Autotalent
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #67
US///M3
Banned
100
Rep
1,265
Posts

Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by estrader View Post
many people say that Porsche got their EPS right on the new cars but fail to remember that BMW is not Porsche so i dont think its really comparing apples to apples. even the porsche 6mt is far better than bmw ever was..theyre just 2 different cars companies and 2 different classes of cars
Great point!

BMW and Porsche both offer roadsters, the 2012 Boxster is a 2,900 lb low center of gravity flat 6 mid engine and the 2012 z4 weighs around 3,250 lbs.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:18 AM   #68
leyton2
New Member
United Kingdom
0
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: london

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [2.00]
Unhappy EPS

I dont think the EPS system will live upto an M3 driver's expectations, but lets hope they get it right or else I will be looking else were next time I change my car.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #69
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4457
Rep
9,160
Posts

Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Great point!

BMW and Porsche both offer roadsters, the 2012 Boxster is a 2,900 lb low center of gravity flat 6 mid engine and the 2012 z4 weighs around 3,250 lbs.
Further, the Porsche only has about 45% of the weight on the nose.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #70
Propagator
Captain
14
Rep
810
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i LMB 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
While it's obvious that personal taste plays a big role in one's definition of good steering feel, there are some great observations here.

My definition of steering feel can be broken into 4 components:

1) Precision: It should go where you point it
2) Loading characteristics: As cornering forces build, it should give you some feedback by way of increasing effort. Then, as the limit approaches and the front ties start to slide, it should go light again. Anyone who remembers driving a car with unassisted steering knows this sensation- it can feel very light when going straight but loads the harder you corner.
3) Road feedback: Some call it kickback and hate it. I personally like a little bit over bumps and bots dots just to give a sense of connection between man and machine.
4) Effort: it shouldn't be so light that you can't sense any of 2) or 3).

Of all the cars I've owned or spent a lot of time driving, my benchmarks are a pair of BMWs- an E30 325iX and an E90 328i. They had better feel than the two unassisted cars, a '93 MR2 and an '89 Civic Si.

The biggest disappointment is my '04 S2000, precise but completely lacking 2) and 3)- effort is always the same. As another poster mentioned this car is so visceral in every other way that it deserves better steering feel.

Most pleasant surprise is my 2009 Fit Sport. Light effort but surprisingly good 1), 2), and 3), especially since it is EPS. Really adds some unexpected joy to the daily commute in this cheap sh!tbox

My '99 Z3 Coupe and '88 Prelude were pretty good but not standouts.

That leaves the F30 which I have only test driven. It's extremely light and first impressions of 2) and 3) were not good, but I'd have to give it time. I just wish they hadn't changed it so much from the E90.
This is a very nice post.

I would argue that 2 and 3 are what most people call the steering feel, while 1 and 4 are called, well, precision and effort. But I fully agree that all of them are very important.

The best EPS might be able to get 1, 2, and 4 right, but 3 remains elusive.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:45 AM   #71
US///M3
Banned
100
Rep
1,265
Posts

Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Further, the Porsche only has about 45% of the weight on the nose.
I'm so glad you ve pointed that out, BMW thinks a perfect 50/50 is the way to go actually a slightly lighter steer axle weight is better. Look at f1 cars,super cars none have 50-50 weight distribution.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:52 AM   #72
ATSR
Captain
United_States
45
Rep
852
Posts

Drives: 1977 Honda Civic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wellington, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
Okay, I'll bite.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think is half assed about the M6 spoiler?
Just the fact that AFTER they released the car, they found out that they had to fit a hideous looking spoiler because it was necessary for "enhanced aerodynamics".

Which of course means: we did a half-ass job when testing the new $120k M6 and found out too late that without the spoiler you will crash when traveling at high speed.

Here's the thread: http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=692330
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #73
Sered
Major
Sered's Avatar
148
Rep
1,201
Posts

Drives: 08 E90 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Melbourne, FL

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
While it's obvious that personal taste plays a big role in one's definition of good steering feel, there are some great observations here.

