Car and Driver M4cs Test

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Tall Tom Cruise

Maybe your SA stayed in the car while it was on the scale lol

It would’ve been more then.

[CAlexio]

Hello one and all,

my first post here, forum requires to make one post before starting a new thread, so apologies for the off-topic entry I'm making.

I'm about to sign on the dotted line for an M4cs and i have a concern that the weird angle entry for my garage in San Francisco may be too much for this car to handle. I realize this is a massive request, but if anyone has an m4cs (or an m3cs) and lives close to San Francisco, AND would be willing to make the trip to do a garage ground clearance test.. then name your price for your time and we'll make a deal.

thank you,

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by CAlexio

Hello one and all,

my first post here, forum requires to make one post before starting a new thread, so apologies for the off-topic entry I'm making.

I'm about to sign on the dotted line for an M4cs and i have a concern that the weird angle entry for my garage in San Francisco may be too much for this car to handle. I realize this is a massive request, but if anyone has an m4cs (or an m3cs) and lives close to San Francisco, AND would be willing to make the trip to do a garage ground clearance test.. then name your price for your time and we'll make a deal.

thank you,

maybe ask them to measure the lowest point of interest from ground, and then tape something in that size below your front bumper or so to test/simulate it?

edit: nevermind. it only would work if you already have a base m3/m4

[CAlexio]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

maybe ask them to measure the lowest point of interest from ground, and then tape something in that size below your front bumper or so to test/simulate it?

edit: nevermind. it only would work if you already have a base m3/m4

Found someone to come over this Sunday.. that was waaay faster than expected. Fingers crossed it gets in, would love to purchase this car, great daily and occasional fun machine.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by CAlexio

Found someone to come over this Sunday.. that was waaay faster than expected. Fingers crossed it gets in, would love to purchase this car, great daily and occasional fun machine.

Good luck!

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by drgmt

More gears isn't always better.

The Alfa quadrifoglio is a great car but having driven it the ZF falls short of our DCT. The m140i is a great car but having driven it the ZF falls short of our DCT.

Falls short how ? - the ZF is smoother in daily driving but thats not why I want an M car. It's an automatic. In manual mode our f80 DCT shifts when we want it. It's kind of a like a manual box with paddle shifters. And I love that. Sure it's abit clunky at times but I think that could have been improved by bmw (other dct makers have smoother shifts in their dct).

Looks like this M4CS is a keeper !

I don't understand your logic. You are saying that the ZF falls short because it is an 'auto' and is smoother? And the DCT isn't an auto because it doesn't shift when in manual mode? Well that's just programming by the manufacturer for both the DCT and ZF. The ZF in my former F85 X5M wouldn't shift on its own if the trans was in sport plus. Clearly that's how BMW wants their auto transmissions to act. The ZF in the X5M also doesn't creep when you let off the brake. It stays disengaged until you hit the gas pedal. It too behaves kinda like a manual box...which is programming.

You guys are going to defend the DCT till the end. I get it. The SMG guys probably did that too.

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

The SMG guys probably did that too.

In the history of BMW's SMG transmissions, I don't think anyone has tried to defend that gawd awful transmission! Its only redeeming quality is that it can be converted to a manual without too much effort.

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

I don't understand your logic. You are saying that the ZF falls short because it is an 'auto' and is smoother? And the DCT isn't an auto because it doesn't shift when in manual mode? Well that's just programming by the manufacturer for both the DCT and ZF. The ZF in my former F85 X5M wouldn't shift on its own if the trans was in sport plus. Clearly that's how BMW wants their auto transmissions to act. The ZF in the X5M also doesn't creep when you let off the brake. It stays disengaged until you hit the gas pedal. It too behaves kinda like a manual box...which is programming.

You guys are going to defend the DCT till the end. I get it. The SMG guys probably did that too.

You are missing the point.

I bought this car not to be a comfort cruiser. I bought this car to go fast on road and faster on track. It's an M car. Not an X class which is a totally different use of car. The ZF is great for an M5 which is a totally different car to an M3.

You are being way more critical of the DCT than I am of the ZF. The ZF is better at low speed daily cruising. The DCT is way better pushing the car at its limit. The DCT is a superior box at the limit because the user has full control of gear selection. That's not just programming. It's a function of design. The only reason BMW is switching to the ZF is to cut production costs. No other reason.

The ZF doesn't belong on an M car. At least not what I bought it for. An M car should be a manual or DCT.

The M3 will loose a lot of character, fun and brand differentiation if it becomes an AWD ZF clone. It essentially will cease to be an M3 and I won't upgrade. Many will.

Audi Porsche show that you can have the best of both worlds with a DCT - ultrasmooth shifts and lighting fast up and down shifts when you want. It takes work and engineering but it's possible. My Audi TTRS DCT remains one of the best gearboxes I've used. Smooth as silk and fast.

I had an M140i for a week when my car was in service. Can tell you that is a great car that would be near perfection with a DCT.

