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      09-15-2015, 11:54 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BC_Garrett View Post
I could offer some suggestions but I'd be slightly biased for obvious reasons. I will say that we (BC Racing) do offer custom setups at no additional charge. This includes damper lengths, spring rates, spring lengths, valving etc....So besides the rates and valving we have determined to be a great balance for these cars based on our testing overseas along with on a number of cars here in the states our customers can spec out a kit in a anyway they like.

In being completely fair I think the best way to do this is to just give you as much information as possible to allow yourself to make an informed decision on your own rather than fall for a sales pitch and have it be something that isn't quite what you want. As I said if you have any specific questions please let me know and i'll try and give you as honest of an answer to it as possible



To be honest I don't have very much first hand experience with those units. I'd have to check later but from memory the factory front spring is about 185lbs, so 300% increase would bring it just over 550lbs (or almost 10kg). If this is correct i'm not sure if I would agree with the statement that its "just as comfortable". There really just isn't a way to use a much higher spring rate and create a damper to control those oscillations without a change in cabin sensation.

While some of us may not mind the ride quality at this rate- its far from a OEM feel. What many people find very comfortable is an overall soft ride, one that "soaks" up all the small bumps in the road without very much sensation being transferred into chassis. Swapping to anything in the ballpark of 9-10kg will not feel like that at all...a LOT more is transferred and can be felt by the drivers and passengers of the car. That being said this is a lot closer to where you would want to be for maximum performance out of your car on street tires.

As I mentioned before your entire setup is always going to be a balance filled with compromises...many of us may be willing to give up comfort (soft) for performance or vice versa but regardless you need to figure out what you would be comfortable with. I've seen people get upset by how stiff their lowering springs are and people who think their custom coilovers are not stiff enough (solely speaking on driver feel on the street). I would like to add that people should not get bouncy (improperly valved setup or damaged/blown setup) confused with stiff or firm, and by no means do I want to push people away from stiffer setups (relative to factory)..they just factually do change how the car feels.

Also, as a rule it's probably better that most who are not familiar with setting up a cars suspension avoid 3 and 4 way adjustable setups. Not because they are inferior in anyway but because it is simply overkill, and they are just wasting money if they never plan to really mess with it and just have a shop toss it on at whatever it came set to from the factory. Having 3 or even 4 way suspension is great at the track, giving drivers the ability to adjust high and low speed settings allow you to truly fine tune your car for the conditions/track you are driving in. When these adjustments are not fully understood by the driver they usually will simply not adjust it and will not have any significant increase in performance or feel over well built single or 2way adjustable setup.
Thank you Garrett for trying to be as unbiased in your post as possible. I agree with you on the sentiment that 10k is WAY too stiff for the front. I have experience with 10k Swift springs on a CKS kit and it was almost unbearable after a while. I eventually bought a set of 6k Swifts and it alleviated much of the stiffness. But I would go even further in saying that a 4k or 5k linear spring would work well with the BC Racing coilover.

It's important to note that BC Racing coilovers have a different methodology in dialing in ride height. Most coilover kits have a threaded shock body that lowers/raises the perch to get the determined ride height. The downside to this is that as you lower the perch, you are also subtracting from the shock travel (compression).

The way BC Racing (and Ohlins RT) coilovers dial in ride height is to lower the entire shock body into the carrier while the perch is set to a predetermined preload. The plus side to this set up is that you can lower the car to extreme amount while still retaining the full shock travel. The potential down-side of this set up is that you get less "droop" (especially if you use high rated springs on the front). Not "drop", "droop". In laymen's terms, droop is how much the wheel will hang when the suspension has no load on it, or decompression or rebound amount. Droop might not seem important, but it actually is when you're driving on the street (or rally racing for that matter). If you don't have enough droop, the car might fly over bumps as opposed to roll over them (literally, your wheel will be airborne. See attached pic of M3 GTR hitting curb vs Subaru STI rally car below). A good amount of droop will give you more traction on bumpy roads.

