Does Anybody Else DD with DSC Fully Off?

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

I was really just interested in knowing if it was just me. I'll be the one to decide how to drive my car. What surprises me, frankly, is the breathless overreaction—as if turning off DSC is this terribly irresponsible thing, despite enhanced driver engagement, based upon no data whatsoever.

I'm not sure why you would buy this car if your plan is to leave a good part of its capabilities—and driveability—on the table 99% of the time you are actually using it. But whatever, you do you too.

It's called the track, which we do a lot. But yeah sure.

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by superbrew

If your driving in such a way that DSC is intrusive on your daily commute, you are being incredibly irresponsible. On a back road, by yourself, by all means explore the limits.
It's not a matter of your ability to control your own car, it's the unpredictability of those around you.

Okay let’s get one thing straight. You have no freaking clue whether I’m responsible or not. It’s not as if the ABS system is getting disabled. Although it may be true that the DSC enhances your chances of successfully executing an emergency evasive maneuver, having it off does not doom you to failure. Geez.

[boi222]

Not worth the risk in my opinion ... I'm sorry but there is no way any one can be faster at reacting and saving your skin than the electronics built in the car that can react in nano seconds .... it just takes a split second of misjudgment before things can go very wrong ... it's one thing to put yourself and your family at risk but it is very selfish to put other families at risk...

Even professional drivers have messed up on a basic pace lap ...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Not really, it's like the car detects the most minute amount of spin and just kills the power. Wheel spin is just a fact of life in quick cars, I absolutely hated the fact how this car just decides you'll have absolutely no fun with the DSC engaged.

Reminds me of wheel spin at 70/80mph in my single turbo Supra back in the day. It didn't bother me then, and a car with around 300hp less won't bother me now!

OK, I think I get what you are saying. But you're not getting "too much wheel spin" with DSC On, in other words you're not getting any more wheel spin with DSC On that you are with DSC Off.

From my observations with my M4 and from what I have read about DSC systems in general, the DSC system will cut power in anticipation of loss of traction. Wheels are always slipping slightly, even when travelling at constant speed. The DSC system monitors the amount slip differential between the different wheels and will cut power if it feels the speed differential is getting too large or is increasing too rapidly, even if there is no loss of traction per say.

As an example, MDM would always cut power when hitting the crest in the back straight at my local track. However, running in the exact same conditions with DSC off, there is zero drama, no wheel spin, no loss of traction, just a faster top speed at the end of the back straight. The same can be observed during WOT redline upshifts in S3 and Sport+, with MDM there is always a lag on upshift while with DSC off, again no drama, just a sharp punchy upshift. Hence my conclusion the the DSC system on F8X will make interventions BEFORE a loss of traction has actually occurred. I get that it does that with full DSC for safety, but I find it disappointing that it also does so in MDM.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

Yeah exactly. Somethings it actually seems to anticipate wheel spin and kill power.

Exactly, see post above.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

Okay let’s get one thing straight. You have no freaking clue whether I’m responsible or not. It’s not as if the ABS system is getting disabled. Although it may be true that the DSC enhances your chances of successfully executing an emergency evasive maneuver, having it off does not doom you to failure. Geez.

Meh, just agree to disagree. It's your car, drive it the way you feel comfortable with. With all the drugged up inattentive drivers out there, it's pretty laughable people are getting so bent out of shape over DSC being turned off.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by boi222

Even professional drivers have messed up on a basic pace lap ...

I think I know who you are referring to. He is not a professional driver. Pretty rookie mistake IMO .

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by LloydChristmas

On stock tires, not a chance.

Once I switched to Pilot 4S, so much more grip that I drive my car with DSC completely off. I do leave the nannies on when it's cold or damp out though.

With the stock contis I never drove with DSC completely off, I went euro MDM.

Once i got PS4S 14 months ago I found the car, even with a stage 1 hex tune, could handle the power. I keep the DSC off from May to October.

HOWEVER, i do not have it programmed into my M1/M2 buttons. I have to manually hold down the button. It makes me aware of it.

Obviously, if my wife or newborn is in the car, it stays on fully nannie mode.

