Boss330; 12-25-2013 at 07:54 AM..
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      12-25-2013, 04:46 AM   #249
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Thanks Swamp for those magnificent numbers you show us all here.

I`m not that good in fysics, but I do love how things come together
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      12-25-2013, 04:02 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I appreciate both of your statements and "affection" for a big pushrod V8 engine.
...
Even German Magazines has declared the C7 a winner in a 911 vs C7 test...
...
Even the S55, even though it will be a great engine (I hope), will have a hard time creating the same "mystique" that the high revving S65 and S85 has done.
Affection is a reasonable word choice and your use of the quote is right on. Begrudging respect is probably a bit more accurate.

Very interesting and surprising about the German magazines, hats off to those folks for being very open minded.

Mystique indeed!
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      12-25-2013, 04:08 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i think you are messing what makes the Z06 engine so great (LS7 engine). all those other European engines are maxed out from factory. those GM LS engines have a insane amount of power to be gain n/a.
Not so quick...

One can easily get to the 460 hp range with simple bolt ons and software in the S65. I think some have dynoed at 400 rwhp (probably with 15% correction). That can get to 800 crank hp with FI. There has been some demonstrations of quite impressive reliability at those power levels. What can a Z06 get to with simple bolt ons and software, I have no idea as I don't follow that "scene"? I'm sure they can get to 1000 hp with turbo charging.
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      12-25-2013, 04:25 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Affection is a reasonable word choice and your use of the quote is right on. Begrudging respect is probably a bit more accurate.

Very interesting and surprising about the German magazines, hats off to those folks for being very open minded.

Mystique indeed!
In Sport Auto issue 12/2013 the C7 beats the 911 Carrera S and Jag XKR-S. The C7 scores 57 of 60, the 911 scores 52 and the XKR-S scores 48 points. Notable contenders have scored as follows (listed in the article):

GT-R 57 points
ViperSRT 56 points
C6 GS 54 points
R8 V10 plus 53 points
M6 51 points
SLS AMG 51 points

The front page reads in large fonts:

"The New Porsche Killer! Corvette C7"
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      12-25-2013, 05:28 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Not so quick...

One can easily get to the 460 hp range with simple bolt ons and software in the S65. I think some have dynoed at 400 rwhp (probably with 15% correction). That can get to 800 crank hp with FI. There has been some demonstrations of quite impressive reliability at those power levels. What can a Z06 get to with simple bolt ons and software, I have no idea as I don't follow that "scene"? I'm sure they can get to 1000 hp with turbo charging.
the S65 is limited to intake and exhaust bolt ons. while you can do a stroker kit it cost a lot of money.

a LS engine. you can do full exhaust, intake, heads and a cam all done at a much cheaper price. also you can even work on the car your self. with the mods i listed you can gain 100WHP over stock without doing any FI mods. all n/a and will cost under 10 grand. you also could do a stroker kit for the z06

my whole thing was about N/A, i wasn't talking about FI.
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      12-25-2013, 05:55 PM   #254
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Quote:
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thats why i hate the new direction. its like the M cars had "pure" engines. now i see all these people coming here talking about tunes and downpipes ETC. things you hear over on the Japanese forums. which ya it not a bad thing, i am sure i would love to drive a tuned GTR. but i always pictured BMW not has a tuner brand. now that every BMW is small turbo engine car, it losses it appeal for me.

guess the times are a changin hahah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
of course not.

its just seems like everyone is now "tune happy" when talking about the M4. i am on the E92 m3 section of this forum. while people tune and mod there m3s. it was never the selling point of the car. nor when the e92 came out. people were not talking about tuning. same with E46.

its just different now.

(putting aside looks )
like if someone asked you whats better on the F80 over the E90. you would say its faster and you can gain a lot of power with a tune.

if you were to compared E46. you would say you get a highER revving motor with more power stock. no tune talking.

BMW is becoming a tuner brand more than ever. like people here would be upset if there was no room to gain power with a tune..... thats something a E92 or E46 owner never say. because the cars are not tuner cars... nor gain a lot with just a tune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i feel way better when people like you post. my whole thing about M cars is how great they car. not how much can i get with a tune!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
the C7 is pretty much a updated LS3 engine. GM V8 cars are kind of boring if you ask me. slow revving motors, with a 6200RPM redline. sure the power is there though. if thats all you care about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
the S65 is limited to intake and exhaust bolt ons. while you can do a stroker kit it cost a lot of money.

a LS engine. you can do full exhaust, intake, heads and a cam all done at a much cheaper price. also you can even work on the car your self. with the mods i listed you can gain 100WHP over stock without doing any FI mods. all n/a and will cost under 10 grand. you also could do a stroker kit for the z06

my whole thing was about N/A, i wasn't talking about FI.
Somehow your previous comments on tuning and the GM V8 contradicts your latest statements...

Like you just had some comments on how you didn't like the direction BMW had taken with "everyone" talking about the tuneability of their new engines? Now the lack of tuneability is a problem with the S65 and a bonus with the LT1/LS7
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      12-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #255
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Somehow your previous comments on tuning and the GM V8 contradicts your latest statements...