In my experience, putting a 10k spring on this kind of suspension set up pretty much eliminates all usable droop because you have to lower the preload really far down the carrier to achieve a lowered ride-height. So it's imperative that you get a reasonable spring rate; unless you only care about racing on a smooth track. To me, reasonable is 4k - 6k on the front and BC should have no problems valving their dampers to match that rate.

The point is that all suspension (even OEM) is a collection of compromises. But someone who is knowledgable can minimize the compromises and get closer to what they desire out of their suspension.

I'm sorry if my response is cobbled together poorly; I need coffee. If I confused anyone, please ask and I'll try to clarify with more elegance next time.






Last edited by x.shell; 09-15-2015 at 12:29 PM..
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      09-15-2015, 12:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex o View Post
Thank you Garrett for trying to be as unbiased in your post as possible. I agree with you on the sentiment that 10k is WAY too stiff for the front. I have experience with 10k Swift springs on a CKS kit and it was almost unbearable after a while. I eventually bought a set of 6k Swifts and it alleviated much of the stiffness. But I would go even further in saying that a 4k or 5k linear spring would work well with the BC Racing coilover.

It's important to note that BC Racing coilovers have a different methodology in dialing in ride height. Most coilover kits have a threaded shock body that lowers/raises the perch to get the determined ride height. The downside to this is that as you lower the perch, you are also subtracting from the shock travel (compression).

The way BC Racing (and Ohlins RT) coilovers dial in ride height is to lower the entire shock body into the carrier while the perch is set to a predetermined preload. The plus side to this set up is that you can lower the car to extreme amount while still retaining the full shock travel. The potential down-side of this set up is that you get less "droop" (especially if you use high rated springs on the front). Not "drop", "droop". In laymen's terms, droop is how much the wheel will hang when the suspension has no load on it, or decompression or rebound amount. Droop might not seem important, but it actually is when you're driving on the street (or rally racing for that matter). If you don't have enough droop, the car might fly over bumps as opposed to roll over them (literally, your wheel will be airborne. See attached pic of M3 GTR hitting curb vs Subaru STI rally car below). A good amount of droop will give you more traction on bumpy roads.

In my experience, putting a 10k spring on this kind of suspension set up pretty much eliminates all usable droop. So it's imperative that you get a reasonable spring rate; unless you only care about racing on a smooth track. To me, reasonable is 4k - 6k on the front and BC should have no problems valving their dampers to match that rate.

The point is that all suspension (even OEM) is a collection of compromises. But someone who is knowledgable can minimize the compromises and get closer to what they desire out of their suspension.
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

For me personally depending on the piston design used in the damper to control it or where you set the damper I personally find 8-10kg under the front of these cars very streetable for a daily setup...but that is my own preference. I couldn't agree more with how all of this is a compromise and the best setup is one you pick out yourself making an informed decision. To be honest that's the entire reason I joined and now started posting was to try and help put the info out there and help the members make more informed buying decisions (regardless if its our products or someone else).

I think the word we are looking for is "sag". You don't hear this term as much in reference to cars but anyone familiar with motorcycle setups will instantly know what it is. When using a singular linear spring the distance the wheel could drop back down before the wheel lifts off the ground would be the same as the amount of sag the setup has- or the distance the cars weight compresses the spring. For illustration purposes we can average and round the weight of the front corner of f82 to around 950lbs. so if you were to use a 10kg spring (560lbs) the car would sag about 1.7 inches. (again I say roughly because there is number of other factors that should be considered if we were trying to get a 100% accurate number). So this 1.7 inches would be distance the tire/suspension could droop back down before the wheel raised off the ground if we went over a bump.

Simply lowering your spring rate to gain more droop is yet again another compromise and not something that always makes sense. A helper spring could be utilized to give more suspension droop in a setup that doesn't naturally have much (higher spring rates)....but I also wouldn't just add helpers to all setups as this add length to your spring setup which then takes away from wheel and tire backspacing (you can't run as big of a tire on factory fender car).

We also use helper springs a lot here for rwd setups built for drag racing. There is a number of worlds fastest (for a given chassis) street car setups we've build where helper springs are utilized for more travel. When rwd drag cars launch and get large amounts of weight transfer the extra travel down allows the front wheels to stay in contact with the ground (completely or more depending on the car) giving the driver more control allowing them to maintain steering control where it would otherwise be lost.