[nicknaz]

hi OP, I used to daily drive in (euro) MDM mode, but then I had 1 morning where for a variety of reasons (a bit colder outside, a bit less attentiveness from me etc) instead of a "fast take off from a slow right turn" it ended up with "drifting around the right turn with the back of my car in the lane next to me"

While it felt BOSS to execute that maneuver, it made me realize there were many ways this could have ended up in a bad situation (e.g. if there was a car one lane over, if I lossed it and looped the car into the curb/parked cars, etc etc) so personally use all the electronic assists when commuting and only turn them off at the track

It's nice to have a safety margin on the streets.

Good luck and don't be the person who ends up on youtube during their morning commute

EDIT: I also tried to launch control and ended up with a mini tank slapper and a smoke show.. that also helped me decide to keep DSC ON

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

With the stock contis I never drove with DSC completely off, I went euro MDM.

Once i got PS4S 14 months ago I found the car, even with a stage 1 hex tune, could handle the power. I keep the DSC off from May to October.

HOWEVER, i do not have it programmed into my M1/M2 buttons. I have to manually hold down the button. It makes me aware of it.

Obviously, if my wife or newborn is in the car, it stays on fully nannie mode.

Yep, PS4s made a massive difference in how the car hooked for me. Those tires are extremely impressive.

[backagain]

Originally Posted by superbrew

If your driving in such a way that DSC is intrusive on your daily commute, you are being incredibly irresponsible. On a back road, by yourself, by all means explore the limits.
It's not a matter of your ability to control your own car, it's the unpredictability of those around you.

DSC intervention is by no means close to the limit. If you haven't, suggest you find out where the limits are first. Just because you want to be extra cautious, doesn't mean others are reckless when they don't drive the way you do.

[MaynardZed]

I vote for letting the OP be a 52 year old full grown man and vote for letting him drive it how he wants. I mean, how did we ever survive back in the 60's and 70's when muscle cars and sports cars had just a much power as our beloved M4, yet they were rolling around on skinny old technology tires? Yes a bunch of those old cars were crashed, but there's plenty of new M4's that have been wrecked too (most of which probably had DSC on)

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I vote for letting the OP be a 52 year old full grown man and vote for letting him drive it how he wants. I mean, how did we ever survive back in the 60's and 70's when muscle cars and sports cars had just a much power as our beloved M4, yet they were rolling around on skinny old technology tires? Yes a bunch of those old cars were crashed, but there's plenty of new M4's that have been wrecked too (most of which probably had DSC on)

Exactly, to make the jump that driving without DSC on is somehow irresponsible means everybody in a classic or pre DSC car is a raging asshole who hates everybody and wants to drink infant blood.

Yes that's a ridiculous analogy, just as ridiculous as it is to claim driving around without DSC on is endangering others.

To answer your question how we survived, we didn't have iDumbass gadgets, infotainment centers, and all the other crap to distract us. We also didn't have the false sense of confidence which some seem to have by enabling DSC. ;P

[CigarPundit]

Mmmmm...infant blood....that’s good stuff.

[NoMoreAudi]

Think of a scenario like this - you're on the freeway, DSC off, cruising at 75 mph. A car two lanes over suddenly swerves towards you for whatever reason. If your DSC is off and you decide to swerve instead of brake (to avoid the collision), the chance of spinning out is higher than if your DSC was on. To each his own. Just don't total your car and make my insurance company increase premiums next year, thanks.

[dongerkim]

Originally Posted by LucBroDude

Driving skills don't improve with age.....If anything driving errors increase with age. Yes you can argue that nannies induce carelessness but you need to take into consideration that they're there to actually help you in case something goes wrong (ie, bad roads, oil patches, etc.). But don't take my word for it. Ask any professional driving instructor and see what they tell you.

With all do respect, drivers with more experience will usually always have less accidents. Obviously it has nothing to do with reaction time/physical ability, but there is something to be said about wisdom. Auto insurance companies tend to agree.


Back to the point of driving with DSC off all the time. Unless its a weekend car and you're concentrating 100%, it seems very tiring to have your guard up all the time. There are clearly some added risks. If you want the occasionally wheel slip, just simply turn it off for that particular moment.

The only cons I can really think of is building some bad car control habits with DSC/MDM on. I think Euro MDM is more than enough "safe" slip on public roads. A bit too intrusive on the track.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by dongerkim

With all do respect, drivers with more experience will usually always have less accidents. Obviously it has nothing to do with reaction time/physical ability, but there is something to be said about wisdom. Auto insurance companies tend to agree.

