M4 vs 718 Cayman S

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by csbear

It's all good.... This is the "VS." forum, so fanbois of other brands are going to show up.

My personal favorite brands (even though I am open to a lot car brands) are BMW and Porsche.

But that's actually pretty common anyway. A lot of BMW fans appreciate the Porsche marque and vice versa. I am sure for a lot of people here an ideal garage would consist of a GT3/GT4 and an M3.... plus whatever POS SUV on the side for hauling stuff or kids.

There is most certainly a trend with BMW drivers, we all want Porsches lol, enthusiast and regular BMW drivers alike seem to look at P cars like the next step.

An example: I picked up my m4 with a group of 22 people 2 years ago and about a quarter of the group has already sold their F8x for a P car, GT4 or GT3

[attila]

I had the chance to drive the new 718S PDK this weekend. My wife drove it as well back to back to an older 2014 Boxster S. She clearly disliked the new car. According her it drove like a Volvo. No excitement, soft, bad sound, clearly not a drivers car. She, liked the old 6cyl manual car way more. We argued a little bit, because I did not think the 718 was that bad and asked her to drive the 650s. (first time she drove the McLaren) She said the 650s is too easy, and way too fast but at least not boring like the 718??!!
I did not drive the 2014 Boxster S so I should not comment on that, but I think her main issue was the PDK. The sound was close second as a problem. overall I think the 718 is somewhat sedated, but still an OK car to commute. Not an exciting car any more. For that look into the new Mazda MX5 (we drove that too this weekend)

[W///]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

the Jeep Trackhawk is coming out...



that would be a sick garage.

GT4, M3, Trackhawk

That would be an epic garage right there

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by Powaup

There is most certainly a trend with BMW drivers, we all want Porsches lol, enthusiast and regular BMW drivers alike seem to look at P cars like the next step.

An example: I picked up my m4 with a group of 22 people 2 years ago and about a quarter of the group has already sold their F8x for a P car, GT4 or GT3

BMWs move away from hydraulic steering and thus so far its inability to perfect artificial drive by wire might have contributed to this migration. Add in the handling characteristics of P-cars and it gets way to easy to stray. I know BMW has made progress and it's getting better but nowhere near the old feed back it use to give. Ergo Porsche gets the nod, unfortunately we end up paying up $ for it, BMW's indiscretions. Hope they solve it soon before my 4 yr warranty is up. They say they did it for the M2, why not the F80?

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by attila

I had the chance to drive the new 718S PDK this weekend. My wife drove it as well back to back to an older 2014 Boxster S. She clearly disliked the new car. According her it drove like a Volvo. No excitement, soft, bad sound, clearly not a drivers car. She, liked the old 6cyl manual car way more. We argued a little bit, because I did not think the 718 was that bad and asked her to drive the 650s. (first time she drove the McLaren) She said the 650s is too easy, and way too fast but at least not boring like the 718??!!
I did not drive the 2014 Boxster S so I should not comment on that, but I think her main issue was the PDK. The sound was close second as a problem. overall I think the 718 is somewhat sedated, but still an OK car to commute. Not an exciting car any more. For that look into the new Mazda MX5 (we drove that too this weekend)

Very interesting, how would you compare the 718 to an M4?? I think the sound thing won't be an issue coming from a stock M4, which doesn't sound all that great to begin with

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by Powaup

Very interesting, how would you compare the 718 to an M4?? I think the sound thing won't be an issue coming from a stock M4, which doesn't sound all that great to begin with

I'm going this weekend to look at a 2016 981 Cayman GTS. While I'm there, I'm going to see if they have any 718s (both S and non-S) to drive to compare the two.

I agree, coming from a stock F8x, I can't imagine the sound of the 718 being any worse lol

[RIP1981]

Hi all,

we own a Porsche Cayman S (987) since 2011, I drove several other Cayman and Boxsters in the meantime. Ranging from 987 FL S to 981 Non S and 981 S and 981 GTS, last one even on track in Las Vegas in direct comparison to 911 GT3 (991) and Lamborghini Huracan.
Two weeks ago I had a Boxster 718 S for a day and drove it about 200 km.

Since October 2015 we also own a BMW M3 F80 (MJ 2016). It has stock a better sound than those I testdrove before from 2015.

I drive all my cars a few laps a year on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. I have about 8 laps in the M3 now.