Companies who offer setups without independent preload and height adjustments usually add helper springs to their setup to maintain preload (and eliminate noise and other issues associated with drooping the spring to change ride height).

I agree rebound/droop is very important, but having a TON isn't always necessary and can sometimes have a negative impact overall.

Again it can't be stressed enough, there is no "best" without a context, and even then its very subjective. The best racing suspension is not going to be fun for the street or even work well (since it was setup for lighter car with more mechanical grip)...and the best street suspension will just bottom out all over the track in a full race car.
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      09-15-2015, 01:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC_Garrett View Post
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

For me personally depending on the piston design used in the damper to control it or where you set the damper I personally find 8-10kg under the front of these cars very streetable for a daily setup...but that is my own preference. I couldn't agree more with how all of this is a compromise and the best setup is one you pick out yourself making an informed decision. To be honest that's the entire reason I joined and now started posting was to try and help put the info out there and help the members make more informed buying decisions (regardless if its our products or someone else).

I think the word we are looking for is "sag". You don't hear this term as much in reference to cars but anyone familiar with motorcycle setups will instantly know what it is. When using a singular linear spring the distance the wheel could drop back down before the wheel lifts off the ground would be the same as the amount of sag the setup has- or the distance the cars weight compresses the spring. For illustration purposes we can average and round the weight of the front corner of f82 to around 950lbs. so if you were to use a 10kg spring (560lbs) the car would sag about 1.7 inches. (again I say roughly because there is number of other factors that should be considered if we were trying to get a 100% accurate number). So this 1.7 inches would be distance the tire/suspension could droop back down before the wheel raised off the ground if we went over a bump.

Simply lowering your spring rate to gain more droop is yet again another compromise and not something that always makes sense. A helper spring could be utilized to give more suspension droop in a setup that doesn't naturally have much (higher spring rates)....but I also wouldn't just add helpers to all setups as this add length to your spring setup which then takes away from wheel and tire backspacing (you can't run as big of a tire on factory fender car).

We also use helper springs a lot here for rwd setups built for drag racing. There is a number of worlds fastest (for a given chassis) street car setups we've build where helper springs are utilized for more travel. When rwd drag cars launch and get large amounts of weight transfer the extra travel down allows the front wheels to stay in contact with the ground (completely or more depending on the car) giving the driver more control allowing them to maintain steering control where it would otherwise be lost.

Companies who offer setups without independent preload and height adjustments usually add helper springs to their setup to maintain preload (and eliminate noise and other issues associated with drooping the spring to change ride height).

I agree rebound/droop is very important, but having a TON isn't always necessary and can sometimes have a negative impact overall.

Again it can't be stressed enough, there is no "best" without a context, and even then its very subjective. The best racing suspension is not going to be fun for the street or even work well (since it was setup for lighter car with more mechanical grip)...and the best street suspension will just bottom out all over the track in a full race car.
Very good conversation here. I'm glad you joined and have been contributing very good information to the forum. It's refreshing.

One small note to point out about helper springs and coilover kits. All the coilover kits that come with helper springs are in the upper range of each respective company's product line (way out of OP's budget). Until you get to the track coilover with camber plates, you'll mostly see the conical spring that utilizes the OEM tophat. For kits like the KW V3, this is it's biggest downfall IMO. Having a loose front spring always seemed ghetto to me; reminds me of back in my JDM days when we used to just cut springs in the backyard.

To me personally, the compromise in suspension is mostly in my disappearing cash; all out or nothing.
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      09-15-2015, 01:32 PM   #26
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(you have forgive me I deal with and we make products for just about every type of car on the road...keeping up with all of the companies and recalling off hand how all of our competitors build their setups compared to ours for hundreds of applications proves to be difficult to keep up with. You are right and most of the ones for this application are in the higher price tiers with the exception of ours in a custom setup)

Quote:
Very good conversation here. I'm glad you joined and have been contributing very good information to the forum. It's refreshing.
Like I said before a bunch of fluff doesn't really help anyone. More informed customers are more likely to get a setup they like rather than falling victim to getting a setup simply because of great marketing or because it's what everyone else is doing....only to have it offer qualities that are far from what they are looking for.
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      09-15-2015, 01:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex o View Post
Very good conversation here. I'm glad you joined and have been contributing very good information to the forum. It's refreshing.

