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      05-26-2015, 01:17 PM   #243
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Whttiger25 very nice analysis. I think the conclusion you have reached matches what most believe. If you plan to keep the car 3 years or less, then leasing is better. 4 years is a push and 5 means you should buy. As always, getting a new car every 3 years is more expensive than keeping cars for 5+ years (as a general rule).

Again this isn't a lease vs buy thread, just an informative look at how BMW leasing works and how to get the best lease deal possible.
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      05-26-2015, 01:20 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRib View Post
Whttiger25 very nice analysis. I think the conclusion you have reached matches what most believe. If you plan to keep the car 3 years or less, then leasing is better. 4 years is a push and 5 means you should buy. As always, getting a new car every 3 years is more expensive than keeping cars for 5+ years (as a general rule).

Again this isn't a lease vs buy thread, just an informative look at how BMW leasing works and how to get the best lease deal possible.
I know, I didn't want to start a new thread and I couldnt' find a sticky lease vs buy thread. If you have a link to one I'll move the post. But mostly I just wanted to highlight the math and relevant variables to really doing an accurate financial analysis. I know many here have the funds to throw money around and not worry about the rough edges, but in my profession this kind of thought exercise is routine.

In the end the conclusion wasn't really pro lease or pro buying and as you said supports conventional wisdom.
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      05-26-2015, 01:56 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whttiger25 View Post
I know, I didn't want to start a new thread and I couldnt' find a sticky lease vs buy thread. If you have a link to one I'll move the post. But mostly I just wanted to highlight the math and relevant variables to really doing an accurate financial analysis. I know many here have the funds to throw money around and not worry about the rough edges, but in my profession this kind of thought exercise is routine.

In the end the conclusion wasn't really pro lease or pro buying and as you said supports conventional wisdom.
I don't think there is a lease vs buy thread. You could start one. Many may find it helpful especially if they use it to post their specific situations. Then the data could be applied individually and used to determine if it's better to lease than buy.
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      05-26-2015, 01:57 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRib View Post
I don't think there is a lease vs buy thread. You could start one. Many may find it helpful especially if they use it to post their specific situations. Then the data could be applied individually and used to determine if it's better to lease than buy.
Sure...and I didn't mean to put the hair pulling emoticon there, accidental click!
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      05-26-2015, 02:01 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Whttiger25 View Post
Sure...and I didn't mean to put the hair pulling emoticon there, accidental click!
No problem.

I ignored it because it didn't fit with the tone of the rest of your post.

I took it out of my quoted post so others aren't confused.
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      05-26-2015, 02:49 PM   #248
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Really good post Whittiger25! The only things that really can't be calculated but we all know exists are operating/maintenance costs of these cars in the long term. It would be something to consider when purchasing/owning the vehicle longer than the 3 years when compared to leasing. Also there is the hassel of reselling the vehicle that you can't really put a price on either. Just some things to consider when owning vs. leasing.
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      05-26-2015, 02:53 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
Really good post Whittiger25! The only things that really can't be calculated but we all know exists are operating/maintenance costs of these cars in the long term. It would be something to consider when purchasing/owning the vehicle longer than the 3 years when compared to leasing. Also there is the hassel of reselling the vehicle that you can't really put a price on either. Just some things to consider when owning vs. leasing.
That's true! You could also purchase extended warranty and maintenance and factor that into the analysis.

FYI I moved this to a separate thread because this thread shoudl be more about leasing than leasing vs buying.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1131415
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      05-28-2015, 01:57 PM   #250
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M4 European Delivery

So I made a build for an M4 on the website and MSRP came out to $66,650.

So this is what I calculated...

ED MSRP= $61,984.50
ED Invoice= $57,645.50
Sale Price= $58,645.50
Money Factor= 0.0016
Residual= 60%=$39,990
Lease term= 36 months
Down payment= $0
Other fees= $2000?
Tax NY= 8.63%

Monthly depreciation fee= 518.21

Monthly Lease fee=157.816

Tax= 58.34

Monthly lease Payment= 734.37

Drive off 2000+734.37=2734.37

Sale price is hypothetical... $1k over ED Invoice? If that's reasonable do all other numbers seem correct?