I am not a really fast driver as really fast drivers go for under 8 minutes BTG in a stock car during tourist traffic. (a friend of mine did drive about 7:50 BTG in a stock M3 and M4 the first time in these cars without knowing them)

I am more about 8:40 to 9 minutes. Still enough to overtake most people there and I rarely get overtaken as the fast ones have to go on the ring within less than a minute from my start

So I don't baby my cars I use them and experience the feel. I can attach some youtube videos of me crusing on the ring and drifting my M3 below

Soooo what I want to say is, that I experienced different Caymans for a lot of miles, I experienced the M3, which is about the same as the M4 (I also drove some before deciding to go for the M3) and I drove the 718 not a long time ago.

And to be honest: the M3 is no sportscar, never was one. Same goes for every generation of the M3. They always were fast saloons or big coupés with 4/5 seats.

If you ever drive a sportscar, you immediately feel the difference.

Our M3 is worlds faster than our old 2006 Cayman S. It has better tyres, much newer suspension ... it is a 2015 car.

But being a sportscar is not about speed and laptimes alone. It is about balancing, feeling, traction, durability, optics, seat position ... it is about the sensation.

The M3 is boring in comparison to the Cayman. It is a big compromise. It has to be a family car with space for 4 people, a big boot. It was never constructed to be fun from the beginning.
It is nearly the best you can get out of this practical base, speedwise.

It accelerates as hell. I guess our M3 has also 450+ hp, as it gone from 100 to 200 kph in 9 seconds stock. The tyres grip and grip and you can go really fast through corners. Quicker than in our Cayman.

But you still feel like a saloon driver. You feel a heavy car around you. You sit very high, the roof is even for me far away (I am 6 ft 6 in) with a big windshield in front.
It feels spacy. You don't feel planted. It feels comfortable. You feel like protected and put into wadding. The stock brakes fall apart after about 2 laps. The tyres heat up massively. The Cayman S is much tougher with stock stuff. You would have to update the M3 to use it really as a track car. At least the breaking pads for sure! I drove the Cayman in comparison for several laps without any issues.

It is ridiculous fast though as I said. You easily get most of the cars on the ring, just fly past and you can even take corners faster than old sportscars, even Porsche.
But you feel disconnected from driving in comparison. In the F80 it seems to be more the computer driving even in european MDM mode.
In ESP off it still feels heavy and sluggish but slow enough to easily catch oversteer most of the times.

Without updating components you are only quick for the first ring lap. The second ring lap you fight with overheating tyres and starting from the third lap the breaking pads give up on those massive weight and those top speeds before breaking.
In the 4th lap even a 160 hp elise would be quicker than you if you didn't update your M3 for track use with those squeeky brake pads which are annoying in everyday use.

___

If you take your seat in a Porsche Cayman you immediately feel integrated. Connected. The engine is right behind you. No backseats to be practical. No compromise from the beginning. A fun car. You sit way lower. You can look up to most drivers in other cars. You feel much closer to the street and you also can feel the street much better.
That does not mean that it is more uncomfortable at all. The Caymans with PASM and especially the 718 were about as comfortable as the F80.
But you still notice a lot more what is going on. The front tyres ... you feel every bit of grip on them and when they lose grip.
The car feels light and nimble and rotates easily much quicker than the sluggish F80. If you drive fast and change directions quickly you can feel the mid engine from the beginning. The mass concentrated in the middle. No mass on the ends. It just rotates and rotates and feels very light.

If you drive a corner quickly it starts to dance around the middle. It just rotates a bit but doesn't feel out of control. Just slightly dancing ... but you always feel there is huge grip and it feels safe. The M3 feels like on rails in comparison. No limit as noticable as in the cayman. Either it grips or it goes. No dancing around as much without provoking it massively with throttle on/off. Especially no light dancing ... more like a whoops, now it drifts ...

And the sound of the engine is worlds apart from the F80 with the exception of the 718. Coming to that later. The B6 right behind you with no turbos at all. It changes the sound character all the time going through the revs. It cries for more. Push me, Hit me ... give me more than 7000 rpm!