One small note to point out about helper springs and coilover kits. All the coilover kits that come with helper springs are in the upper range of each respective company's product line (way out of OP's budget). Until you get to the track coilover with camber plates, you'll mostly see the conical spring that utilizes the OEM tophat. For kits like the KW V3, this is it's biggest downfall IMO. Having a loose front spring always seemed ghetto to me; reminds me of back in my JDM days when we used to just cut springs in the backyard.

To me personally, the compromise in suspension is mostly in my disappearing cash; all out or nothing.
I thought about the "all-out" figure too, but when you go all out, you still have to determine your priorities - aesthetics / track / street / comfort, they all are functions in one way or another of each other, and usually not directly proportional... I myself am too lazy to adjust rebound / compression all the time, and my M4 will strictly be daily driver with possibly a handful of trackdays across 5 years the more expensive setups just end up having more capabilities, and better at doing them. JRZ seems to do the best all around job right now.. if money is no issue I'd go

Ohlins / JRZ
Bilstein PSS10 / Clubsports
and Budget setup is Swift + aftermarket shocks

I've always ran my secondary option (blisteins) but lately I've been feeling little lazy (older?) and don't want to deal with rubbing fenders, scraping front lip, and want to just run a sub 500 dollar swift setup on my new f82 shocks until they seem blown, then probably set it up to PSS10 / JRZ in 2-3 years; also leaves some funds for exhaust to get rid of the lawnmower sound - but I digress.

Great thread.. much better than some hella slammed bagged flush yo thread

I ran eibach sportlines in the "jdm" days - I learned 12 years ago the hard way......
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      09-15-2015, 01:45 PM   #28
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Great thread.. much better than some hella slammed bagged flush yo thread
Haha, I'm sure I could offer some advice to those guys also.
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      09-15-2015, 01:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JamesGames View Post
I ran eibach sportlines in the "jdm" days - I learned 12 years ago the hard way......
You were royalty compared to me. I cut 4 coils off my Integra OEM springs. Slammed at 2 miles an hour so everyone can see you. Illest before illest existed!

So funny because Eibach did an advertisement photoshoot with my car to promote their coilovers for the Integra; I didn't have Eibachs.
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      09-15-2015, 01:48 PM   #30
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So funny because Eibach did an advertisement photoshoot with my car to promote their coilovers for the Integra; I didn't have Eibachs.
Having spent years in freelance automotive marketing before you wouldn't believe how often some companies do that...or show "results" of their product only to sell their customers something different. I have more stories on that than should exist and could toss way too many companies under the bus
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      09-15-2015, 02:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC_Garrett View Post
I agree rebound/droop is very important, but having a TON isn't always necessary and can sometimes have a negative impact overall.
Been lurking in this thread reading up on the great info. I had Mopar Stage 3R (made by KW, IIRC) coilovers on my SRT-4 with helper springs. It handled extremely well and had great street manners. So I'm leaning toward the KW V3's for my M3 when the time comes.

Anyway, I was thinking about what was being said about droop/sag. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a car with more droop require stronger swaybars to counteract the body roll? For instance my Jeep has 14" (travel) coilovers on the front and 12" coilovers on the rear. The majority of the travel on both the front and the rear is on the rebound side rather than the compression side. The Jeep has no swaybars at all and on the street going around corners, the body roll is extremely pronounced.

Lastly I have a quick question, I've been looking for the answer in the suspension and tires/wheels threads but haven't found it yet: Are coilovers required to fit the wider tires (e.g. 265 front / 305 rear)?
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      09-15-2015, 02:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChat View Post
Been lurking in this thread reading up on the great info. I had Mopar Stage 3R (made by KW, IIRC) coilovers on my SRT-4 with helper springs. It handled extremely well and had great street manners. So I'm leaning toward the KW V3's for my M3 when the time comes.

