Carbon Ceramic brakes

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bimmerj

I am not sure if the rotors are ceramic. Looking at the cars, it seems only the pads are some sort of a ceramic composite. The rotors look like a two piece steel rotors.

Some of the F8X ///M's have the steel rotors and others have the CCB's.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by bimmerj

I am not sure if the rotors are ceramic. Looking at the cars, it seems only the pads are some sort of a ceramic composite. The rotors look like a two piece steel rotors.

Ceramic brake pads do not cost $7500. There is a another thread describing the technology behind the CCB rotors (which is now this thread as it got merged).

Remember what the rotor really is, a heat sink. The carbon ceramic rotors can withstand more heat and dissipate it quicker.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by RealStig

Fair point. I didnt know carbon ceramic is less durable.

Durable is not the correct term. Ceramics are very durable, just brittle and respond extremely poorly to impact forces.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by RealStig

Not sure about the carbon rotors, but the ones on my current car are pretty durable. No chips after so many wheel swaps and I do them all the time and believe it or not its hard not to touch the rotor with a 70 pound wheel/tire.

70 lbs? You got cast iron wheels? PSS 275/35-19s weigh 27 lbs, and a good 10" wheel shouldn't be more than 22 or so (probably 25-6 for stock). Nowhere close to 70. And if you use a wheel hanger stud http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/p...roducts_id=295) it helps avoid this kind of thing.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

70 lbs? You got cast iron wheels? PSS 275/35-19s weigh 27 lbs, and a good 10" wheel shouldn't be more than 22 or so (probably 25-6 for stock). Nowhere close to 70. And if you use a wheel hanger stud http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/p...roducts_id=295) it helps avoid this kind of thing.

LOL! Good points!

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

70 lbs? You got cast iron wheels? PSS 275/35-19s weigh 27 lbs, and a good 10" wheel shouldn't be more than 22 or so (probably 25-6 for stock). Nowhere close to 70. And if you use a wheel hanger stud http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/p...roducts_id=295) it helps avoid this kind of thing.

I have the crappy A7 sport wheels with 235 blizzaks and they weigh 70 lbs each (when I got them from tire rack, I put one on my bathroom scale). I know the OEM wheels are much lighter than this even though they are larger.

EDIT : I am going to buy the wheel hanger stud, thank you very much, you have made my life much easier!

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

LOL! Good points!

Major fail, forgot the weight of the TPMS sensor and balancing weights!

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Ceramic brake pads do not cost $7500. There is a another thread describing the technology behind the CCB rotors (which is now this thread as it got merged).

Remember what the rotor really is, a heat sink. The carbon ceramic rotors can withstand more heat and dissipate it quicker.

You might be right, but I find them very strange looking. They might be some sort of a cermet. Actually floating rotors and ceramic pads can run you up $8000.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by bimmerj

You might be right, but I find them very strange looking. They might be some sort of a cermet. Actually floating rotors and ceramic pads can run you up $8000.

Again, ceramic pads isn't anything special. And you don't want to run ceramic brake pads on the track. You're paying for the rotors here (and the 6-pot calipers). Go back to the beginning of this thread that describes that rotors.

And I've had two-piece steel rotors on a previous car for track duty. Unless you're driving a Ferrari, they don't cost $8k.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by bimmerj

You might be right, but I find them very strange looking. They might be some sort of a cermet. Actually floating rotors and ceramic pads can run you up $8000.

They ARE full carbon ceramic rotors.

[bing240sx]

question:

i have stoptech trophies on my E90... do we know yet if they can be swapped over to an F80?

that will impact whether i go CCB or not.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by aus

Why would anyone get these other than for bling?
NO way you need it for the street.

If you track, you'd be crazy to get these over steel rotors.

Why crazy if you track ?

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

Why crazy if you track ?

-Hard to find track pads for these.
-Usually you're doing a lot of wheel swaps for track days. Chip the rotor and it's toast.
-A LOT cheaper to replace steel rotors vice the carbon ceramic (they don't last forever)

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

They ARE full carbon ceramic rotors.

You are right. I did some more reading. My fault.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by Jockey

-Hard to find track pads for these.
-Usually you're doing a lot of wheel swaps for track days. Chip the rotor and it's toast.
-A LOT cheaper to replace steel rotors vice the carbon ceramic (they don't last forever)

But CCBs have less weight = less unsprung mass = better handling.
They are much more heat resistant and fade resistant.
And they last much longer than steel rotors.

Well, that's what BMW says. Or is it just marketing ?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

But CCBs have less weight = less unsprung mass = better handling.
They are much more heat resistant and fade resistant.
And they last much longer than steel rotors.

Well, that's what BMW says. Or is it just marketing ?

They typically aren't as durable on track, and like was said, are very prone to chipping and will need to be replaced.

The unsprung weihjt difference is minor, and with the 7000 you spend on these rotors (much less the expensive replacement costs) you can add a whole hell of a lot more performqnce.