The traction ... it always handles fine and gets the power on the street. It still isn't THAT much slower on the straight, especially the 981 GTS and the 718 S. You will need a LOT of way to get them in a M3 or M4 accelerationwise. From standstill no chance. The M3 just produces smoke while the Porsche jumps away and your stomach is shot to your back. It feels so much harder in the Porsche than those 4 seconds in the M3, as they grip immediately, while the tyres of the M3 just cry for help.

So there is no comparison in driving joy for me between those two. And there is no question that no saloon or big coupe in the world is a real sportscar. They feel to much different. The only ones feeling similar to the Cayman for me are cars like a Lotus Elise, the Toyota GT86 or the Mazda MX5 ... a 911 is apart from the GT3 somewhere in the middle between Cayman and M3. Probably more leaned towards Cayman than M3.

Going from the cayman to the m3 is like going from a kart to a Mercedes. The Mercedes may be quicker on any straight but it feels so much more sluggish.

That concludes the question sportscar or not for me.

Coming to the topic of the thread regarding 718.

I tested it driving slowly and quickly but no Nordschleife sadly. Every single aspect is better than in the Boxster/Caymans before apart from the engine. And this is soooo sad.

It accelerates like hell (I just drove the S model). The acceleration with Launch Control from start is nearly as spectacular as in an 991 4S. Quite close. It has so much power that even the modern mid engine layout has to work for traction sometimes.

The suspension is fantastic. It is even a bit more comfortable than before in the 981 with PASM. I would even say it is more comfortable than my F80 with adaptive suspension in comfort.
And still it corners like crazy. I never drove a car that feels that crazy fast in corners on street tyres. And they are not even UHP tyres as far as I know. Just regular sport tyres from Pirelli.

The grip is immense. It feels like it could handle more like 500 hp than 350 hp
It still feels balanced to perfection and light despite about 1400 kg with driver and fuel.

The pdk is even better than before. It changes gears so quick the revmeter beams between positions. It looks ridiculous. More like digital than analoge.
You really notice nearly no bang going full throttle. It just shifts smooth in the next gear. Not that hard knocking everytime like in the DKG.
It never felt strange or jumpy at no rev.
Now the manual mode is a real manual mode with no upshifts or downshifts when you don't want them or get to low in the revs.

The interior is a bit different but overall similar to before. The steering wheel feels a bit smaller but nice. The infotainment is a lot better.

Infotainment, Sound system ... toys. Things you will look for in an M3. But for me personally the car is so much more exciting to drive I wouldn't care if they are missing completely. I don't need a navigation system as I would love to get lost in this car

Also enough space for a big person like me (as I said 6 feet, 6 inch). The 981 also has enough space. The 987 is a bit small but still is ok for me. The 986 would be too small (Boxster only anyway)

BUT !!!

Now comes the very very big BUT. The engine. Damn it sounds silly. You fire the engine up. Usually and especially in an open cabriolet, you get goosebumps from the sound behind your back. It is so much more emotional than those slightly artificial M3 engine sound e.g.

In the 718 it starts loud but somehow stange. Then it is ok in idle IF it is warm. If the engine is really cold it just sounds like a VW Beatle from the 60s.
Gets better when it gets warm.

Reving the engine however is horrific It sounds just like another artifical pumped up 4 cylinder. No difference for me to the whole Seats, VW Golfs and other cheap hot hatches. Just another sound scheme. Like the modern diesel engines which also produce some pleasant artificial sound. Nothing special. Nothing emotional.

You can determine the volume by switching from normal to sport. It immediately gets louder like you were turning up a radio. The sports exhaust didn't make much of a difference at all.

If you get through the revs the sound doesn't change at all. It always is this dark super artifical V8 immitation somehow.

They really ripped the soul out of this car. It is fast as hell, comfortable, looks good, drives very nice ... but where is the engine? The sound?

I would still prefer a 981 GTS or S. It is about 10% worse in suspension, pdk and stuff. But 400% as good in sound and emotion because of this.
The sound makes up so much of the emotion.

So I can understand the wife of atilla. But it solely is because of the sound and that boring consistent turbo acceleration.

The old engine changes the sound all the time and all of the sounds are great. The acceleration increases through the revs, it cries for more. It is so much more exciting.

Still, even the 718 feels much more joyful to drive than the M3 or M4. But the M3/M4 sound really better than the 718. Much better ... and this is really amazing and sad.