Anyway, I was thinking about what was being said about droop/sag. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a car with more droop require stronger swaybars to counteract the body roll? For instance my Jeep has 14" (travel) coilovers on the front and 12" coilovers on the rear. The majority of the travel on both the front and the rear is on the rebound side rather than the compression side. The Jeep has no swaybars at all and on the street going around corners, the body roll is extremely pronounced.

Lastly I have a quick question, I've been looking for the answer in the suspension and tires/wheels threads but haven't found it yet: Are coilovers required to fit the wider tires (e.g. 265 front / 305 rear)?
I'll let someone else handle the question about the sway bars. My inclination is that the M3/M4 sway bars are well suited for the job.

As far as needing coilovers to fit wider tires... who told you that malarkey? If anything some coilover kits will actually rub the tire if you go with a wider wheel/tire. The best way to fit a wider tire is to get a more aggressive offset on the wheels. And there are plenty of threads that go over that topic.
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      09-15-2015, 02:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ex o View Post
As far as needing coilovers to fit wider tires... who told you that malarkey?
Nobody. It was true for my old car, I just couldn't find anything about it for the M3/M4 -- probably because, like you indicated, it isn't an issue. However, absence of information is not the same thing as validation so I asked to be sure. Thanks!
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      09-15-2015, 02:57 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex o View Post
I'll let someone else handle the question about the sway bars. My inclination is that the M3/M4 sway bars are well suited for the job.

As far as needing coilovers to fit wider tires... who told you that malarkey? If anything some coilover kits will actually rub the tire if you go with a wider wheel/tire. The best way to fit a wider tire is to get a more aggressive offset on the wheels. And there are plenty of threads that go over that topic.
I'll post this in here since it's easier to post a link that someone else as spent the time to explain how something works sometimes rather than type it all out myself: http://speed.academy/how-swaybars-work/

Very good information in that article.

As far as coilovers vs wheel/tire size. You are SORTA correct, how correct you are depends on the car we are talking about and options it came with. For these cars it is possible to gain a little bit of space (but not a ton) other Strut based cars can gain a ton of space.

As a rule most factory strut based cars come with a spring perch that starts ABOVE the tire, this means that the spring does not have any impact on your backspacing. Switching to coilovers can many time bring the spring down to the same height and so you'd then lose backspacing. Sometimes if your spring doesn't come into play messing with things MORE space can be gained as some aftermarket dampers are smaller in physical diameter than OEM so you gain just a tad more backspacing as a result of changing the dampers.

In a case that doesn't apply here but does on many other strut based cars...when you have camber adjustments at both the top of the strut (camber plate) and at the bottom usually via a slotted top bolt (eccentric bolt) you can add as much camber as possible via the top of the strut then pull it back out at the bottom resulting is a similar alignment but with a ton of added backspacing (you basically be putting the suspension at a greater angle).

Offset is the location of the mounting surface of the wheel. If your goal is nothing other than to get a bigger tire without permanently modifying the car then the options like I mentioned which all have to do with aftermarket suspension could allow for sometimes as much 1 inch larger wheel. Weather or not you should do this or it's the best option for you is a whole other discussion.
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      09-15-2015, 03:00 PM   #35
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Top 3 solutions for daily usage are:

JRZ Touring
Bilstein PSS10 B16
KW V3

In that order respectively. We have the Clubsport 2 Way Adjustable on our shop car now and that is definitely way too much for the street. We've installed all of the products listed in our facility and experienced the ride and performance each brand offers. Feel free to PM us for more information on each set up
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      09-15-2015, 03:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChat View Post
Nobody. It was true for my old car, I just couldn't find anything about it for the M3/M4 -- probably because, like you indicated, it isn't an issue. However, absence of information is not the same thing as validation so I asked to be sure. Thanks!
Short answer is basically No...Its possible to gain just a tad on these cars but not much and more often than not a lot of the aftermarket suspension companies offer give you LESS room.