My definition of steering feel can be broken into 4 components:

1) Precision: It should go where you point it
2) Loading characteristics: As cornering forces build, it should give you some feedback by way of increasing effort. Then, as the limit approaches and the front ties start to slide, it should go light again. Anyone who remembers driving a car with unassisted steering knows this sensation- it can feel very light when going straight but loads the harder you corner.
3) Road feedback: Some call it kickback and hate it. I personally like a little bit over bumps and bots dots just to give a sense of connection between man and machine.
4) Effort: it shouldn't be so light that you can't sense any of 2) or 3).

The biggest disappointment is my '04 S2000, precise but completely lacking 2) and 3)- effort is always the same. As another poster mentioned this car is so visceral in every other way that it deserves better steering feel.
My S2000 did 2) just fine minus the tires going light again when understeer happens. I hate that feeling, so I felt the S2000 did it just fine
If you weren't getting 3) in your S2000, maybe you should have gotten better tires? The S2000 had loads of road feedback.

Point being that people are flipping out over this because they can't distinguish between electric steering and drive-by-wire steering.
__________________
'08 E90 w/ just boltons
'09 Z4 sDrive35i w/ just boltons
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #74
Propagator
Captain
14
Rep
810
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i LMB 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered View Post
Point being that people are flipping out over this because they can't distinguish between electric steering and drive-by-wire steering.
That is simply untrue. There are plenty of people on this board that know quite a bit about how an EPS works that have been participating in this debate. Show me the posts where anyone says anything about DBW steering, which doesn't even exist for passenger cars.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 02:13 PM   #75
mapezzul
Special Agent
mapezzul's Avatar
United_States
74
Rep
1,731
Posts

Drives: Depends on the day!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bavaria

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
Just the fact that AFTER they released the car, they found out that they had to fit a hideous looking spoiler because it was necessary for "enhanced aerodynamics".

Which of course means: we did a half-ass job when testing the new $120k M6 and found out too late that without the spoiler you will crash when traveling at high speed.

Here's the thread: http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=692330
Actually what happened was M put its foot down and told the marketing people the car needs the spoiler.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 02:25 PM   #76
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
1062
Rep
5,660
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?

I'm just curious. I've heard the rants about EPS. I've driven with it myself and, compared to what my e92 feels like, I'm not nuts about it, but I can live with it.

As a practical matter, I'm not likely to buy an M3 (or M anything else) unless there arises a new reason more compelling than those that existed over the past quarter century.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 02:46 PM   #77
Propagator
Captain
14
Rep
810
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i LMB 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?

I'm just curious. I've heard the rants about EPS. I've driven with it myself and, compared to what my e92 feels like, I'm not nuts about it, but I can live with it.

As a practical matter, I'm not likely to buy an M3 (or M anything else) unless there arises a new reason more compelling than those that existed over the past quarter century.
You do save a little gas with the EPS. For a high powered luxury cars like BMW, this is a very tiny effect. But if you have a small, light car with a small engine, every little bit helps.

In addition, EPS is more compact, easier to tune, and also cheaper to produce. Again, none of these is critical to cars like BMW, but they matter a lot to mainstream cars.

So why do these factors affect our cars? I would guess that the suppliers will simply not develop or produce HPS any more. Keep in mind that both Porsche and BMW are buying their steering system from ZF. If parts companies like ZF no longer wants to maintain HPS line, which would be a wise business move as 99% of the market would not miss HPS, then you have no other choice but to tune the EPS the best you can.

