First Comparison Look at BMW M4 versus Lexus RC F

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Reapur

All you people saying "wow 5.0L v8 480 HP @7300 rpm...". Wake up.

The Lexus redlines at 7300, 480 HP for a split second before you shift gears. Wow really useful. The m3/4 has all that power where it Actually matters. Right in the middle and carries it along the rev range. So not only is the Lexus hideous, the power numbers are made to try to 1 up BMW by showing a bigger number must be better right? Its not how much power you make. Its where you make it and how you use it. Boost is the way to go, it not only delivers a much better power band, it also has boat loads more potential to make big power in the aftermarket.

Not so quick. What really matters is the average power used over the rpm range used when under a WOT maximum acceleration effort. Why peak power matters so much is because higher peak power is also going to provide a higher average power. The new M4 is probably going to be about 450 hp (underrated). If the RC F can keep the rpms high enough across multiple gears such that is bounces between 420-480 hp (super rough guess) then it's average power will be close to the M4s average power (which will be more of a constant, as opposed to ramping up and down). Unfortunately, if the RC Fs weight gets anywhere close to rumored values it is more going to be the weight (hence power to weight, of course) that will kill this car and make it substantially slower than the M4.

Also, the M4 is by all understanding going to be very hard to tune, heavily locked down, encrypted and tracked by BMW (for swift warranty denial).

[cazz]

Probably all been said:

Outside of the grill/front hood I like the exterior. The rear wheel arches and front brake vents looks nice. I'd have to see it in person to decide on the exhaust. Even the grill might look better in person since all the photos are low angle shots. From a standing position it might look bearable (but I'm not that hopeful).

The deal killer for me is the weight.

I give Lexus some credit for not trying to play it too safe. IMO, BMW has made some of its M cars look too much like the base models.

[roadmax]

Let's see who will win at the end: BMW with increasing the size of the front grille in horizontal direction vs. Audi & Lexus increasing the front grille size in vertical direction.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Not so quick. What really matters is the average power used over the rpm range used when under a WOT maximum acceleration effort. Why peak power matters so much is because higher peak power is also going to provide a higher average power. The new M4 is probably going to be about 450 hp (underrated). If the RC F can keep the rpms high enough across multiple gears such that is bounces between 420-480 hp (super rough guess) then it's average power will be close to the M4s average power (which will be more of a constant, as opposed to ramping up and down). Unfortunately, if the RC Fs weight gets anywhere close to rumored values it is more going to be the weight (hence power to weight, of course) that will kill this car and make it substantially slower than the M4.

Also, the M4 is by all understanding going to be very hard to tune, heavily locked down, encrypted and tracked by BMW (for swift warranty denial).

Agree - but a couple of minor points:

First, if you have knowledge that the new M is going to be underrated at 425-430 HP, so be it, but if not, these two cars are likely to be closer together than half past six, power-to-weight wise. My reasoning is that there is no weigh () the new car will come in at around 3300 pounds, as per marketing hype, although I'd love to be wrong. More like 3400 and some change, at a guess, which is still a victory of course.

Second, this'll be the second consecutive time BMW has blown me away, engine-wise. The last car with its astounding torque curve, losing only around 11% off peak over a 4400 rpm span - and this car with that power curve so flat that from 3rd gear on, you're at peak power for the duration.

That particular item means that the Lexus will likely lose a drag race, since its average power to weight over a run will be down compared to the bimmer's.

(As an aside, I'm very interested in seeing how that new Lexus does on a road course, since with a couple of minor factory tweaks the IS-F managed to run with the last M3, according to Car & Driver.)

Lastly, it'll be very interesting to see how the aftermarket does with the new engine control coding. My understanding is that the new engine is allowed up to 18 psi or so above ambient, presumably at altitude, with less available at sea level. Seems to me if you piggybacked just the ambient pressure, manifold pressure and G sensors, you could deliver that psi at sea level, making for a nice power gain with a fairly simple mod.

Bruce

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Agree - but a couple of minor points:

First, if you have knowledge that the new M is going to be underrated at 425-430 HP, so be it, but if not, these two cars are likely to be closer together than half past six, power-to-weight wise. My reasoning is that there is no weigh () the new car will come in at around 3300 pounds, as per marketing hype, although I'd love to be wrong. More like 3400 and some change, at a guess, which is still a victory of course.

Howdy!

Do you really think there is any chance the car will not be under-rated?

The best stat we have is that the new car will in an apples to apples fashion be 80 kg lighter than the existing car, in other words E92 M3 ~3700 even, F82 M4 ~3530 lb (with driver, fluids, etc.)

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

That particular item means that the Lexus will likely lose a drag race, since its average power to weight over a run will be down compared to the bimmer's.