If you plan to order suspension in the future you should ensure the wheels specs you want to order will work with change in clearance the new suspension will provide to avoid a possible headache in the future. If you don't plan to change it out then order whatever you want.
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      09-15-2015, 03:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC_Garrett View Post
Short answer is basically No...Its possible to gain just a tad on these cars but not much and more often than not a lot of the aftermarket suspension companies offer give you LESS room.

If you plan to order suspension in the future you should ensure the wheels specs you want to order will work with change in clearance the new suspension will provide to avoid a possible headache in the future. If you don't plan to change it out then order whatever you want.
I'm not positive about this, but it looks like the BC kit with the Swift springs should provide you with more inside clearance? I do know that the JRZ Touring will give you less clearance if you lower the perch to the wheel/tire level (as it's been confirmed by kitw). I'm not 100% sure about the other kits.
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      09-15-2015, 04:17 PM   #38
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I'll confirm and post the exact amount of change if people are interested. I don't recall how much or see it in my notes from the original development of this kit so i'll have to go measure it...but I do recall there being a tiny bit more room on this application. (I don't want to post a guess or incorrect information)

You should also keep in mind there is a number of other variables that can come into play. Ride height and diameter wheel also play a factor on this. Also currently swift does not make a spring in the default length of our M4 kit. All orders that are upgraded to swift springs need to either utilize a slightly shorter or slightly longer spring. I could make suggestions as to which I would do but if you wanted a custom kit like many of our customers do, it would be better to speak to PSI as they have messed with this or contact me directly with any questions about your car and the spring rates you'd like to use. (I wouldn't for example go shorter spring if you are going with a spring rate closer to OEM).

If you wanted a more definitive blanket answer, as long as your are not super slammed our default BR kit should offer a tiny bit more clearance at the shock body (backspacing, but don't expect this to be a ton of extra space ) and since the kit is offered with camber plates (currently only for 3bolt cars but 5bolt would be available soon) more front spacing can be gained by the addition of a little bit of camber.

Last edited by BC_Garrett; 09-15-2015 at 04:23 PM..
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      11-24-2015, 10:55 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremepower View Post
Top 3 solutions for daily usage are:

JRZ Touring
Bilstein PSS10 B16
KW V3

In that order respectively. We have the Clubsport 2 Way Adjustable on our shop car now and that is definitely way too much for the street. We've installed all of the products listed in our facility and experienced the ride and performance each brand offers. Feel free to PM us for more information on each set up
Where would you say the new Bilstein Damptronics and Ohlin R&T Fall into that list?
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      11-24-2015, 10:58 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanto
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremepower View Post
Top 3 solutions for daily usage are:

JRZ Touring
Bilstein PSS10 B16
KW V3

In that order respectively. We have the Clubsport 2 Way Adjustable on our shop car now and that is definitely way too much for the street. We've installed all of the products listed in our facility and experienced the ride and performance each brand offers. Feel free to PM us for more information on each set up
Where would you say the new Bilstein Damptronics and Ohlin R&T Fall into that list?
We can't voice much opinion on either of those products because they are not available yet.

Based on previous experience, I can definitely see Ohlins R/T taking over as the best coilovers for street use.
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      11-24-2015, 11:12 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremepower View Post
We can't voice much opinion on either of those products because they are not available yet.

Based on previous experience, I can definitely see Ohlins R/T taking over as the best coilovers for street use.
Thanks for the reply!
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      11-24-2015, 11:37 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanto
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremepower View Post
We can't voice much opinion on either of those products because they are not available yet.

Based on previous experience, I can definitely see Ohlins R/T taking over as the best coilovers for street use.
Thanks for the reply!
No problem
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      11-24-2015, 02:12 PM   #43
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TC Kline DA are fantastic for street and track use.

As compliant (if not more) than adaptive on the street and great on the track.
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      06-07-2017, 02:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Running KW Clubsports at the moment:





Full writeup of the ECGP can be see in last month's European Car.

Moving up to the JRZs next. Way overkill for the street, most times the JRZ Touring or KW V3s will be perfectly fine if seeing street/mild track use.
which one would you recommend for street use after you guys tried different setups? Thanks
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