Like you just had some comments on how you didn't like the direction BMW had taken with "everyone" talking about the tuneability of their new engines? Now the lack of tuneability is a problem with the S65 and a bonus with the LT1/LS7
i said the S65 is "limited". did i say it was a problem ? is my S65 tuned? no.
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      12-25-2013, 06:35 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i think you are messing what makes the Z06 engine so great (LS7 engine). all those other European engines are maxed out from factory. those GM LS engines have a insane amount of power to be gain n/a. not to mention the engine is way easier to work on or fix. the engine is not high strung like a BMW S65. its a very reliable setup. the engine does not work hard for its power, where the S65 does. if that makes sense . that LS7 engine is a loved engine here in the US. people love modding the crap out of them.

i think LS7s are pretty cool engines, although you don't see me driving one. i find European engines like the S65 to have more "style" to them. which i like. but i still do respect and understand why the Zo6 has a huge engine.
Here you say that what is great about the LS engine is it's tuneability. While on the other hand you hate how people talk about the tuneability of the S55/N55 etc...

If I understand you correctly it's ok (in fact even great) for other brands to be tuneable, but it's not for BMW

In Europe the Tuning industri started with brands like BMW... I remember Alpina versions of 3 and 5 series in the early '80ies being some of the cars we most wanted. And Alpina did some great turbo versions of BMW's I6 engine. Even before the factory 7-series with turbo engines in the '80ies.
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      12-25-2013, 06:48 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Here you say that what is great about the LS engine is it's tuneability. While on the other hand you hate how people talk about the tuneability of the S55/N55 etc...

If I understand you correctly it's ok (in fact even great) for other brands to be tuneable, but it's not for BMW

In Europe the Tuning industri started with brands like BMW...
i always viewed BMW M ( not BMW overall). as a pure sports car, of course the cars do have luxury to them now. meaning people didn't talk about how much power can be gained with a tune. although yes there are many people who are modding the M cars. but it wasn't one of the major points of buying the car. on the forum people are treating the new M4 like a 335i.

there in fact is a thread started right now that both of us posted on. the OP is disappoint if there is no room left on the table to be gained with a tune. whats funny is that every owner i have met with a 335i that is a car guy. has a Jb4 tune. those 335is are "tuner" cars. i have a nothing against modded 335is, in fact i think its a pretty cool car. i know a few people who have them. its just not my cup of tea. i am the kind of guy who would want a V10 R8 over a modded GTR.

also i was talking about LS engines because i was trying to show you that one of the attributes a big V8 has with modding. which is a whole different topic.
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      12-25-2013, 06:59 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i always viewed BMW M ( not BMW overall). as a pure sports car, of course the cars do have luxury to them now. meaning people didn't talk about how much power can be gained with a tune. although yes there are many people who are modding the M cars. but it wasn't one of the major points of buying the car. on the forum people are treating the new M4 like a 335i.

there in fact is a thread started right now that both of us posted on. the OP is disappoint if there is no room left on the table to be gained with a tune. whats funny is that every owner i have met with a 335i that is a car guy. has a Jb4 tune. those 335is are "tuner" cars. i have a nothing against modded 335is, in fact i think its a pretty cool car. i know a few people who have them. its just not my cup of tea. i am the kind of guy who would want a V10 R8 over a modded GTR.

also i was talking about LS engines because i was trying to show you that one of the attributes a big V8 has with modding. which is a whole different topic.
I appreciate your view but I suspect that it's a bit more diverse than how you feel. There are loads of tunes, stroker kits and turbo/supercharger kits for previous gen M cars.... Tuning has allways been part of it. Hartge made M88/S38 engine versions of the E30 M3 etc.
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      12-25-2013, 07:03 PM   #259
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Ezio.....


...They're pulling your cards man. That's the beauty of brevity and the Search function. Contradictions can, and are, usually brought to light.
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      12-25-2013, 07:04 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I appreciate your view but I suspect that it's a bit more diverse than how you feel. There are loads of tunes, stroker kits and turbo/supercharger kits for previous gen M cars.... Tuning has allways been part of it. Hartge made M88/S38 engine versions of the E30 M3 etc.


yes there are. but those kits are very costly. you don't see to many of those M3s around.

where every other STI is tuned it with a downpipe that shoot flames.

if the M4 response well with tunes, lots are going to want 50HP-100 gain with software.
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      12-25-2013, 07:06 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i always viewed BMW M ( not BMW overall). as a pure sports car, of course the cars do have luxury to them now.
Technically speaking, only the Z4M is a sports car. All other BMW M cars are GT cars. They all race in that class too
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      12-25-2013, 07:09 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
If the M4 response well with tunes, lots are going to want 50HP-100 gain with software.
It won't happen during the warranty period, though. Not when BMW has updated all it's service protocols to first include a check for any signs of modification (which includes an ecu query for the now numerous tuner shadow codes), then:

1. Insist that the vehicle should be brought back 100% stock

2. "Flag the vehicle in the warranty system"

Our car was the last straw for BMW. They took a bath in HPFPs. Most from heavily modified cars like mine. They ain't playin' no more.
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      12-25-2013, 07:18 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
It won't happen during the warranty period, though. Not when BMW has updated all it's service protocols to first include a check for any signs of modification (which includes an ecu query for the now numerous tuner shadow codes), then:

1. Insist that the vehicle should be brought back 100% stock

2. "Flag the vehicle in the warranty system"

Our car was the last straw for BMW. They took a bath in HPFPs. Most from heavily modified cars like mine. They ain't playin' no more.
ya i hope thats the case. so it will shut up all these guys talking about how great these new motors are because of tuning.
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      12-25-2013, 07:30 PM   #264
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Just remember guys, my N54 is the best engine in the entire universe. The best ever period! Ok, bye for now, merry christmas!
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