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      08-06-2013, 12:09 AM   #89
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Great looking car ... We already made a spot for it at our shop
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      08-06-2013, 12:25 AM   #90
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Certainly fits with the rest of current M models.
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      08-06-2013, 12:28 AM   #91
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I am surprised to see that they uncovered the fenders
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      08-06-2013, 12:37 AM   #92
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Same ugly exposed exhaust.
For such a car and such a brand that is poor....

I was admiring last week a beautiful designed exhaust in a car that cost three times less...
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      08-06-2013, 12:50 AM   #93
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Why is it right hand drive?
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      08-06-2013, 12:51 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The i3 is full of CFRP including the passenger cell and it's about half the price of an M3. Just saying.
There has been some very promising information about the use of composites in the i3. That bodes well for the M4/M3. However, the pricing and thus design choices are almost ALL about volume. I don't know sales volumes projections for the i3 but the M3 will probably (again) be targeting about 100,000 cars over its entire lifespan of 5-7 years. This is not a huge volume and it is made inexpensively by sharing a great deal of parts in common with the base model. Yes many key parts are changed but many including key things like the engine block will be common parts. You can't save money by making a bunch of low volume major structural components from CF. As mentioned in earlier discussions here likely components are things like non structural/non crash critical parts such as the transmission tunnel, firewall, rear wall of the trunk, rear "package" shelf frame, etc. Bumper components are already composite (kevlar IIRC not CF) and the new cars doors will likely be aluminum shells, not composite.
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      08-06-2013, 01:47 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
There has been some very promising information about the use of composites in the i3. That bodes well for the M4/M3. However, the pricing and thus design choices are almost ALL about volume. I don't know sales volumes projections for the i3 but the M3 will probably (again) be targeting about 100,000 cars over its entire lifespan of 5-7 years. This is not a huge volume and it is made inexpensively by sharing a great deal of parts in common with the base model. Yes many key parts are changed but many including key things like the engine block will be common parts. You can't save money by making a bunch of low volume major structural components from CF. As mentioned in earlier discussions here likely components are things like non structural/non crash critical parts such as the transmission tunnel, firewall, rear wall of the trunk, rear "package" shelf frame, etc. Bumper components are already composite (kevlar IIRC not CF) and the new cars doors will likely be aluminum shells, not composite.
I think the M chief gave pretty specific details on what areas have been lightened vs the base car. There are many here including yourself though who thinks the car is going to be super expensive with any meaningful use of CFRP as in for example the seats and that just minimum weight can be saved compared to the E9X M3. I'm just saying that BMW has shown with the i3 that they can produce and sell major CFRP constructions to a very modest price. I don't think the dogma that CFRP in any meaningful quantity will make a car like the M3 cost prohibitive is true any more for BMW. They have now invested in tools, technology and supplier chains to the point that it's production ready. The main plant is here in Moses Lake. I know your stance and explanations but I don't share them.

I think the curb weight will start with 33 when configured optimally. We'll see.

Last edited by solstice; 08-06-2013 at 02:01 AM..
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      08-06-2013, 01:49 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The i3 is full of CFRP including the passenger cell and it's about half the price of an M3. Just saying.
There has been some very promising information about the use of composites in the i3. That bodes well for the M4/M3. However, the pricing and thus design choices are almost ALL about volume. I don't know sales volumes projections for the i3 but the M3 will probably (again) be targeting about 100,000 cars over its entire lifespan of 5-7 years. This is not a huge volume and it is made inexpensively by sharing a great deal of parts in common with the base model. Yes many key parts are changed but many including key things like the engine block will be common parts. You can't save money by making a bunch of low volume major structural components from CF. As mentioned in earlier discussions here likely components are things like non structural/non crash critical parts such as the transmission tunnel, firewall, rear wall of the trunk, rear "package" shelf frame, etc. Bumper components are already composite (kevlar IIRC not CF) and the new cars doors will likely be aluminum shells, not composite.
Good point!
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      08-06-2013, 02:22 AM   #97
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+1

If BMW wants they can make the M3/M4 a lot lighter with CFRP use. They can also contain the cost side of the equation as can be seen with i3. Problem is that they will not do it. Maybe later they will sell more expensive variants of M3/M4 with greater CFRP use for thousands more as some special edition models.



Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think the M chief gave pretty specific details on what areas have been lightened vs the base car. There are many here including yourself though who thinks the car is going to be super expensive with any meaningful use of CFRP as in for example the seats and that just minimum weight can be saved compared to the E9X M3. I'm just saying that BMW has shown with the i3 that they can produce and sell major CFRP constructions to a very modest price. I don't think the dogma that CFRP in any meaningful quantity will make a car like the M3 cost prohibitive is true any more for BMW. They have now invested in tools, technology and supplier chains to the point that it's production ready. The main plant is here in Moses Lake. I know your stance and explanations but I don't share them.

I think the curb weight will start with 33 when configured optimally. We'll see.
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      08-06-2013, 02:32 AM   #98
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+1

It is an M car it needs to have a bit of performance flare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB View Post
I love the power dome. I think it is a great feature. Everybody is entitled to there own opinion, but things like the power dome, side gills, and carbon fiber roof are great features that you don't see on every car out there.
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      08-06-2013, 04:22 AM   #99
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I like the wide track from the rear. the car is going to be fast as hell especially once tuners get a hold of it.
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      08-06-2013, 05:03 AM   #100
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Are we sure that isn't the X3M? Thing looks like a crossover from the back.
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      08-06-2013, 05:37 AM   #101
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Did anyone else notice that in Picture 7, the bottom of the gauges are open? On all 3/4 Series so far the rings have been closed and the display only works on the right (BMW cost cutting I guess) but here it appears they may have a display spanning both gauges...