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      05-28-2015, 02:16 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCastano09 View Post
So I made a build for an M4 on the website and MSRP came out to $66,650.

So this is what I calculated...

ED MSRP= $61,984.50
ED Invoice= $57,645.50
Sale Price= $58,645.50
Money Factor= 0.0016
Residual= 60%=$39,990
Lease term= 36 months
Down payment= $0
Other fees= $2000?
Tax NY= 8.63%

Monthly depreciation fee= 518.21

Monthly Lease fee=29.85

Tax= 47.30

Monthly lease Payment= 595.36

Drive off 2000+595.36=2595.36

Sale price is hypothetical... $1k over ED Invoice? If that's reasonable do all other numbers seem correct?
I would need the US MSRP to do a calculation. Lease residuals, even for ED, are based off of US MSRP.

Also you'll get more hits and views if you post it in this thread.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=934675
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      05-28-2015, 02:19 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRib View Post
I would need the US MSRP to do a calculation. Lease residuals, even for ED, are based off of US MSRP.
The MSRP given with the options I want is $66,650. That's the number I used. Bone stock MSRP is $64,200. Also the residual and mf value are assumed since I don't know what the actual numbers are for this month. Thanks
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      05-28-2015, 02:57 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCastano09 View Post
The MSRP given with the options I want is $66,650. That's the number I used. Bone stock MSRP is $64,200. Also the residual and mf value are assumed since I don't know what the actual numbers are for this month. Thanks
Sorry I missed that up top.

Here are May residuals
36 month mf .00129 ED is 0.00159
M3
15k 62%
12k 64%
10k 65%
M4
15k 59%
12k 61%
10k 62%
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      05-28-2015, 03:00 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCastano09 View Post
The MSRP given with the options I want is $66,650. That's the number I used. Bone stock MSRP is $64,200. Also the residual and mf value are assumed since I don't know what the actual numbers are for this month. Thanks
I'm getting $752/month. That's assuming 59% residual for a 15k/year lease.
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      05-28-2015, 03:14 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRib
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCastano09 View Post
The MSRP given with the options I want is $66,650. That's the number I used. Bone stock MSRP is $64,200. Also the residual and mf value are assumed since I don't know what the actual numbers are for this month. Thanks
I'm getting $752/month. That's assuming 59% residual for a 15k/year lease.
How did you get your numbers? I want to see where I messed up. I used 60% residual and .0016 MF. I guess those numbers are different now since I'll be doing 12k 36 months
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      05-28-2015, 04:11 PM   #256
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How did you get your numbers? I want to see where I messed up. I used 60% residual and .0016 MF. I guess those numbers are different now since I'll be doing 12k 36 months
Not sure where you messed up, but I used a lease calculator app. There is also a formula at the bottom of my post that you can just plug into a calculator.
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      05-28-2015, 07:37 PM   #257
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I am starting this thread in the hopes it helps those new to leasing. The emphasis is about what leasing really is, some of the terms, and its main components. If decent enough maybe the mods will make it a sticky and newbies can use it as a one stop info post/thread. Please feel free to comment and I will edit out whatever needs correction.

THIS IS NOT A LEASE VS BUY THREAD

Leasing in simple terms is paying for the amount of car you are using + interest and fees.
The financing company wants you to pay for the anticipated depreciation of the car and it also takes interest while this happens so they can make a profit.

Most leases are 2-4 years with 3 being the sweet spot. This is because the most depreciation happens in year one, making it unfriendly to the buyer and too many years makes it unattractive to the finance company to take back and unfriendly to the buyer who wants to change cars more frequently.

The main components of leasing are as follows.

MSRP- This is the amount on the window sticker and is used for the residual calculation.