Yes, very likely given best estimates of the M4 power and IS-F weight.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The best stat we have is that the new car will in an apples to apples fashion be 80 kg lighter than the existing car

DCT equipped cars will not see as much weight reduction:

85kg/83kg lighter for a 6MT M3/M4
65kg/63kg lighter for a DCT M3/M4

See M3 here and M4 here

[swamp2]

^ I was just using the direct quote from the BMW official who stated 80 kg. Plenty close enough for comparing an E92 M3 to F82 M4.

[LDSM]

If the rumors of pricing are true, Base starting at around 70-75k, then I won't be cross shopping this with the m4.

Its strange that lexus would bring this car to the race but shoot themselves in the foot with the pricing. Especially if the m3/m4 outperform it.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Were did the rumors about the RC-F weight come from?

U mean to have heard, that this car get some carbon treatment (Hood/roof/trunk) !?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Do you really think there is any chance the car will not be under-rated?

I have no idea. I merely assume accuracy here in the absence of other information. If you've got knowledge to the contrary (i.e. - some engineering types going wink wink, nudge nudge when quoting power), that's fine with me.

In any event, simulating a quarter mile with 430 HP and a stick (using Quarter, Jr.), I come up with a run of 11.80@118 MPH, assuming powershifting, and an all-up weight of 3600 pounds. The 60 foot time was a 1.82, which is mildly aggressive but doable, I think. As an observation, I saw a 1.61 time in one of your CarTest outputs, which seems very aggressive indeed. As a semi-informed guess, I'd figure .75 to .80 Gs in first gear, traction limited, which won't get that 1.61 time.

Bottom line, though: The new one will be freakin' fast.

Originally Posted by swamp2

The best stat we have is that the new car will in an apples to apples fashion be 80 kg lighter than the existing car, in other words E92 M3 ~3700 even, F82 M4 ~3530 lb (with driver, fluids, etc.)

U.S spec for an E92 was 3704 pounds, which is presumably with every possible option including sunroof and DCT. Car & Driver's last test of a six-speed E92 stripper (except for the Competition Package) came in at a curb weight of 3552 pounds. I'm figuring curb weight at low to mid 3400s for a lightly optioned new one with stick - meaning E46 weights.

I would love to be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for some of those 3300-pound estimates to be accurate.

Bruce

[Stev3]

Lexus looks nice...but how does it sound? That is the question

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I have no idea. I merely assume accuracy here in the absence of other information. If you've got knowledge to the contrary (i.e. - some engineering types going wink wink, nudge nudge when quoting power), that's fine with me.

335i, F10 M5 and other turbo BMWs have been pretty clearly and substantially underrated. The new M3/4 will follow and all of the BMW fanboys can claim that BMW has some UFO chassis magic that got the car so fast with such "little" power....

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

In any event, simulating a quarter mile with 430 HP and a stick (using Quarter, Jr.), I come up with a run of 11.80@118 MPH, assuming powershifting, and an all-up weight of 3600 pounds. The 60 foot time was a 1.82, which is mildly aggressive but doable, I think. As an observation, I saw a 1.61 time in one of your CarTest outputs, which seems very aggressive indeed. As a semi-informed guess, I'd figure .75 to .80 Gs in first gear, traction limited, which won't get that 1.61 time.

Bottom line, though: The new one will be freakin' fast.

I am predicting 11.7@118 with 455 hp, 3550 lb with driver, M-DCT. As typical my 60' times and traps are probably both a bit low. Either way, fast, fast, fast. 991S fast basically.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I would love to be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for some of those 3300-pound estimates to be accurate.

That has already been debunked pretty thoroughly. It might be a complete stripper, CSiC brakes, no fluids, no driver or some combination thereof...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That has already been debunked pretty thoroughly. It might be a complete stripper, CSiC brakes, no fluids, no driver or some combination thereof...

The stated DIN weight for the MT6 version is 3300lbs (1498kg). That is without driver, but with all fluids and 90% fuel and the std steel brakes.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=934947

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The stated DIN weight for the MT6 version is 3300lbs (1498kg). That is without driver, but with all fluids and 90% fuel and the std steel brakes.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=934947

I have no evidence to the contrary, except for BMW marketing's persistent historical penchant for understating M3 weights before the cars actually are available.

I remain convinced that the cars will be heavier than "advertised" when real vehicles are available to be weighed by interested third parties.

Would love to be wrong.

Bruce

[Kadema]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I have no evidence to the contrary, except for BMW marketing's persistent historical penchant for understating M3 weights before the cars actually are available.

I remain convinced that the cars will be heavier than "advertised" when real vehicles are available to be weighed by interested third parties.

Would love to be wrong.

Bruce

Official weight is known already. "Leergewicht EU" is with all fluids (90% fuel that is), 75kg (165lbs) driver and cargo. 1572kg is 3466lbs, that's 3301lbs with all fluids, no driver, steel brakes. That's not marketing or rumour, but official (legal) numbers. US official numbers might be slightly higher due to 100% fuel and better standard equipment.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I have no evidence to the contrary, except for BMW marketing's persistent historical penchant for understating M3 weights before the cars actually are available.