The DCT is on the way out regardless of what you or I say - the bean counters at BMW have already determined that. In many ways it's the first step in the dilution of the BMW M brand. The manual which would be my second choice after a DCT is on the way out. The final nail in coffin will be electrification etc.

I'll be keeping this car for a long time to come.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by arrivederci

I don't understand your logic. You are saying that the ZF falls short because it is an 'auto' and is smoother? And the DCT isn't an auto because it doesn't shift when in manual mode? Well that's just programming by the manufacturer for both the DCT and ZF. The ZF in my former F85 X5M wouldn't shift on its own if the trans was in sport plus. Clearly that's how BMW wants their auto transmissions to act. The ZF in the X5M also doesn't creep when you let off the brake. It stays disengaged until you hit the gas pedal. It too behaves kinda like a manual box...which is programming.

You guys are going to defend the DCT till the end. I get it. The SMG guys probably did that too.

I’ll agree the ZF is on par and better than the current DCT in the M3/4 in many ways. But, it does add an extra bit of drama over a regular ZF in its clunky mannerisms that is a bit more fun.

The MotorTrend Head to Head M4 CS vs the Porsche 911 GTS described it perfectly IMO. They said it already felt old fashioned compared to the Porsche PDK and other very good implementations of ZF slush boxes. But, in a mostly good way of which I agree with.

[spool twice]

PDK is very automatic in feel, they actually went backwards for the GT3 to make it feel like an automated manual transmission, like our DCT. Food for thought ;-)

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by drgmt

You are missing the point.

I bought this car not to be a comfort cruiser. I bought this car to go fast on road and faster on track. It's an M car. Not an X class which is a totally different use of car. The ZF is great for an M5 which is a totally different car to an M3.

So you bought an auto??? Sorry. You set yourself up for that. Later you'll see I'm just a manual guy clinging on for dear life in this auto world.

Originally Posted by drgmt

You are being way more critical of the DCT than I am of the ZF. The ZF is better at low speed daily cruising. The DCT is way better pushing the car at its limit. The DCT is a superior box at the limit because the user has full control of gear selection. That's not just programming. It's a function of design. The only reason BMW is switching to the ZF is to cut production costs. No other reason.

I disagree. DCT is arguably the worst dual clutch unit on the market today. I drove it. It has it warts for sure and you are fine living with them. You won't notice them at the track but seriously - the CS (or ZCP) with DCT isn't the track car most people buy. Get serious about the track and you won't want to wad up a $100K car. If you do have that level of disposable income, again, you'll have something else (Porsche Cup car in a semi trailer w/ full crew?). ZF is better everywhere that MOST people use it which is why BMW is replacing it. Just like the SMG before it being replaced. I already told you that the ZF doesn't shift for you at redline on the X5M. That rev limiter will surprise you for sure. Your 'shift yourself' argument is done. It is already there in BMWs X5M programming. Probably will be there for all other 'M' cars.
Sorry.

Originally Posted by drgmt

The ZF doesn't belong on an M car. At least not what I bought it for. An M car should be a manual or DCT.

The M3 will loose a lot of character, fun and brand differentiation if it becomes an AWD ZF clone. It essentially will cease to be an M3 and I won't upgrade. Many will.

Well why don't you count the number of current M cars that have ZFs vs DCTs. Please. M2 M3 and M4 with DCTs maybe...and that's giving you the F80 M3 that is out of production? I'm telling you it is a matter of programming, which the manufacturers have lots of control over, and you don't believe me. The exact things you called out on the Guilia are programmed IN the ZF on the X5M. I'd bet its there on the M5 too, but I haven't driven one yet. You are geeking out on hardware and not realizing that the end result can be nearly the same. Or possibly better?

This is where you have no faith in BMW. They already are tuning other 'auto' hardware to do what you like in the hardware you have.

Originally Posted by drgmt

Audi Porsche show that you can have the best of both worlds with a DCT - ultrasmooth shifts and lighting fast up and down shifts when you want. It takes work and engineering but it's possible. My Audi TTRS DCT remains one of the best gearboxes I've used. Smooth as silk and fast.

I had an M140i for a week when my car was in service. Can tell you that is a great car that would be near perfection with a DCT.

The DCT is on the way out regardless of what you or I say - the bean counters at BMW have already determined that. In many ways it's the first step in the dilution of the BMW M brand. The manual which would be my second choice after a DCT is on the way out. The final nail in coffin will be electrification etc.

I'll be keeping this car for a long time to come.

And Audi has moved the S4, S5, RS5, etc off the dual clutch to the ZF. The big torque V8 motors already had the ZF. We both agree the dual clutches are mostly on the way out. Where we don't agree is that manufacturers can tune a conventional auto to do what you like with a dual clutch. I specifically bought my M3 because it was a manual. I'd never have this car with an auto...period. Throw an auto into the equation (DCT, ZF, whatever you wanna call it) and there are so many more options I'd consider along with the M3. Hell I'd probably still be driving the pants off my old X5M. That thing was gnarly even with the ZF. I could have it doing things a vehicle like that shouldn't be doing.