Money factor- Basically a fancy way of saying interest rate. Whatever the money factor is, multiply by 2400 and that will tell you the interest rate. This number cans be manipulated and the dealer will not always disclose it, but if you want to make sure you aren't taken advantage of, you need this number. The money factor can change monthly.
Also BMW allows a dealer to mark up lease rates up to 0.0004. This may sound small but equates to 0.96% over the course of a lease and is pure dealer profit. Always find out the base money factor before you start negotiating lease terms.
Example
Lease factor should be in decimal form and should be a small number. For April 2015, BMW is charging a 0.00129 (0.00159 for European Delivery) lease rate for the F80/82/83.
.00129 x 2400 = 3.096%.
So the smaller the number the better.
ONE IMPORTANT MONEY FACTOR NOTE IS IF YOU ARE BUYING THE CAR VIA EUROPEAN DELIVERY, BMWFS AUTOMATICALLY ADDS 0.0003 TO THE BASE MONEY RATE. IN EXCHANGE THEY PAY ONE MONTHS PAYMENT WHILE THE CAR IS IN TRANSPORT. ITS A LOSING EQUATION FOR THE BUYER AS THE INTEREST RATE SURPASSES THE 1 MONTH PAYMENT.

Residual rate- Expressed as a percentage and varies by number of years, mileage, and model. It is based of the MSRP of the actual vehicle you are buying/ordering.This number can change every month. Obviously the more years and miles you add to the lease the lower the residual because the car won't be worth as much when you turn it in. Higher residual rates are obviously better.

***Please note there has been some misinformation from some CA's about the residual on a European delivery car. The residual is still based off of the US MSRP NOT the ED MSRP.
In the interest of being thorough and due to some lingering debate I have witnessed, I called BMWFS myself. It is now officially confirmed that for ED leases the residual value is calculated off of the US MSRP. Please DO NOT let dealers try and convince you otherwise. If they are insistent, I recommend you call BMWFS yourself while at the dealer and clear it up or have BMWFS send you written confirmation to show the dealer. ***



Example
MSRP is 50000
Residual of 50% means you will finance 25000 over the term of your lease
Residual of 60% means you finance 20000 over the term of the lease.

Cap cost- This is the price you have negotiated on the car. Yes that's right, you can negotiate the price on a leased car.

Cap cost reduction- This is any money used to reduce the total cap cost. It can be incentives, trade in, or cash. This is generally something to avoid because you CAN lose that money if you total the car. It is also money spent on something you are renting. You would be better off using it for something else. It is possible to get cap cost back if the insurance company pays more than payoff amount left on the car. It's a risk and only you can decide if it's worth it.
The other big issue with cap cost reduction is transferring the lease or pull ahead lease end.
It's hard to recoup the money in a lease transfer. The other party is not likely to give you any of that money back (no one wants to give you cash that you spent to make your payment lower).
If a lower monthly payment is needed, makes you feel better, or gets it past the gatekeeper (aka spouse/parent/significant other) then you are better off using MSDs (explained below). You could also take the money (that was going to be used as cap cost reduction) and put it into a separate account. You then transfer a small amount over every month to make the payment lower.

Multiple Security Deposits (MSDs)- This is a BMW tool to bring down the money factor which in turn will reduce your monthly payment. It is returned at the end of the lease and is a good tool to lower your payment, but there are a few caveats.
1- You will not get it back if you fail to make good on your end of the lease (don't pay the monthly payment)
2- Again difficult to get someone to give you that money when transferring the lease.
3- End of lease charges are taken first before money is paid (damage, over mileage, etc.)
A maximum of 7 MSDs can be applied. Each one reduces the money factor 0.00007. Each MSD costs the monthly payment rounded up to the nearest $50.

Example

Original money factor is 0.0013
0.0013 x 2400 = 3.12
You buy 5 MSDs
0.0013 - (0.00007 x 5)= 0.00095
0.00095 x 2400 = 2.28

You reduced your interest rate from 3.12 to 2.28 with money you get back at the end of the lease.

Why does BMW do this?. Mostly because they can invest it and it gives them cash in hand to take for damage without having to chase after money at lease turn in.

Acquisition fee- Basically a loan origination fee. Right now base fee is $795 for BMW as of 1/1/2015 (can be raised to $995 max by dealer). Varies by manufacturer.

Disposition fee- BMW charges $350. Its a fee BMW charges so the dealer can "dispose" of the car (usually prepping/transporting for the next buyer). This fee is waived if you go into another lease or buy a new car through BMWFS, buy the currently leased car, transfer the lease, or sell it (you still need to pay BMWFS what you still owe them).