My 5 cents. Thanks for reading. Got long again :-D

I will switch to a second Cayman I guess. The M3 is really a nice car for what it is. Like the M4 it is a compromise. Practicability and still a bit of joy.

The M3/M4 and M2 are the last real BMWs. What BMW stands for in my taste. The are good allrounders with fun. Most BMWs are really boring and heavy/sluggish nowadays.

But no comparison to a real sportscar. Just is not possible in my view

Ah and my two videos:

cosy, safe lap Nordschleife

And me drifting a bit:

Cya
RIP

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by RIP1981

Hi all,

we own a Porsche Cayman S (987) since 2011, I drove several other Cayman and Boxsters in the meantime. Ranging from 987 FL S to 981 Non S and 981 S and 981 GTS, last one even on track in Las Vegas in direct comparison to 911 GT3 (991) and Lamborghini Huracan.
Two weeks ago I had a Boxster 718 S for a day and drove it about 200 km.

Very interesting review, thank you for sharing. The noise seems like your biggest concern, do you think it will be as much of a problem in the closed top Cayman? and do you think an aftermarket exhaust could improve the sound of the car?

For an 80k dollar car the 718s seems harder and harder to justify, so far it seems that PSE isn't even worth the money.

[RIP1981]

You're welcome.

It is not a problem with the noise being annoying or to loud. In fact it can be very quiet and unobtrusive in normal mode! The problem is, it is boring and doesn't sound really good.

So it is a general problem being a sportscar/funcar. No matter if closed or not.

People in closed sportscars like the Cayman also would like to have an exciting emotional noise, don't they?


If it can be fixed with an after market exhaust ... hmm I guess it depends on taste.

For me not I guess. Exhausts can change the volume and pitch. They can make the sound more bassy and loud.

But IMHO they cannot give a sound the quality of a real nice big engine. The boxer 6 cylinder sounds really aggressive screaming, changing sounds right to the end.
A V8 sounds nice, hammering through the revs. A V10 has also character. But a 4 cylinder never sounds really nice. Most of the times it sounds stressed.

Additionally a turbo dampens the natural noise. The only 4 cylinders I heard that sounded somehow nice were the non turbo engines in the Lotus Elise. Not as good as 6+ cylinder engines, but ok.

But using 4 cylinders AND a turbo ... damn. For me that can't be fixed with another exhaust.

Quality Sound is generated with engine displacement and cylinders. If you are ok with simply bassy and loud sounds you can make every car right with an exhaust

[pikkagtr]

The problem with sounds is: it's all dependent on the personal preference
To me growing up with Imports and turbocharged cars, owned ⁴ different DSMs an STi 2 evos 9&10, and an integra type R, v8s back in the days of the 90s early 2000s just sounded like trucks
So when given the choice of an e92 M3 , with terrible low end tq I passed up on it and waited.
When BMW came out with the f80 it was tailored to me perfectly. Kind of the kid from the 90s dreaming for owning a monstrous supra , but with luxury and damn good looks. With a set of DPs , and open intake the s55 sounds like heaven spooling up
Everyone will decide for themselves, but maybe Porsche will gain more buyers from my generation and loses buyers from the flat 6 crowd
End of the day, the new car is faster and easier to drive and more fuel efficient and even priced lower than its convertible sibling
That's a win in my book

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

The problem with sounds is: it's all dependent on the personal preference
To me growing up with Imports and turbocharged cars, owned ⁴ different DSMs an STi 2 evos 9&10, and an integra type R, v8s back in the days of the 90s early 2000s just sounded like trucks
So when given the choice of an e92 M3 , with terrible low end tq I passed up on it and waited.
When BMW came out with the f80 it was tailored to me perfectly. Kind of the kid from the 90s dreaming for owning a monstrous supra , but with luxury and damn good looks. With a set of DPs , and open intake the s55 sounds like heaven spooling up
Everyone will decide for themselves, but maybe Porsche will gain more buyers from my generation and loses buyers from the flat 6 crowd
End of the day, the new car is faster and easier to drive and more fuel efficient and even priced lower than its convertible sibling
That's a win in my book

You and I have very similar taste and preferences. What really got me to become a car enthusiast was watching initial D, so Japanese cars from that era are some of my all time favorites. Like you said about the f80 being like a nicer supra, the opportunity of an m4 to me was just like getting into a more attainable GTR. I love turbo cars more than NA cars in general so I think the 718 will suit me well. Really wanted to get the new supra but it looks as if that won't be out until 2018.