Finally, although I will track my m3, it's not exactly a race car or ideal track machine. Tracking a car is expensive, no way id want to exponentially increase that cost by using ceramic brakes

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

But CCBs have less weight = less unsprung mass = better handling.
They are much more heat resistant and fade resistant.
And they last much longer than steel rotors.

Well, that's what BMW says. Or is it just marketing ?

They are lighter, I'll give them that. And yes, they have a higher heat tolerance. Fade is a result of heat transfer from the rotor into the pad and into the fluid.

There is a reason why pros use them. However, they also have buckets of money. For the non-professional, there isn't much reason to have them outside of the bling.

[Zoli007]

I've been reading and following this debate and I keep seeing a few things Im curious of.

I have VERY minimal experience with CCB's, but I've driven a few porsches with them and found them incredible in feel and stopping power. Granted I have NOT driven one with steel brakes. I have a friend with a GT3 RS that was bought used with about 2-3000 miles, they did 3 track events with the car, stock pads and fluid. My buddy knows how to drive, he was not taking it easy on the car. They found no wear worth talking about on the rotors or pads after 3 events and the car performed amazingly with ridiculous stopping power and not a hint of fade. Tracks were Sebring and PBIR.

Granted, its only 3 events, but I have a theory... Is it possible that the notion that CCB's dont last on track is a self fulfilling idea? What I mean by this- does anyone have any direct experience with CCB's wearing out very prematurely? I have a feeling it happened once or twice (or some random very small number) a while ago on 1st or 2nd gen systems and that story spread like wildfire and since then no one bothers to take CCB cars to the track because the internet said so.

Im not saying its not true, but simply asking if anyone has any DIRECT experience with this happening? Either to them or someone they know closely.

I understand that there is likely minimal difference in stopping power at street speeds, but if you like to blast up to triple digit speeds in areas where its not allowed, being able to very quickly come back down to legal speeds is worth something IMHO. The weight difference, long life cycle and upgraded calipers MAY be worth it.... of course we are still yet to see the final price.

My idea would be to do 1-2 events a year with the car, just to be able to enjoy what its truly capable of legally. The one thing I totaly agree with and would very much worry about is chipping the rotors during wheel swaps/services.

[aus]

There are a ton of threads on CCB on 6speed. The newer Porsche rotors are suppose to be better, but you are very limited to what pads you can use, or they'll ruin the rotors.

Also, don't forget that any rock between the pad and rotor, and you ruin them too.
.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

But CCBs have less weight = less unsprung mass = better handling.
They are much more heat resistant and fade resistant.
And they last much longer than steel rotors.

Well, that's what BMW says. Or is it just marketing ?

The weight difference is not huge on the M3/M4. In this thread, it is said they are worth 13-15lbs. That is about 3.5lb per corner of unsprung mass. Every bit counts, but it not a huge difference. There is probably a greater benefit in rotating mass though (a portion of the weight saving of the discs is offset by the heavier callipers).

I do spent a fair bit of time at the track, and every guy I know that tracks a GT3 has swapped to steel rotors because the CCBs do wear down fast and are damn expensive to replace. For about 10x the cost, the certainly don't last 10x as long.

Further, the steel rotors on my E92 M3 have performed very well for me. Except for the pads, I run everything stock (even the fluid) on the brake system. It has performed flawlessly for 5 seasons and 80+ track days. The steel brakes on the F8X are an upgrade compared to the E9X, so I see no reasons why they should not be at least as good. At $8500, no CCB for me.

[varsity]

I'm ordering CCB for M4 because, if the stock pad compound is anything like the stock PCCB compound, it'll be able to handle street use and track use without needing change. I want to be able to flush in SRF and go from street commuting to hotlapping to street commuting without having to realign, change brake pads, or adjust any settings other than tire pressure.

I'm suspending disbelief that the CCB will be able to handle intense track use with only a fluid change. And if not, I know I'll be able to swap in iron rotors and retain the larger calipers. Pad availability - whether for iron or CC rotors - for the CCB calipers is a minor concern, but many pad manufacturers will custom-cut pads based on measurements.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The weight difference is not huge on the M3/M4. In this thread, it is said they are worth 13-15lbs. That is about 3.5lb per corner of unsprung mass. Every bit counts, but it not a huge difference. There is probably a greater benefit in rotating mass though (a portion of the weight saving of the discs is offset by the heavier callipers).

I do spent a fair bit of time at the track, and every guy I know that tracks a GT3 has swapped to steel rotors because the CCBs do wear down fast and are damn expensive to replace. For about 10x the cost, the certainly don't last 10x as long.

Further, the steel rotors on my E92 M3 have performed very well for me. Except for the pads, I run everything stock (even the fluid) on the brake system. It has performed flawlessly for 5 seasons and 80+ track days. The steel brakes on the F8X are an upgrade compared to the E9X, so I see no reasons why they should not be at least as good. At $8500, no CCB for me.

The car will be faster which will be harder on the brakes but the car is also lighter which will be a positive for the brakes. With larger brakes it should definitely be an improvement overall. However, I've also not seen anything official that the new brakes are larger. Heavier would actually be an advantage for more thermal mass as opposed to just larger in diameter.