Taxes- This can differ from state to state and even within a state. Some states require the full purchase price be taxed up front, some counties within a state add an additional tax, and some states tax at a different rate for lease than buying. Check with your state as this topic is too broad to tackle in this post.

Now that we understand the terms, some quick tips.

Every leasing company has slightly different rules for the leases. You have to investigate them individually. For this section I will use BMW as the example.

BMW expects the car returned in the condition it was picked up. This means any mods must be reversible. Don't bolt on a wing to the trunk, paint the car a different color, change the interior material, etc. Mods like springs, wheels, grill changes are fine as long as you change it back when you turn it in. Some dealers will work with you on this and will let you add OEM parts. As with anything, check first before modding. Some mods can be rolled into the lease if they are added during the original order (black grills for the M3/M4 is one example). Other mods can be sold after you turn the car in (ex. Bavsound speakers).

One special topic is tires. Most tires will need to be replaced before end of lease. You are allowed to by any tire as long as it is of the same rating/size/performance. If the car came with Pilot Super Sports, Bridgestone Potenza will be fine. IF YOUR CAR CAME WITH RUNFLATS IT HAS TO BE RETURNED WITH RUNFLATS. Many people forget this and get dinged at lease turn in. Tread depth must be 4/32" or greater. One way to get around this would be to shorten the lease to 24 months. You may still have enough tread to turn it in without buying more tires and the increased monthly payment may be negated by avoiding the tire cost.

BMW requires an lease end inspection that usually is setup up about 75 days from the lease maturity date. This is an independent company. When completed you will receive a report and it will detail any repairs that are needed. You can fix it or still just turn it in and be billed by BMW later.

Fees also vary by state but shouldn't be much different than buying a car. These fees include the usual doc fee, admin fee, title, etch. Watch for dummy fees. These can be paid upfront or rolled into the monthly cost. Its up to you to spot bogus or marked up fees. Spoke like to pay them upfront and not deal with the interest of them over three years. Some like to pay as little as possible at signing. Usually the rule of thumb is to pay these upfront because they most are mandatory and why pay interest on them if you don't have to.

BMW does provide the option to buy additional mileage before the lease ends. Its usually at a reduced rate compared to turn in, but higher than the mileage cost of adding it in at the beginning of the lease. You can crunch the numbers if you believe you will be in between mileage at lease end. Generally you want enough mileage so you aren't constantly looking for excuses not to drive it.
I am editing this slightly and adding some details about buying excess miles.

*BMWFS will refunded purchased miles you do not use, but they don't specify how much you are refunded.

*You can pay for extra miles in increments or in lump sum payment if buying them outside of 120 days of lease end.

*Within 120 days up to the day before lease maturity, you can buy miles in lump sum payment.

*Payment is subject to sales tax

*Miles are currently $0.16/mile before lease end compared to $0.20 after lease end. ($0.22 vs $0.25 for 7 series)

Be realistic with yourself about the mileage and its probably better to slightly underestimate than over, because the rebate on unused miles is embarrassingly low.

BMW financial also automatically includes GAP insurance. This is a nice touch because you don't need to get it yourself.

BMW provides a "ding-o-meter" which shows how much damage is acceptable. This makes it easy to get an idea if you are going to need to fix certain defects.

You are also allowed to return your BMW to any authorized dealer (likely any US dealer) but they usually need to be notified (about 90 days). You can't just show up at a random dealer and drop of the car without expecting a huge hassle.

BMW also makes it fairly painless to transfer a lease. This is nice because it reduces your financial exposure should you need to get out of the payments. It also makes it important to make a good deal as it will make your transfer more desirable. I have added a special section further down this post that covers lease transfers in more detail.

Another important tip. You are always allowed to buy out the lease or sell the car whenever you want. As long as BMWFS gets the money they are owed, they don't care. This can be helpful if the car is worth more than the residual. This can happen at any time and some dealers (esp BMW) will gladly take your lease early if the car is in demand. Many forum members have taken advantage of this little known fact to get into new cars sooner than their lease term. Also since you can drop off at any dealer, you could shop your car around to multiple dealers and see if anyone will buy for more than the residual. If the dealer buys your leased car from BMWFS, they should be taking it as is (make sure they do). Now you won't have to worry about any lease inspection charges.