One can hope...
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      08-06-2013, 06:40 AM   #102
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Interesting details, it is opened more The new M3, soon...
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      08-06-2013, 07:27 AM   #103
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      08-06-2013, 09:04 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viobruin View Post
Power dome makes me a little sad. Was hoping BMW would go back to making it flow with the lines of the hood like the e46 M3. Instead, they made it like the e92 M3 and, alas, it continues to look like a giant zit.
Can always tell which people don't even own or have experience with an m3. The powerdome as mentioned as the size it was as it is needed to squeeze in a v8 with huge trumpets on individual throttle bodies. It barely clears as it is. The e46m3 had no size it needed to be because it was not needed. So irrelevant.

I wish the new m3 would not have it since its not a functional component. The e90 had non-functional side gills which looked great and were more style over function anyway but still not ideal. The e90 m3 had functional hood vents (one of them but other for symmetry and many take the rubber lining off and use it for extra engine cooling), functional buldge on hood.

Maybe we will be surprised by some trick intake manifold that necessitates a little bulge. Who knows. Hope this car gets some functional brake vents for once. Would be super cheap but if they could create a really nice path to the rotors to cool would be great.
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      08-06-2013, 09:14 AM   #105
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Every time I see these camo images it reminds me of being at a Los Vegas strip show but a lot slower.

BMW can you please just take all of the camo off at once.
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      08-06-2013, 09:39 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
BMW can you please just take all of the camo off at once.
In 12 days at the Pebble Beach Concours, they will.
Should be all kinds of pictures floating around after the 18th. Except for any under the hood, that is.
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      08-06-2013, 10:12 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I'm just saying that BMW has shown with the i3 that they can produce and sell major CFRP constructions to a very modest price. I don't think the dogma that CFRP in any meaningful quantity will make a car like the M3 cost prohibitive is true any more for BMW.
You make fair points.

My cautiousness with respect to the use of carbon fiber for the M models comes as much from integration costs as it does materials and manufacturing costs.

It is true that the i3 shows us what is possible for CFRP in a production car. However, it is not subject to the same constraints that an F3x-cum-F8x is. Sometimes it is easier to bulldoze an old building than it is to strip it down and retrofit it with updated materials and facilities. Or, it is easier to build an autonomous robot than a cyborg. Or whatever other analogy has application here. Granted, the F3x is not old - it's brand new. But it does use old materials and old processes - whose cost has been amortized over years if not decades to get to where they are today. And a unibody is a highly optimized structure - you can't just go swapping out parts and just expect it can maintain integrity. You have to do all manner of costly analysis. Remember, though it is "stronger than steel" at least in tensile strength (and in some other ways), carbon fiber has distinct properties such as brittleness.

So, I am skeptical. The F8x chassis will be different from an F3x - that's most likely why there's the name change. And, yes, the two will have been designed in tandem to allow for flexibility in materials and construction. But you can't balloon the cost of the 3 Series out of control while chasing the ultimate low volume performance variant. Sure, carbon fiber seats, body panels, chassis components. But, there almost surely will be no load bearing members of the unibody in CF. That doesn't mean you can not use CF for parts of it whose purpose is solely to attach body panels to. But again, these cars are built on a very purposeful foundation - there isn't much there in the unibody that isn't doing something for structural integrity.

None of this means we can't have a 3300 lb M3. But, citing our friend the i3 is not necessarily capturing the full story.
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      08-06-2013, 10:49 AM   #108
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mkoesel,I think you got me wrong. I think the M-boss was quite open with where weight is saved and what materials is used in the different areas. My comment was mostly in regards to the fear that the car will be super expensive if any significant use of CFRP and the notion that hardly any weight can be saved from the E9X and that 3300 lbs is impossible at a reasonable price point. I don't expect a Sesto Elemento chassi but I think some of you will be surprised. With a CFRP trunk, seats and CF roof I think they already have "a lot" of CF in what we can pretty much lock down. With significant use of aluminum and magnesium in some strategic areas being confirmed as well it's reason for optimism IMO.

Last edited by solstice; 08-06-2013 at 10:55 AM..
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      08-06-2013, 11:13 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong
Quote:
Originally Posted by viobruin View Post
Power dome makes me a little sad. Was hoping BMW would go back to making it flow with the lines of the hood like the e46 M3. Instead, they made it like the e92 M3 and, alas, it continues to look like a giant zit.
Can always tell which people don't even own or have experience with an m3. The powerdome as mentioned as the size it was as it is needed to squeeze in a v8 with huge trumpets on individual throttle bodies. It barely clears as it is. The e46m3 had no size it needed to be because it was not needed. So irrelevant.

I wish the new m3 would not have it since its not a functional component. The e90 had non-functional side gills which looked great and were more style over function anyway but still not ideal. The e90 m3 had functional hood vents (one of them but other for symmetry and many take the rubber lining off and use it for extra engine cooling), functional buldge on hood.

Maybe we will be surprised by some trick intake manifold that necessitates a little bulge. Who knows. Hope this car gets some functional brake vents for once. Would be super cheap but if they could create a really nice path to the rotors to cool would be great.
Having an opinion on styling tells nothing of whether someone owns or has experienced an M3. I would hope the designers at BMW are skilled enough to design a power dome that both clears the engine and flows with the lines of the car.

The fact that the M4 will apparently not even need a functional power dome makes the design even more egregious, as it means that BMW had full liberty to design it without any of the constraints of functionality.
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      08-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #110
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ibid on the back end of the M4 - big ass fender flairs, a silly cool CSL style decklid and the signature quad pipes. Super excited.

Is the unveiling still scheduled for next weekend at Pebble Beach or do we have to wait until September for the Detroit Auto Show?
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