Btw, getting DPs for the M in 2 weeks, can't wait.

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by RIP1981

You're welcome.

It is not a problem with the noise being annoying or to loud. In fact it can be very quiet and unobtrusive in normal mode! The problem is, it is boring and doesn't sound really good.

So it is a general problem being a sportscar/funcar. No matter if closed or not.

People in closed sportscars like the Cayman also would like to have an exciting emotional noise, don't they?


If it can be fixed with an after market exhaust ... hmm I guess it depends on taste.

For me not I guess. Exhausts can change the volume and pitch. They can make the sound more bassy and loud.

But IMHO they cannot give a sound the quality of a real nice big engine. The boxer 6 cylinder sounds really aggressive screaming, changing sounds right to the end.
A V8 sounds nice, hammering through the revs. A V10 has also character. But a 4 cylinder never sounds really nice. Most of the times it sounds stressed.

Additionally a turbo dampens the natural noise. The only 4 cylinders I heard that sounded somehow nice were the non turbo engines in the Lotus Elise. Not as good as 6+ cylinder engines, but ok.

But using 4 cylinders AND a turbo ... damn. For me that can't be fixed with another exhaust.

Quality Sound is generated with engine displacement and cylinders. If you are ok with simply bassy and loud sounds you can make every car right with an exhaust

What about the Alfa 4c? That a 4 cyl 1.75L turbo engine and people rave about the way it sounds

Either way, I get what you're saying, it comes down to personal taste

[RIP1981]

I just heard a Alfa 4c idleing Never WOT.

So I can't say anything about it. But as it is also a turbo charged 4 cylinder, I guess it wouldn't be my taste

Best sounds for me so far are some of the AMGs, the Corvette Z06, the Viper for the big engines ...
really hardcore cool the Carrera GT with its 10 cylinder. And I also really really like the 911 before Turbo and especially the GT3

[JTO24]

Well, this past Saturday I drove a 2016 981 Cayman GTS 6mt and I'm in love. The car was absolutely incredible and specced exactly as I'd spec mine if I built one. The dealer is offering me an incredible deal on their car so I'm highly tempted. I do need someone to take over my F80 lease, though, as trade-in is not very good at a non-BMW dealership lol

I also heard a 718 Boxster base 6mt start up and drive away (no PSE).. Didn't sound bad, tbh. Quieter than the 981 GTS for sure but at parking lot speeds it was much better, but quieter than a F8x w/ stock exhaust.

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by JTO24

Well, this past Saturday I drove a 2016 981 Cayman GTS 6mt and I'm in love. The car was absolutely incredible and specced exactly as I'd spec mine if I built one. The dealer is offering me an incredible deal on their car so I'm highly tempted. I do need someone to take over my F80 lease, though, as trade-in is not very good at a non-BMW dealership lol

I also heard a 718 Boxster base 6mt start up and drive away (no PSE).. Didn't sound bad, tbh. Quieter than the 981 GTS for sure but at parking lot speeds it was much better, but quieter than a F8x w/ stock exhaust.

Are you gonna try to test drive a 718 boxster S before jumping on the 981? that way you'll get a feel for what the 718 Cayman would be like. You should also look into selling your car instead of doing a lease takeover find someone willing to buy it above your current buy out value

[P1 PET]

STINGRAY for me if i had £64,870 around to spend on a car.

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by Powaup

There is most certainly a trend with BMW drivers, we all want Porsches lol, enthusiast and regular BMW drivers alike seem to look at P cars like the next step.

An example: I picked up my m4 with a group of 22 people 2 years ago and about a quarter of the group has already sold their F8x for a P car, GT4 or GT3

Yep. Seems to be a trend. My ownership of the M4 vert was short lived in favor of a P car.

[Powaup]

So I drove a regular cayman 718 non S and boy was that a dissapointment, the sound was just terrible for driving around the streets, no crescendo what so ever, the aural experience of climbing through the revs was completely unexistent.

On the other hand I got to drive a Boxster S around the track for a Porsche event and that was awesome there but because I was going fast all the time and not so much worried about how the car sounds.

718 is a no go for me, and I wouldn't get back into an M4 unless I hit the lotto and I am able to treat the M like a civic for DD duties