Another engine oil thread. Castrol Edge/Pennzoil/ Liqui Moly?

[ericold]

Originally Posted by edycol

Ambient temperature is not an issue, per se! This means that if the cooling system is sufficient (which it is on BMW), it is fine.
Altitude is a BIG deal, especially in the summer. The higher you go, the lower the air density is. Think about airplanes. The longest runways in the US are in Denver and Colorado Springs because in the summer, air density is much lower, which affects lift.
Well, the way cooling works is that there is a heat exchange between the radiator and the air. Air molecules take over heat from the radiator and with that, radiator fins cool down and with that fluid. However, if air density is lower, heat exchange is much less efficient.
Up until 3,000ft it is OK, above 3,000ft is when things start to get interesting. Above 10,000ft (a lot of mountain passes in CO are above 10,000ft). There is no heat in Phoenix, etc., that compares to the challenges of cooling an engine on those mountain passes, including winter.
Our local track, HPR, is east of Denver and sits at 5000ft. I have seen tuned cars from TX and AZ that don't have issues there in the summer, just to throw CEL here and go into limp mode.

Another problem is atmospheric pressure. The higher you go, the lower the pressure. However, your internal cooling pressure stays the same. That is how vehicles don't overheat at altitude. The problem is that as outside pressure gets lower, if you have any deficiency in the system, loose hose, or cracked radiator, at altitude, there is a higher probability that the system is going to fail; basically, internal pressure is too much. A good experiment is a bag of chips (Cheetos are best). Take it into car through Eisenhower tunnel or Vail Pass, anywhere above 10,000ft and bag will burt. If your hoses or coolant reservoir is wek, well, that becomes that bag.

so when that happens in such a high altitude we need a higher grade viscosity oil,a higher hths or the opposite? i mean ,we need to stay at our normal viscosity oil or we need to choose a different one if doing such commute for a mix use? how it affects the selection of grade-viscosity oil?

some colleagues made of fun of me when i transferred our conversation to them.i need strong knowledge to pursuade them.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

so when that happens in such a high altitude we need a higher grade viscosity oil,a higher hths or the opposite? i mean ,we need to stay at our normal viscosity oil or we need to choose a different one if doing such commute for a mix use? how it affects the selection of grade-viscosity oil?

some colleagues made of fun of me when i transferred our conversation to them.i need strong knowledge to pursuade them.

Actually you don’t need higher viscosity. Oil can sustain a lot of heat. I ran Mobil1 0W40 to 300f, some run it to 340. Higher viscosity also means more resistance =more heat.
Best way to tackle cooling issues at high altitude is diluting coolant (I mean that is solution anywhere where cooling is an issue). More distilled water and less coolant concentrate. Some manufacturers (Audi) puts in manual to run 90% distilled water on track in their S/RS models.
I run only 10degree freezing point in summer when tracking my car. Water exchanges heat more efficiently than coolant. You only need enough coolant to lubricate water pump and prevent corrosion. That is it.
Of course, living in mountains or cold climate in winter you need to increase concentration.
As for your colleagues, I will try to find some readings.
Or you can tell them to visit Pikes Peak here, 14.112ft. On my VW i can bump coolant gauge to 3/4 in no time climbing that. If you push it a bit, you must turn on heat to max so you additionally cool off coolant using heater core (I run heat at max on track to cool it off better).
Rangers at the ramp to enter Pikes Peak will tell you to not run AC so you don’t overheat, regardless that in the summer it can be in 40’s up there. But, you simply don’t have air. Your lungs will notice that big time.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

so when that happens in such a high altitude we need a higher grade viscosity oil,a higher hths or the opposite? i mean ,we need to stay at our normal viscosity oil or we need to choose a different one if doing such commute for a mix use? how it affects the selection of grade-viscosity oil?

some colleagues made of fun of me when i transferred our conversation to them.i need strong knowledge to pursuade them.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...9930091123.pdf


Your colleagues should research what density altitude is.

[ericold]

appreciate !

.i am just trying to understand if there is an oil thing is involved on the whole situation..bcs. you said :

it depends on the altitude and the place of the moon of what oil you will choose next time on uphill track.
what the moon has to do with oil selection?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

appreciate !

.i am just trying to understand if there is an oil thing is involved on the whole situation..bcs. you said :

it depends on the altitude and the place of the moon of what oil you will choose next time on uphill track.
what the moon has to do with oil selection?