Or you can make your own steering rack, but apparently nobody does that any more.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 02:52 PM   #78
SCOTT26
Major General
SCOTT26's Avatar
5385
Rep
5,824
Posts

Drives: A big F-off German Truck.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Actually what happened was M put its foot down and told the marketing people the car needs the spoiler.
Yes every BMW right up to the official market launch is perfected and tested before they end up with the customer.
Even after the first press releases, you would be surprised on how many cars that BMW submit for initial launch photography and film work which are not final examples , some of which is why interiors are often filmed within the confine of studios later.
__________________
The M850i is evidence that BMW have got their mojo back when it comes to dynamic sports cars...
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #79
TheRox
Colonel
TheRox's Avatar
122
Rep
2,312
Posts

Drives: 6mt
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (2)

I find eps bad systems have more precision than hydraulic. Not that it makes a world of difference


Cars will evolve.

#firstworldproblems
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #80
US///M3
Banned
100
Rep
1,265
Posts

Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRox View Post


Cars will evolve.

#firstworldproblems
That's probably why i can't find a new car with a "Three on the tree".
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2012, 08:05 PM   #81
freshwhite335
Colonel
freshwhite335's Avatar
United_States
152
Rep
2,882
Posts

Drives: 991/RR Sport AB
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: 904 FL

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post

The real issue is the insane fuel efficiency rules being forced on the public. High performance cars will continue to increase in price at a rate faster than for other cars because the cost of the technology required and the economics that penalize vehicles with less than targeted efficiency.
have you seen what AMG prices are doing? crazy
__________________
2014 Range Rover Sport Autobiography
2012.5 991 C2S
1978 Corvette
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2012, 01:21 AM   #82
boostaholic786
Captain
boostaholic786's Avatar
40
Rep
622
Posts

Drives: E92 N54 with MHD Custom flash
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Plano TX

iTrader: (0)

smoke coming out of the trunk on a brand new F30???? hmm.... I think Im going to stick to my e92 for a while....I havent had smoke come out of my trunk....I thought smoke usually comes out of the front of a car if something is on fire or burning... I guess there is just way to many wires back there because of all this technology they are putting in these cars.... Me personally would rather my trunk not be smoking driving down the road lol. Why cant M improve their engines and transmissions to be bullet proof and fast as hell but also keep to the basics that there is no way a EPS sytem is going to duplicate hydro steering
__________________
[SIZE="2"]Crimson Red E92 335i M-sport 6-speed with MHD custom stage 2+ flash only , 40% E85/93 mix,+ HRE P40S wheels, KW Clubsport, M3 sways,+BMW performance CF Mirrors, BMW Performance CF deck lid spoiler,+ CF interior trim, p3 vent boost gauge,+ LUX angel eyes (11.73@124mph on street tires)
Appreciate 1
zamboni1175.00
      04-08-2014, 12:21 PM   #83
grant
Lieutenant
grant's Avatar
United_States
18
Rep
524
Posts

Drives: 1973 Porsche 911
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?
I hate EPS, but it is a little lighter and more efficient (don't have to waste horsepower from the engine spinning the pump).

I think besides fuel savings, one of the primary reasons many cars have gone to EPS is so the cars can still be steered with the engine turned off (Start/Stop systems). This way you can prepare to change course next time you drive away from a stop, etc.

BTW, the best possible power steering is hydraulic where the pump is spun by an electric motor. This provides all the benefits of steering feel with all the efficiency (and ability to steer with engine off) of EPS. It weighs a little more and costs a little more to implement, but EPS is too big a compromise to me. This hybrid system has been used in all the Porsche 997 factory race cars as well as the McLaren 12C.
__________________
1973 Porsche Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber (240hp & 1,890 lbs)
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2013 bmw m3, 2013 bmw m4, 2013 m3, 2013 m4, 2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 electric power steering, 2014 m3 forum, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, f80, f80 forum, f80 forums, f80 m3, f80 m3 electric power steering, f80 m3 eps, f80 m3 forum, f80 m3 forums, f80 m3 sedan, f82, f82 coupe, f82 forum, f82 forums, f82 m3, f82 m3 coupe, f82 m3 forum, f82 m4, f82 m4 coupe, f82 m4 forum, f82 m4 forums, f83 m3, f83 m4, m forum, m forums, m3 f80, m3 f80 forum, m3 f80 forums, m4 forum, m4 forums

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST