Interview w/ M chief engineer Biermann hints at M3/M4 0-60 in 4.3 seconds and 26 MPG

[solstice]

Originally Posted by swamp2

My earliest estimate/calculation of the car's weight was about 3590 back in December of 2010...

This could still be bang on. The caveat with our 80kg less is "similarly equipped". Say that the lowest equipment level on the F82 includes 62lbs worth on options not on the base E92... The fly in that soup is the below 1500 kg Kerb weight I guess.

[basscadet]

BMW has gone on record to say that the F80 will weigh 80kg less than the E90. This is about 175 lbs. This is nice that they're shaving weight off the car, but with power staying relatively the same (15hp is not seat-of-the-pants noticeable) it really is down to the significant torque increase where we will notice the change. I don't think this will be the monumental improvement in performance we got with the E36->E46 or with the E39->E60.

This is why the tunability of this car is so important to me. If I can't extract significant gains out of this engine with a tune it's just going to be really hard for me to sign the dotted line at the dealership. For $70k+ I expect a car that is as fast as a Mustang GT or a base 911 and nearly as fast as a base Corvette, but with additional luxury and style. Otherwise, I will look for two cars(my DD beater + Corvette) to offer what I hope to find in a single one (M3).

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My E92 has most of the common options (DCT, iDrive, power seats, heated seats, fold down back seat, adjustable lumbar and side bolsters, premium sound, EDC, leather, carbon roof) and weighed 3688lbs with a full tank.

Getting pretty close to that 3704lbs...

And this is without driver, right?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by basscadet

And this is without driver, right?

Yes, without driver. But with my track wheels and tires; which are about 4lb lighter per corner compared to my 220M/PSS street setup. So adding the 16lb brings us even closer to (not to say bang on) the 3704lb.

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by basscadet

For $70k+ I expect a car that is as fast as a Mustang GT or a base 911 and nearly as fast as a base Corvette, but with additional luxury and style. Otherwise, I will look for two cars(my DD beater + Corvette) to offer what I hope to find in a single one (M3).

Well said. I'm thinking along similar lines.

Also, if there isn't a big gap over the old model then it really does push me towards finding a good used example out there at a significant savings. I'll take the relatively small performance difference (assuming it is such) in exchange for the NA engine and some extra peace of mind in owning the last MY of a model.

[paddy335]

The fact of the matter is that it is going to be the equivalent of a full grown adult lighter, have more power, way higher and more accessible torque, with some trick bits of drivetrain (rotational mass bits).

It is going to be significantly quicker in the real world than the current car. And easier to obtain that quickness, more often.

It will annihilate the current car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by basscadet

BMW has gone on record to say that the F80 will weigh 80kg less than the E90. This is about 175 lbs. This is nice that they're shaving weight off the car, but with power staying relatively the same (15hp is not seat-of-the-pants noticeable) it really is down to the significant torque increase where we will notice the change. I don't think this will be the monumental improvement in performance we got with the E36->E46 or with the E39->E60.

This is why the tunability of this car is so important to me. If I can't extract significant gains out of this engine with a tune it's just going to be really hard for me to sign the dotted line at the dealership. For $70k+ I expect a car that is as fast as a Mustang GT or a base 911 and nearly as fast as a base Corvette, but with additional luxury and style. Otherwise, I will look for two cars(my DD beater + Corvette) to offer what I hope to find in a single one (M3).

It is more like 10hp on paper. I am guessing that the 430hp number that is quoted is DIN, so it needs to be compared to the 420hp DIN of the S65.

This, combined with the weight discussion, is why I have been saying in other threads that, on paper, the F8X does not show a big power to weight advantage compared to the E9X. The top performing model is the DCT. Assuming that the 80kg reduction applies to a 6MT (which contributes to a 26lb saving), the DCT F8X will only have a 150lb advantage compared to a DCT E9X. With a 165lb driver (75kg), it will only have a 6% improvement in power to weight. As a comparison, the E9X brought us a 13% improvement in power to weight vs the E46. With the light bolt on mods I have on my car, I am probably very close to the F8X top power to weight figure. This is all on paper though...

A big advantage the S55 has over the S65 is the broad power plateau. The S55 will be putting down more average power during an acceleration run vs the S65.

Further, IMO, the S55 is likely under rated by a good 20 to 30 hp, giving it a further advantage.

[solstice]

"It will annihilate the current car."

It likely will at the drag strip and on the ring where guts, power and top speed is playing a major rule and in the hands of Bruno Spengler and co. but I'm less sure you will annihilate E9X M3 drivers at your local track. The E90 M3 is one of the easiest car I've ever driven to extract the maximum out of and consistently balance on the edge. It makes everyone a better driver with it's supremely predictable and linear power delivery, stable steering, grip feedback and overall balance. I doubt the new car will match it in all those categories and power to weight while important is not everything especially not for amateur drivers.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by solstice

"It will annihilate the current car."

It likely will at the drag strip and on the ring where guts, power and top speed is playing a major rule and in the hands of Bruno Spengler and co. but I'm less sure you will annihilate E9X M3 drivers at your local track. The E90 M3 is one of the easiest car I've ever driven to extract the maximum out of and consistently balance on the edge. It makes everyone a better driver with it's supremely predictable and linear power delivery, stable steering, grip feedback and overall balance. I doubt the new car will match it in all those categories and power to weight while important is not everything especially not for amateur drivers.

I will be seriously surprised if it doesn't exceed the current car in most if not all those categories. I eagerly await The reviews

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Strongly agree.

No cars perform acceleration runs without a driver. That leads me to say that weights should always be reported with driver, with fluids, 90% or 100% fuel (what ever you like). I'm not too fussed about 7 kg of cargo.

There is not a chance in hell that we'll see a single new M4 with driver weigh in at less than 1500 kg...

1500 kg with no driver, no DCT, no cargo is within about 10 lbs of "80 kg lighter than" 3704 lb assuming it includes DCT. Specifically

1500 + 68(driver) + 7(cargo) + 20(DCT) + 80(difference) = 1675 kg = 3692 lb. I sure hope the 1500 kg figure does not include CSiC brakes... Thus APPLES TO APPLES for a US DCT car is the following:

E92 DCT M3: 3704 lb
F82 DCT M4: 3528 lb (again simply 80 kg less)

My earliest estimate/calculation of the car's weight was about 3590 back in December of 2010...

I am guessing that the 80kg reduction includes the 12kg from the improved 6MT. So only a 68kg reduction for a DCT car.

E92 M3: 3704 lb
F82 M4: 3554 lb (simply 68 kg less)

Even closer to your original estimate of 3590

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by paddy335

I will be seriously surprised if it doesn't exceed the current car in most if not all those categories. I eagerly await The reviews

You never know. Maybe the new corporate strategy is to, for the first time ever, make a new generation that doesn't annihilate the previous one. That way, the TRUE enthusiasts who have E9X's could strongly endorse the 2021 model and return from the GT3's they all bought. And by then, everyone will realize that performance means nothing. It's all about the sound.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am guessing that the 80kg reduction includes the 12kg from the improved 6MT. So only a 68kg reduction for a DCT car.

E92 M3: 3704 lb
F82 M4: 3554 lb (simply 68 kg less)

Even closer to your original estimate of 3590

And another 10 lbs or so for standard I-drive. That's what I meant with 80 kg similary equipped. If the F82 has I-drive standard it's weight need to be added to the 3704 lbs before subtracting 80 kg and for any other equipment that is now standard that wasn't on the E92.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by paddy335

I will be seriously surprised if it doesn't exceed the current car in most if not all those categories. I eagerly await The reviews

I hope you are right. The car sure looks properly fast in the hands of BMWs test drivers no doubt about it. I'm just not sure it is ad easy to consistently drive fast in the hands of amateurs as the E90/2 is. Faster, likely but i doubt there will be the same annihilation on local amateur level as the professional times will show. We can only hope and wait until we can drive one.

[Kadema]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is more like 10hp on paper. I am guessing that the 430hp number that is quoted is DIN, so it needs to be compared to the 420hp DIN of the S65.

I think there's a chance that it will be slightly over 430ps/424hp. IIRC BMW said "over 430ps" in their end of september revelation of technical details, plus if you could get a glimpse on the power/torque display on the nav screen in some videos or photos, it seemed to go up to 320kW (435ps/429hp). On the other hand this wouldn't be the first time me beeing overly optimistic concerning technical data of the new m3/4.

[scrammer]

Please remember there is a little thing called "audible horse power" (AHP) that the driver actually lives with everyday while driving!

For every additional actual HP the new turbo M3/4 gains ... it WILL loose two in the AHP department!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

This, combined with the weight discussion, is why I have been saying in other threads that, on paper, the F8X does not show a big power to weight advantage compared to the E9X. The top performing model is the DCT. Assuming that the 80kg reduction applies to a 6MT (which contributes to a 26lb saving), the DCT F8X will only have a 150lb advantage compared to a DCT E9X. With a 175lb driver, it will only have a 6% improvement in power to weight. As a comparison, the E9X brought us a 13% improvement in power to weight vs the E46.

...

Further, IMO, the S55 is likely under rated by a good 20 to 30 hp, giving it a further advantage.

I suppose we are beating the dead horse here but I agree the car will almost for sure have 20-30 hp more than the speced 430 hp. Absolutely all tests and simulation point to underratings for both the 335i and F10 M5 (probably other BMW FI models follow suit as well). Assuming it only has the lower figure, 450 hp, that will place its power to weight advantage advantage over the E92 right about 14%.

Add in a very likely new generation of tires, reduced drivetrain inertia, lower parasitic losses (including from electric power steering), improved launch control, lower center of gravity, improved rear axle subframe, revised suspension and yes indeed

Originally Posted by paddy335

It will annihilate the current car.

And BMW will likely be able to continue to claim besting competitors with lower power than they provide through "chassis magic" like 50-50 weight balance or other such nonsense when it's still almost entirely about power to weight...

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And BMW will likely be able to continue to claim besting competitors with lower power than they provide through "chassis magic" like 50-50 weight balance or other such nonsense when it's still almost entirely about power to weight...

Cynical, but probably a very shrewd insight into the rationale for their constant under reporting on power output

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by paddy335

Cynical, but probably a very shrewd insight into the rationale for their constant under reporting on power output

Thanks.

I've definitely got some love/hate going with BMW... I've owned every M3 except the E30. I'm on the fence about the new M4 but thus far am leaning away from it. Certainly much of this dichotomy stems from some engineering insight and aversion to the latitude that BMW marketing takes. In the end I believe I am a fan, but certainly not a fanboy.

[solstice]

Power to weight is important but it's not almost everything. Take a 991 C2S and the M5 both modern cars one severly underrated with an already power to weight advantage still it is crushed by the car with worse power to weight on the track. On the drag strip and in the straight line the M5 does better. Then look at two almost identical power to weight cars as the M5 and the GT-R ( gen. 1 ) both likely under rated. The GT-R crushes the M5 in every measure. It's not remotely close. Some cars do have a bit more "magic" than others to them. iMO the E90/2 is such a car, it remains to be seen if the F8X is. Ring footage suggest that it is, at least in the hands of professionals.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is more like 10hp on paper. I am guessing that the 430hp number that is quoted is DIN, so it needs to be compared to the 420hp DIN of the S65.

This, combined with the weight discussion, is why I have been saying in other threads that, on paper, the F8X does not show a big power to weight advantage compared to the E9X. The top performing model is the DCT. Assuming that the 80kg reduction applies to a 6MT (which contributes to a 26lb saving), the DCT F8X will only have a 150lb advantage compared to a DCT E9X. With a 175lb driver, it will only have a 6% improvement in power to weight. As a comparison, the E9X brought us a 13% improvement in power to weight vs the E46. With the light bolt on mods I have on my car, I am probably very close to the F8X top power to weight figure. This is all on paper though...

A big advantage the S55 has over the S65 is the broad power plateau. The S55 will be putting down more average power during an acceleration run vs the S65.

Further, IMO, the S55 is likely under rated by a good 20 to 30 hp, giving it a further advantage.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am guessing that the 80kg reduction includes the 12kg from the improved 6MT. So only a 68kg reduction for a DCT car.

E92 M3: 3704 lb
F82 M4: 3554 lb (simply 68 kg less)

Even closer to your original estimate of 3590

BMW has said that the F8x will be 80kg lighter than a comparably specced E9x.

Where do we get the "if it has a DCT it will only be 68kg lighter" from

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And BMW will likely be able to continue to claim besting competitors with lower power than they provide through "chassis magic" like 50-50 weight balance or other such nonsense when it's still almost entirely about power to weight...

You sure you want a M3? Seems like a good old muscle car suits you better. No need to have a light and nimble chassis, brute accelerative force is what matters... Because a light and nimble chassis is apparently just "nonsense"...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

BMW has said that the F8x will be 80kg lighter than a comparably specced E9x.

Where do we get the "if it has a DCT it will only be 68kg lighter" from

It is speculation on my part, but I am guessing that BMW is referring to comparably specced 6MT; and the 6MT has a 12kg advertised weight saving compared to the previous 6MT. I am not even taking into account that the new beefed-up version of the DCT may also be slightly heavier than the previous gen (BWW has been very hush in that department).

The weight of the F8X has been core to the whole marketing campaign. If I were working at BMW marketing, I would definitely be taking advantage of the 6MT weight saving to brag about the total weight saving...