Lol. I think it is typo.
Can’t remember what I wanted to say.
Track is different. You definitely want 40 grade on track. Just because of HTHS margin. But you don’t want too much as higher HTHS means more resistance and influence performance.
With altitude comes heat, and in that case you want robust HTHS. When I said no need to change to thicker oil bcs. altitude, I meant in regular operations, even if you push car hard. That doesn’t equate to conditions on track.
For regular driving diluting coolant is best way to tackle heat. If I lived in TX for example, I would never run 50:50%, more likely 70:30% in favor of distilled water.
Don’t forget, most new BMW’s have also heat exchanger between coolant and oil. Diluted coolant can carry more heat and release it knto environment through radiator. That means diluted coolant will take more heat ftom oil in heat exchanger, hence name exchanger.

[Louis313]

Hi, Just bought an 2016 M4 with 70kms on it and got the liquid Moly molygen oil change pack on ECS... from what I read on this tread should I not buy this again and switch to castrol or AMS?

the car is tuned stage2, but not track driven.

[ericold]

Originally Posted by Louis313

Hi, Just bought an 2016 M4 with 70kms on it and got the liquid Moly molygen oil change pack on ECS... from what I read on this tread should I not buy this again and switch to castrol or AMS?

the car is tuned stage2, but not track driven.

i think the advise edycol would give you ,would be castrol 0-30 , 0-40 or motul xcess 5-40 gen 2

[ericold]

edycol i know you like motul line too.so i was a little skeptical concerning the xclean line vs the xcess line.since i can put one or another in my engine:
some random questions:

i dont know how the name xcess came from but the xclean name means its a clean oil reffering to it for being a low/mid saps or that it cleans the engine?lol but reading UOA i dont find any serious ammount of calcium additives to justify the name ''clean'' so i guess its name is a reference for being a low/mid saps oil thus,''clean''.

then why this oil more expensive than the xcess gen 1 which has way more calcium to clean the engine or almost same price with the more expensive gen 2 api SP which has calcium and magnesium ? whats so special with xclean + 5-30 to justify its expensive price?

xclean+ 5-30 is expensive comparing the additives it carries with the additives
that the xcess line carries. why?

another question has to do with additives.is it better for keeping the engine clean with a combination of less calcium and some magnesium or just a big ammount of calcium only?

final from the 8100 street line, xclean+ 5-30 or xcess 5-40 gen 1 or 2 which one has more esters carrying?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

edycol i know you like motul line too.so i was a little skeptical concerning the xclean line vs the xcess line.since i can put one or another in my engine:
some random questions:

i dont know how the name xcess came from but the xclean name means its a clean oil reffering to it for being a low/mid saps or that it cleans the engine?lol but reading UOA i dont find any serious ammount of calcium additives to justify the name ''clean'' so i guess its name is a reference for being a low/mid saps oil thus,''clean''.

then why this oil more expensive than the xcess gen 1 which has way more calcium to clean the engine or almost same price with the more expensive gen 2 api SP which has calcium and magnesium ? whats so special with xclean + 5-30 to justify its expensive price?

xclean+ 5-30 is expensive comparing the additives it carries with the additives
that the xcess line carries. why?

another question has to do with additives.is it better for keeping the engine clean with a combination of less calcium and some magnesium or just a big ammount of calcium only?

final from the 8100 street line, xclean+ 5-30 or xcess 5-40 gen 1 or 2 which one has more esters carrying?

The x-Clean lineup is Low to Mid-SAPS. It is first and foremost designed for vehicles with after-treatment devices such as diesel particulate filters (DPF) or gasoline particulate filters (GPF).
Calcium does not have anything to do with that. Excessive calcium is bad for engines that have LSPI issues (no BMW engine has that except those that have some tunes, but that is a tuning issue, not BMW engineering issue). I know some B46/48 had some issues, but I would say that is extremely rare).

So, Sulfated Ash is a byproduct of engine lubrication and that ash is primarily responsible for intake valve deposits (IVD). There is some good evidence that Low-SAPS oils reduce IVD. Lubrizol (additive manufacturer) did a study between VW 502.00 (High SASP) and VW504.00/507.00 oils (Low SAPS), and VW 502.00 oils left 167% more carbon buildup on the intake valves on the EA888 engine. But, BMW has far better PCV design than VW engines, which is key to reducing IVD.
However, the bigger issue is clogging DPF/GPF. High SAPS oils, like LL01 produce around 1.10 to 1.30% of SA per volume. Low SAPS are limited to 0.8%. That is actually a huge difference in the lifespan of DPF/GPF, as sulfated ash cannot be eliminated with a regenerative process that diesel or gasoline engines do. They are just eliminating soot with that. So, eventually, sulfated ash will clog DPF. But the key is when? At 100k using High-SAPS oils or 300-400k using Low-SAPS oils.
There are some other advantages of Low-SAPS oils such as less deposits around rings etc. but that is minor.
So, to get that result, a blender generally has to use polymers and oligomers as well as certain additives that produce less, well, garbage. That hikes up the price.
As for additives such as calcium, Zinc etc. sometimes some Low-SAPS oils have more additives than High-SAPS. Low SAPS or High SAPS does not indicate additive content.

[figure99]

edycol Wanted to get your thoughts on Amsoil’s 0W-30 BMW LL-01FE oil (ignoring price). I drive my F80 M3 about 2-3k miles per year, so long OCIs do not realy matter to me. I do not drive it in winter much, so outdoor temps are hardly ever below 30 deg F. I do not track it… miles are normal street driving and some spirited tour rides with the local car club. Normally I would use an LL-01 oil like BMW TPT 5W-30 over an LL-01 FE oil, but I talked to Amsoil about their 0W-30 medium SAPS oil that is LL-01FE and I’m considering trying it. See specs below… it has an HTHS of 3.5 (maximum for this spec?), KV100 of 12.3 and KV40 of 66.7. Alternatively I was considering their 5W-40, but only the full SAPS version is LL-01, while the medium SAPS version is LL-04. All of their LL-01 oils are full SAPS which I believe are at about 1.1%. My understanding is BMW still specifies LL-01 over LL-04 in the US due to fuel potentially having more sulfur? I believe the 80 ppm max per batch is kind of a loophole around the 10 ppm max target?

Anyway, I appreciate any feedback... I’ve learned some new things from this thread in part thanks to you. I’ve been using other Amsoil products in my power equipment and non-European cars for 25 years and have had great success.

Amsoil Euro Oil Tech Sheet

[edycol]

Originally Posted by figure99

edycol Wanted to get your thoughts on Amsoil’s 0W-30 BMW LL-01FE oil (ignoring price). I drive my F80 M3 about 2-3k miles per year, so long OCIs do not realy matter to me. I do not drive it in winter much, so outdoor temps are hardly ever below 30 deg F. I do not track it… miles are normal street driving and some spirited tour rides with the local car club. Normally I would use an LL-01 oil like BMW TPT 5W-30 over an LL-01 FE oil, but I talked to Amsoil about their 0W-30 medium SAPS oil that is LL-01FE and I’m considering trying it. See specs below… it has an HTHS of 3.5 (maximum for this spec?), KV100 of 12.3 and KV40 of 66.7. Alternatively I was considering their 5W-40, but only the full SAPS version is LL-01, while the medium SAPS version is LL-04. All of their LL-01 oils are full SAPS which I believe are at about 1.1%. My understanding is BMW still specifies LL-01 over LL-04 in the US due to fuel potentially having more sulfur? I believe the 80 ppm max per batch is kind of a loophole around the 10 ppm max target?

Anyway, I appreciate any feedback... I’ve learned some new things from this thread in part thanks to you. I’ve been using other Amsoil products in my power equipment and non-European cars for 25 years and have had great success.

Amsoil Euro Oil Tech Sheet

It is good oil. It is not LL01FE. It is just recommended for it. LL01FE maximum HTHS is 3.49, this one is made to be more in line with LL01 not LL01FE and I would personally stick to oils conforming to LL01 or LL04.
EOT is good oil, but to me, best among those is AEL. It is specified for LL04, but it has exceptional HTHS for W30 oil of 3.6cP and very low Noack. EOT is good stuff, but if my vehicle, I would go AEL.

[figure99]

Originally Posted by edycol

It is good oil. It is not LL01FE. It is just recommended for it. LL01FE maximum HTHS is 3.49, this one is made to be more in line with LL01 not LL01FE and I would personally stick to oils conforming to LL01 or LL04.
EOT is good oil, but to me, best among those is AEL. It is specified for LL04, but it has exceptional HTHS for W30 oil of 3.6cP and very low Noack. EOT is good stuff, but if my vehicle, I would go AEL.

Thanks for the reply. The AEL is what I originally looked at as it matches the viscosity grades I’ve always used. Is there any concerns using a low SAPS LL-04 oil in the US with the current fuel standards?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by figure99

Thanks for the reply. The AEL is what I originally looked at as it matches the viscosity grades I’ve always used. Is there any concerns using a low SAPS LL-04 oil in the US with the current fuel standards?

No. Since 2017 US fuel is ULSG. LL04 is basically thicker version of LL17FE.

[tomas3314]

Think I'm more confused than ever lmao...

Car asks for 0w-30,

- travel 100 miles+ daily, have a one way 50 mile commute to work that I usually drive at 100 mph on open road for an extended amount of time, do long road trips at high speeds and usually push the car. Not tuned, just TMI, CAI, pipes, exhaust, heat exchanger....in California usual heat temps of 70-110 F.

Used Redline, BMW in the past ...

- time for another oil change and must admit extend my intervals more than I would like to but don't have the time since I'd be doing an oil change every month.


Any oil suggestions?