It isn't about bean counting. It is just better. Sorry you can't admit it. Lots of people with nothing invested in a DCT have already called this but you dig in. If your front splitter was made of lead - I bet you'd argue it was better for weight distribution or something.

[drgmt]

There is no need to degenerate to personal insults when all I'm doing is expressing a point of view based on cars I've driven and owned. Not what automotive journalists tell me i should think on a YouTube review.

Have you driven the M5 ? I have on track during its launch. It really sealed the deal on my opinion of the ZF on a car like the M3.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by drgmt

There is no need to degenerate to personal insults when all I'm doing is expressing a point of view based on cars I've driven and owned. Not what automotive journalists tell me i should think on a YouTube review.

Have you driven the M5 ? I have on track during its launch. It really sealed the deal on my opinion of the ZF on a car like the M3.

My biggest complaint about an auto with a torque converter VS a DCT are the down shifts and lag from the time you hit the paddle, to the actual shift.

I'm sorry but no auto that has to change gears will match a DCT that is already holding that gear to which the switch is instantaneous.

The other issue is the lag time.

GM has a great A10, yet what are they using for the C8?? A DCT!!!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

Quote by Arrivderchi: "Thus the 30K discounts and killer lease deals to move the cars"

Huh?? A BRAND NEW off the lot 2018 M3 CS for $73k. People be lying. Maybe one guy out there got one of the 550 U.S. spec cars for that price somehow. It probably did not have the executive package. Or perhaps it was compromised or damaged somehow...paint needed corrected or repaired or something like that.

I paid 94k for mine by the way. And yea... I know had I waited I could have paid less. Not 30k less tho. At least not in Las Vegas. I've never leased a car so I can't speak to that pricing. With all that said.. I do agree the CS MSRP was over priced. I mean they have a lot of cool CS specific stuff but it did not improve the performance specs much. But damn.. they sure look bad azz. That's what hooked me the minute I laid eyes on it.

The price discounts are very true. Overpricing that car really hurt sales. I could've purchased one from my dealer with 20k in discounts/incentives.

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The price discounts are very true. Overpricing that car really hurt sales. I could've purchased one from my dealer with 20k in discounts/incentives.

What state?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

What state?

I'm in SoCal!

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I'm in SoCal!

Crazy. Hard to believe they could not unload them. Isn't a M3 comp around 80k or so?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

Crazy. Hard to believe they could not unload them. Isn't a M3 comp around 80k or so?

Yeah, options dependent of course. The CS's were $100k+. Ridiculous! At that rate I would start looking at 2014-2015 GT3's.

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yeah, options dependent of course. The CS's were $100k+. Ridiculous! At that rate I would start looking at 2014-2015 GT3's.

MSRP on mine was 103+. I mean damn..the hood, rear diffuser and front splitter on the CS would cost a guy around 8k if he wanted them on his M3 . They might not do a whole lot for performance specs but they sure look good.
One has to admit that the CS looks amazing. Inside and out. That in itself was worth $$$ to me.

Well if guys are getting them now for mid 80s they are getting a smoking deal IMO. I wonder how many are left out there. They only shipped around 550 to the US.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

MSRP on mine was 103+. I mean damn..the hood, rear diffuser and front splitter on the CS would cost a guy around 8k if he wanted them on his M3 . They might not do a whole lot for performance specs but they sure look good.
One has to admit that the CS looks amazing. Inside and out. That in itself was worth $$$ to me.

Well if guys are getting them now for mid 80s they are getting a smoking deal IMO. I wonder how many are left out there. They only shipped around 550 to the US.

I do like the hood and front splitter, but I like my more basic front splitter better (...simply because wrecking an expensive CF lip hurts like a bad blowjob with teeth). I do kinda want the hood, but not bad enough to spend the coin on one. The CS's look good. The one I was considering had gold painted wheels on Alpine White.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

MSRP on mine was 103+. I mean damn..the hood, rear diffuser and front splitter on the CS would cost a guy around 8k if he wanted them on his M3 . They might not do a whole lot for performance specs but they sure look good.
One has to admit that the CS looks amazing. Inside and out. That in itself was worth $$$ to me.

Well if guys are getting them now for mid 80s they are getting a smoking deal IMO. I wonder how many are left out there. They only shipped around 550 to the US.

Actually, the hood, front lip and rear gurney flap do contribute to the CS performance as they have an effect on aero. A base or CP M4 have net lift at speed whereas a CS has net downforce.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I do like the hood and front splitter, but I like my more basic front splitter better (...simply because wrecking an expensive CF lip hurts like a bad blowjob with teeth). I do kinda want the hood, but not bad enough to spend the coin on one. The CS's look good. The one I was considering had gold painted wheels on Alpine White.

CS only come from the factory with Orbit Grey wheels. The matte gold are from the ///M Performance catalogue, which means they have been changed likely by the dealer on that car.