I remain convinced that the cars will be heavier than "advertised" when real vehicles are available to be weighed by interested third parties.

Would love to be wrong.

Bruce

Originally Posted by Kadema

Official weight is known already. "Leergewicht EU" is with all fluids (90% fuel that is), 75kg (165lbs) driver and cargo. 1572kg is 3466lbs, that's 3301lbs with all fluids, no driver, steel brakes. That's not marketing or rumour, but official (legal) numbers. US official numbers might be slightly higher due to 100% fuel and better standard equipment.

There is a sticky on curb weights that details the differences between DIN, EU and US weights.

Remember that EU and DIN weights are without any optional equipment (so if electric windows, AC, sunroof, stereo etc are optional, then those are not included in EU or DIN weights).

So if Your car is heavier than the official figures, that isn't because BMW has provided wrong numbers, but because you have added equipment not included in the official spec.

In EU the curb weights are also established during type approval by a independent organisation (usually TÜV) by actually weighing the car (and subtracting weight of any optional equipment that may have been added on the test vehicle). So the curb weight number has been achieved on a real car

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Boss330

There is a sticky on curb weights that details the differences between DIN, EU and US weights.

Remember that EU and DIN weights are without any optional equipment (so if electric windows, AC, sunroof, stereo etc are optional, then those are not included in EU or DIN weights).

So if Your car is heavier than the official figures, that isn't because BMW has provided wrong numbers, but because you have added equipment not included in the official spec.

In EU the curb weights are also established during type approval by a independent organisation (usually TÜV) by actually weighing the car (and subtracting weight of any optional equipment that may have been added on the test vehicle). So the curb weight number has been achieved on a real car

We'll see how this comes out. My bet is that a stripper U.S. M4 stick comes in at an E46-like 3400 plus pounds. Say, 3420 or a little less.

Looking forward to this new M, regardless of weight.

Bruce

[s4play]

Excuse me for not reading all 15 pages thus far but I will say this from actual experience with ownership of both the e90 m3 and ISF:

If the RC-F sounds anything like the old IS-F, it will be a winner in my book! I can only hope the new M3 will sound as good.

My IS-F with a JoeZ exhaust was pure harmony in sound. I tried to replicate that sound in the M3 and failed, finally gave up.

So Lexus let's see what you got this time around ~ it's too bad I dislike the new styling and need a 4-door sedan or I would consider this new car.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

We'll see how this comes out. My bet is that a stripper U.S. M4 stick comes in at an E46-like 3400 plus pounds. Say, 3420 or a little less.

Looking forward to this new M, regardless of weight.

Bruce

US curb weight will with allmost 100% certainty not be similar to the DIN/EU weights. That is because US curb weight has to include optional equipment believed to be in more than 33% of sold cars. That's why the US E9x curb weight is with DCT and not the MT6.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=919364

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Boss330

US curb weight will with allmost 100% certainty not be similar to the DIN/EU weights. That is because US curb weight has to include optional equipment believed to be in more than 33% of sold cars. That's why the US E9x curb weight is with DCT and not the MT6.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=919364

Not talking about SAE/EU/DIN weights. I'm saying that a stripper M4 will weigh over 3400 pounds here in the U.S., and a bit less (but not a lot less) delivered in Europe. This is full of fuel at the curb, no passengers or cargo.

What I'm really saying is that I'm quite sure 3300 pounds is a BMW marketing pipe dream.

Hey, if it actually comes in a 3300 pounds, I'll be quite thrilled.

Bruce

[Kadema]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Not talking about SAE/EU/DIN weights. I'm saying that a stripper M4 will weigh over 3400 pounds here in the U.S., and a bit less (but not a lot less) delivered in Europe. This is full of fuel at the curb, no passengers or cargo.

What I'm really saying is that I'm quite sure 3300 pounds is a BMW marketing pipe dream.

Hey, if it actually comes in a 3300 pounds, I'll be quite thrilled.

Bruce

Yes, but BMW talk about DIN/EU weight and not a "stripper US M4" whatever that exactly means. And it's not fair you make it seem like they did. And DIN weight means it is already confirmed by a third party - german legal authorities as BOSS explained above.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Not talking about SAE/EU/DIN weights. I'm saying that a stripper M4 will weigh over 3400 pounds here in the U.S., and a bit less (but not a lot less) delivered in Europe. This is full of fuel at the curb, no passengers or cargo.

What I'm really saying is that I'm quite sure 3300 pounds is a BMW marketing pipe dream.

Hey, if it actually comes in a 3300 pounds, I'll be quite thrilled.

Bruce

Please substantiate that claim. Are you saying that BMW and TÛV are deceiving the legal authorities in Europe? Some countries also base their registration tax on the EU type approval curb weight and EU require that member states do random verification checks that vehicles are in compliance with EU type approval specifications.