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

Well I’m 52 and I’ve been driving a long time. I disagree. One could certainly argue that nannies induce a carelessness that is itself “pretty stupid”.

You are close to hitting the age where rates start going up again with age, especially with a Sports Car.

Insurance Companies clearly disagree with you once you’ve had your AARP Card for several years.

You sound just like my a Grandfather who swore the same thing.

Of course he was the only person I’ve ever seen pulled over by LEO in a school zone.....for going too SLOW.

[FriedPiston]

I get both sides of the argument, and I support OP for being aware of his driving abilities.

Just think of how many times you've witnessed a pre-1995 RWD vehicle with no TCS/ECS technology crash during regular driving, particularly in dry conditions. How about high horsepower muscle car classics with solid rear axles? I don't think any of those guys are getting their panties wet just because their 1000+ HP classic car doesn't have traction control.

I don't buy that your parents or grandparents were better skilled drivers than today's generation considering that none of the cars back in the day had traction control as an option. And the roads were definitely not as smoothly paved as they are now. Rubber construct on tires have also improved considerably.

Accidents are often unexpected, and they happen with or without DSC enabled. So if you're completely comfortable with the car's handling characteristics, like OP clearly is, why not enjoy the car a little bit more by driving with nannies off?

Although far from an M, here's a video of a Lambo demonstrating the car's handling behavior both with traction control on and off. Keep in mind that this is an extreme example, which is done for demonstration purposes.

[Mazen189]

I keep my dcs on when driving normally and with some enthusiasm.

I do enjoy the capabilities that you have with it off. But I'll be honest, I'm not at that level of controlling the car when chit hits the fan. I came from a Tacoma lolll

[racer01]

Surprising responses. Guess I am may be getting surprisingly close to "seasoned veteran" (not old) these days. Grew up loving cars and motorcycles. Never had traction control until 2002 Z06, and then I turned it off most of the time. Lots of cars and lots of track days.
No doubt advanced systems have their place and I guess I am glad that most people use them most of the time. Keep in mind however that this is a regular old car, not a F-117 that won't fly without electronics. It won't do what you don't tell it to do. Respect it and gain experience carefully.
I love driving with TC off much of the time. I don't like learning/having to rely on electronic interventions that mask what the car is really doing. TC in this car really takes the snap out of a good 1-2 or 2-3 shift. To me its the difference between a smile when it chirps into gear or seeing the TC light flash on the dash and me doing an involuntary "Grrrrrr" like Clint Eastwood in Grand Torino.
To each his own, but not sure OP deserves to be called irresponsible or having inappropriate behavior for public roads. Lots of overland trucks with no ABS out there than will squash you like a bug and not feel it.

[wreaks25]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

I started doing this recently to get a sense of what the tune was doing to my power and torque. Previously I was driving pretty much all the time in MDM, and post-tune Euro MDM (though I did switch DSC off before the tune to get a baseline on the butt dyno). It's like a different car. I'm addicted to it, and I can't bring myself to switch DSC back on. In my experience, as long as I am aware of the fact that DSC is off and wheel spin could occur at any moment, it hasn't been hazardous at all. I'm expecting it and if I feel like it's getting hairy I just ease off and it hooks right up. No drama really. I love having full power available and the option to induce wheel spin at will. I think this is my new DD mode. Am I nuts and living on the edge or do others do this as well?

That's actually the only way I drive mine. No nannies at all ever. Had mine since 2015 so far so good. If you moderate throttle inputs properly you will have no issues.

[CigarPundit]

I currently have M1 set up with Euro MDM, and M2 set up with DSC off. If I feel like relaxing, I switch back to M1, and if I feel like driving, I'm in M2. One thing I have found about this car is that I almost always feel like driving. I've always loved driving cars, but I used to be in "relaxed" mode far more often than I am now. I don't even listen to music as much in the car because I want to hear the engine, be attentive to the car's dynamics, and focus on the driving. This car has renewed my love of driving and made me a better and more skilled driver for sure. I see so many people driving around (with some sort of DSC enabled, undoubtedly) distracted and disengaged. I'd far rather they all have their DSCs off, paying better attention, and expecting the rear end to step out on them with the slightest provocation. It brings a certain discipline, deliberateness and caution, at least for me. And I get to fully enjoy the car at its best in the process.