[Chouriço]

Originally Posted by tomas3314

Think I'm more confused than ever lmao...

Car asks for 0w-30,

- travel 100 miles+ daily, have a one way 50 mile commute to work that I usually drive at 100 mph on open road for an extended amount of time, do long road trips at high speeds and usually push the car. Not tuned, just TMI, CAI, pipes, exhaust, heat exchanger....in California usual heat temps of 70-110 F.

Used Redline, BMW in the past ...

- time for another oil change and must admit extend my intervals more than I would like to but don't have the time since I'd be doing an oil change every month.


Any oil suggestions?

I used AI to filter out some of the noise in the thread and skip right to the general consensus

Generally Recommended Oils:

Castrol Edge 0W30 (LL01): He considers this an "absolutely best Euro oil" if available.
Mobil1 0W40 (LL01): This is a good alternative if Castrol Edge 0W30 is not accessible.
Pennzoil Platinum Euro: He often refers to this as a "more sophisticated oil" and specifically recommends the 5W-30 LL-01 version and the 5W-40. He also mentions that Motomaster oil in Canada is repackaged Pennzoil and suggests checking if their 0W40 is LL01 approved.
Motul X-Cess 5W40 Gen2: This is a frequently recommended oil, especially after the warranty period.
Oils for Track Use:

For occasional track use, he suggests Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Castrol Edge 0W40, Mobil1 0W40, and Motul X-Cess 5W40.
For dedicated track cars, he recommends Motul 5W40 or 10W40 300V.
Oils to Consider Based on Approvals:

He emphasizes the importance of BMW LL-01 approval for oils.
For track use, he advises looking for oils with Porsche A40 approval in addition to LL-01 and MB 229.5.
Oils He is Less Enthusiastic About:

Liqui Moly: While not outright negative, he considers it "mediocre stuff" compared to Pennzoil Platinum Euro. He also states that their marketing is better than their oil quality.
He generally advises against using 0W-20 and suggests that BMW's switch to this grade was primarily for emissions and fuel economy rather than engine longevity.
Key Considerations:

HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) value: He states that this is more important than the grade (viscosity) of the oil.
Oil Change Interval (OCI): He believes that shorter oil change intervals (around 10,000 km or less) are more important than using the absolute best oil with extended intervals.
Base Stocks and Additives: He acknowledges that the quality of base stocks and additive packages significantly impacts oil performance.
Oil Analysis (UOA): He recommends doing used oil analysis, including TBN (Total Base Number) and TAN (Total Acid Number), to understand the oil's condition and establish trends over multiple samples.
In summary, "edycol" doesn't have one definitive favorite oil, but he consistently recommends Castrol Edge 0W30, Mobil1 0W40, and various Pennzoil Platinum Euro grades for general use, and Motul 300V for dedicated track applications, while emphasizing the importance of BMW LL-01 and Porsche A40 approvals, as well as considering HTHS values and oil analysis.

[tomas3314]

Originally Posted by s54_guy

I used AI to filter out some of the noise in the thread and skip right to the general consensus

Generally Recommended Oils:

Castrol Edge 0W30 (LL01): He considers this an "absolutely best Euro oil" if available.
Mobil1 0W40 (LL01): This is a good alternative if Castrol Edge 0W30 is not accessible.
Pennzoil Platinum Euro: He often refers to this as a "more sophisticated oil" and specifically recommends the 5W-30 LL-01 version and the 5W-40. He also mentions that Motomaster oil in Canada is repackaged Pennzoil and suggests checking if their 0W40 is LL01 approved.
Motul X-Cess 5W40 Gen2: This is a frequently recommended oil, especially after the warranty period.
Oils for Track Use:

For occasional track use, he suggests Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Castrol Edge 0W40, Mobil1 0W40, and Motul X-Cess 5W40.
For dedicated track cars, he recommends Motul 5W40 or 10W40 300V.
Oils to Consider Based on Approvals:

He emphasizes the importance of BMW LL-01 approval for oils.
For track use, he advises looking for oils with Porsche A40 approval in addition to LL-01 and MB 229.5.
Oils He is Less Enthusiastic About:

Liqui Moly: While not outright negative, he considers it "mediocre stuff" compared to Pennzoil Platinum Euro. He also states that their marketing is better than their oil quality.
He generally advises against using 0W-20 and suggests that BMW's switch to this grade was primarily for emissions and fuel economy rather than engine longevity.
Key Considerations:

HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) value: He states that this is more important than the grade (viscosity) of [...]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate that insight and recommendations, truly much easier read than understanding 100 different view points. I will definately look to get my hands on some of that stuff! Thanks for your reply.

[HotRodM4]

Anyone else run Bimmerworld’s 10w40 kit?

https://www.bimmerworld.com/Engine/E...ilter-Kit.html