Example
2013 M3 with a residual of 55% after 3 years (MSRP $75000) Buy out is $41,250. You go to turn the BMW in and ask if they want to buy it. They say yes and offer $43,000. You get $1,650 in cash or towards the next car.
This works prior to lease end, you just need to have them offer more than the current buy out.

Also look for smartphone apps or websites that will let you calculate lease prices. This lets you plug the numbers in right along with the dealer to make sure it all adds up properly. A quick search through Google Play Store or IPhone App Store will give you some choices. By having the program ready the dealer is less likely to mess around with your numbers, it takes some of the stress off of you (because you don't have to have every aspect memorized), and some apps let you save each deal individually for comparison. I am not going to endorse any specific lease apps or spreadsheet calculators. There is enough good info out there where each person can make a decision on what to use. I will say whatever program/app you choose, double check it with posted deals in this forum first. That way you will verify it's working properly.

So that is leasing in a nutshell.

If you want some one to rate your deal you will need to include MSRP, Negotiated price (cap cost), money factor, years, allowed mileage, cap cost reductions, number of MSDs, and monthly cost.
Please add comments/corrections/suggestions.

Special Section on lease transfers
BMW typically has one of the most painless lease transfer policies. Basically any lease further out than 6 months to maturity can be transferred. Exceptions are made for cars within 6 months. Also the lease must be current with no other liens/parking tickets/etch. The process usually takes about 4 weeks. If you think you will want to transfer a lease, it is best to completely avoid cap cost reduction and MSDs. It makes it harder to do the lease transfer if you expect some or all of that money back. Most times the accepting party will not have any interest in paying you that money.

One huge point that must be made is when you transfer a lease with BMWFS they also transfer over responsibility to the new lessee. The original person leasing walks away free and clear. This is a big time perk.

First stage- The lessee needs to find a person willing to take it over. How they find said person is up to them. Many will use this forum, some other lease swapping sites. You could just ask family ,friends, or put an add in the paper.

Once you find a potential trading partner. You must notify BMWFS of you intention to transfer the lease and the assumer must submit a credit application with BMWFS along with $500. $100 is a nonrefundable credit application and $400 is the lease transfer fee (refunded if you fail the credit app.

If approved, both parties are sent paperwork to complete. Approval decision is completed in 48 hours or less. The current lease holder will not know the credit decision until the assumed lets them know. Remember this if you ever try and transfer a lease. It is key that whoever you are dealing with needs to be accessible. If you can't get in contact with them the prices can drag out or you could miss out on another candidate while you play telephone tag.

Second stage- BMWFS creates transfer documents within 1-2 days and sends them to each party. They must be completed and sent back with original signatures. Again one party dragging their feet really slows down the process. Also the vehicle must be added to the transferee's policy at this point.

Third stage- BMW mails out final paperwork to both parties. The transferor gets a confirmation letter that the process is complete and the transferee gets all the documents necessary to register the vehicle. At this point the parties meet and the car is exchanged. The transferor needs to remove their plate and cancel the registration.

The whole process takes about 3-4 weeks, but can be faster if both parties are diligent. If the entire process takes longer than. 60 days then the whole things goes back to square 1, including the fees.

Lease transfer while convenient, is one scenario where MSD's are not a great idea. Any MSD money is transferred over to the assumed. This is why you will see some try and recoup that money. Most times you have take the loss as assumes have no incentive to give you that money.

Thanks to M6-Coupe for this great lease cost breakdown
This is the formula that dealers use to calculate the lease payment:

If the residual value is "R" ; R = MSRP x Residual (%)
The Capital cost (sales price) is "C"
Money Factor is "MF"
Down payment is "D"
Lease term is "N" ; number of months (ie 36 or 39)
Monthly depreciation fee "MD" = (C-D-R)/N
Monthly lease fee "ML" = MF * (C-D+R)
Then the monthly lease payment= MD +ML + tax
Drive off : The upfront money including all other fees ( bank fee , acquisition fee, license fee, etc) + first month payment


For example.
MSRP =100k
Capital cost (sales price after 10k discount) = 90k
MF = 0.0013
Residual = 60% = 60k
lease term = 36 months
Down payment = 0
other fees = 2K
tax = 8%

MD = 30k/36 = 833.3
ML = 195
tax = %8 * (833.3 + 195) =82.2
monthly lease payment = 833.3 + 195 + 82.2 = 1110.5

Drive off = 2000 +1110.5 = 3110.5

Note: according to tax, this calculation is based on CA tax which is tax on lease cost. some states calculate the tax based on whole capital cost.
For the ML factoring using your given equation Monthly lease fee= MF x (C-D+R)... wouldn't you do the down payment plus the residual, and then subtract that number from the Cap Cost. Due to the rules of addition and subtraction? Maybe i'm getting confused by looking at this too much ahha. you just added the cap and residual and then multiplied by the MF. Don't think thats how it works.
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      05-28-2015, 08:17 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCastano09 View Post
For the ML factoring using your given equation Monthly lease fee= MF x (C-D+R)... wouldn't you do the down payment plus the residual, and then subtract that number from the Cap Cost. Due to the rules of addition and subtraction? Maybe i'm getting confused by looking at this too much ahha. you just added the cap and residual and then multiplied by the MF. Don't think thats how it works.
It was confusing to me also, but I double checked it when I first listed it. It is correct as is. Done this way to avoid overly complex constant yield annuity business formulas.

The best way to calculate a lease payment is to use the leasematic app (only available on Apple). It was created by a forum member and he has been working on an android version, but none right now.
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      05-28-2015, 08:18 PM   #259
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Ok cool I just downloaded the app. Maybe you should reword the formula as ((C-D)+R).
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      05-28-2015, 08:31 PM   #260
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Ok cool I just downloaded the app. Maybe you should reword the formula as ((C-D)+R).
That is a good idea.
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      05-29-2015, 06:56 PM   #261
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Does anyone know the details if you wanted to do a one-pay lease (pay all payments up front)? Is there a set MF if you do one-pay or is there a MF discount? If the latter can that be combined with MSDs to lower the rate further?

I need some big write-offs for this year and one-pay is a good option for that I think.
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      05-29-2015, 10:32 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by jttBimmer View Post
Does anyone know the details if you wanted to do a one-pay lease (pay all payments up front)? Is there a set MF if you do one-pay or is there a MF discount? If the latter can that be combined with MSDs to lower the rate further?

I need some big write-offs for this year and one-pay is a good option for that I think.
Not sure about that one. I recommend you call BMWFS or pm GOLFFRR
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      05-30-2015, 07:54 PM   #263
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Hey guys so what are the "standard" fee's that I am actually supposed to pay and what is bogus?

I know the Acquisition Fee and Doc Fee are common ones. Acquisition fees are at $795 and Doc fee I think people said can be 0 but max go around $80? I know they vary by state, I am in California so I am seeing stuff on a mock build from a couple months ago with these things on it that are questionable:

Other - $29
Tag/Registration $506 (estimate) - Anyway for me to calculate this before?
Government Fees - $485 - The heck is this...isn't it just registration that is above?
Flatt Add/County Fee - $10
Electronic Filing - $29
Smog Abatement Fee - $20

I know some of the rest or nickel/dime but still want to know what I can and cannot be charged for.

Thanks!
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      05-30-2015, 08:21 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by texxy View Post
Hey guys so what are the "standard" fee's that I am actually supposed to pay and what is bogus?

I know the Acquisition Fee and Doc Fee are common ones. Acquisition fees are at $795 and Doc fee I think people said can be 0 but max go around $80? I know they vary by state, I am in California so I am seeing stuff on a mock build from a couple months ago with these things on it that are questionable:

***Other - $29
Tag/Registration $506 (estimate) - Anyway for me to calculate this before?
***Government Fees - $485 - The heck is this...isn't it just registration that is above?
Flatt Add/County Fee - $10
***Electronic Filing - $29
Smog Abatement Fee - $20

I know some of the rest or nickel/dime but still want to know what I can and cannot be charged for.

Thanks!
Not the biggest expert on fees but the fees I put an asterisk next to sound bogus.
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