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      01-02-2019, 11:15 AM   #1
kevinmkirn
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Tire problems at first track day

Hi,
Did my first track day through Hooked on Driving at PBIR about 10 days ago. Stock 2018 M3 with competition package, Pilot Super Sports, 3,000 miles. I didn't monitor the tire pressures/wear closely (regretfully), but the couple times I did showed around 36 psi right after coming off the track. Temperatures in the 60s. I ran in the novice group but felt like I pushed the car pretty well. Ran a total of 120 minutes (six 20-minute sessions) throughout the day. At the end of the day, noticed the left front outside had been "corded" (lots of right hand turns at PBIR), so I had to replace both fronts. (See the attached tire photo).
Would greatly appreciate advice on how to extend tire life, keeping in mind that I don't have ability to perform any maintenance on my own and will need to take the car to a shop for any mods/adjustments. Sounds like I should expect tires to last at least 2-3 track days under normal use. I certainly understand that my lack of track experience contributed to the shortened tire lifespan; hopefully as I gain more experience I will learn how to be easier on the tires. Thanks.
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      01-02-2019, 12:39 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmkirn View Post
Hi,
Did my first track day through Hooked on Driving at PBIR about 10 days ago. Stock 2018 M3 with competition package, Pilot Super Sports, 3,000 miles. I didn't monitor the tire pressures/wear closely (regretfully), but the couple times I did showed around 36 psi right after coming off the track. Temperatures in the 60s. I ran in the novice group but felt like I pushed the car pretty well. Ran a total of 120 minutes (six 20-minute sessions) throughout the day. At the end of the day, noticed the left front outside had been "corded" (lots of right hand turns at PBIR), so I had to replace both fronts. (See the attached tire photo).
Would greatly appreciate advice on how to extend tire life, keeping in mind that I don't have ability to perform any maintenance on my own and will need to take the car to a shop for any mods/adjustments. Sounds like I should expect tires to last at least 2-3 track days under normal use. I certainly understand that my lack of track experience contributed to the shortened tire lifespan; hopefully as I gain more experience I will learn how to be easier on the tires. Thanks.
That looks like pretty normal wear outside of the chunking which tore up the tread... Looks like cold weather. I'd try to give it a lap or two next time to "warp up" your tires before tossing the car around hard. Not much else to do beside that or move to a different tire compound.
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      01-02-2019, 01:22 PM   #3
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Lack of camber, plus as much as everyone thinks that Michelins are jesus tires, PSS and such are not great track day tires. They cord and chunk easily when they get hot.
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      01-02-2019, 02:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindspin311 View Post
Lack of camber, plus as much as everything thinks that Michelins are jesus tires, PSS and such are not great track day tires. They cord and chunk easily when they get hot.
Exactly.

Add camber plates and run around -2 to -2.5 degrees camber. My car lowered and stock plates was only -1.6 (and lowering with mac strut doesn't gain camber).

For tires best bet is to buy an extra set of wheels and tires for track day use. Keep an eye on the forums and deals will pop up.
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      01-02-2019, 04:41 PM   #5
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Ditto.

Camber plates, better tires. Camber plates will solve two issues.

1) It will make the tires wear more evenly
2) It will give more front grip which will make front/rear wear more even
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      01-02-2019, 09:02 PM   #6
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Another plug for camber plates and track tires. MPSS are “high performance summer tires” and not recommended for the track per Michelin (I called them about a side wall failure from my second track weekend with this chassis and that was the first thing I was told....wanted to go completely stock a couple times to feel the car out). I’ve run MSC2s and it’s night and day.
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      01-02-2019, 10:36 PM   #7
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I like the ground control camber plates, I've gotten easily 2-3x the track days with the same type of tire
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      01-03-2019, 09:42 AM   #8
kevinmkirn
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Thanks for the great feedback everyone.
As mentioned earlier, I don't have any ability to do any of this work myself and I live in a condo so it will be tough to find a place to store a second set of tires. I only drive about 6,000 miles per year as my commute here in South Florida is quite short. Do I need to have the camber adjusted before each track day and then reset after the track day to its original setting or can I leave it in the track setting for my daily driving? Where can I get that kind of work done as I assume the BMW dealership wouldn't be the best place to do that. Also, I hadn't heard that PSS's weren't acceptable for novice track duty.
Thanks again.
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      01-03-2019, 10:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmkirn View Post
Thanks for the great feedback everyone.
As mentioned earlier, I don't have any ability to do any of this work myself and I live in a condo so it will be tough to find a place to store a second set of tires. I only drive about 6,000 miles per year as my commute here in South Florida is quite short. Do I need to have the camber adjusted before each track day and then reset after the track day to its original setting or can I leave it in the track setting for my daily driving? Where can I get that kind of work done as I assume the BMW dealership wouldn't be the best place to do that. Also, I hadn't heard that PSS's weren't acceptable for novice track duty.
Thanks again.
When you change camber it also affects toe. The issue is the combination of added camber and excessive toe will eat tires during daily driving. Thus its not great to change the setting for track and change back later. I would get camber plates, have them installed and set to a tolerable setting for you. From my reading in here that's about -2.5 degrees for the f80 I think and you can run zero toe or slight toe in.

On the tire issue I'd buy a set of tires that can handle highway and track use. The only thing you're dealing with in FL is occasional rain, NBD. Think tires like RE-71R, AD-08, RE-11, etc.
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      01-03-2019, 10:44 AM   #10
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None of the camber plates for the f8x chassis are as easily adjustable between settings like of previous generations due to the strut tower design and all of the additional (but welcomed) bracing up front. It can be done, but it's much more PITA than older setups. Thus, I have the GC (ground control) camber plates set to -2.5 camber and 0.05 toe out as well as the rear of the car set to -1.7 camber and neutral toe all the time. Toe will eat tires more than camber, and fortunately adding negative camber changes toe in the correct direction. A good local independent shop used to working on these cars can do the work and alignment for you.

As far as tires, I'd recommend a dedicated set of wheels/tires for the track. Less compromising for street vs track driving/tracking/conditions, and you'll always have spares if something happens to one rather than being stranded at the track...All 4 fit in the backseat of my M4 with a jack and tools and cooler and helmet and weekend bag in the trunk.
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      01-03-2019, 12:50 PM   #11
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it held up pretty good if it lasted entire track day
my brand new PSS lasted exactly 3 laps and outer edges tore apart

like everyone else said, adding camber will solve the issue

also PSS does NOT like heat.
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      01-03-2019, 01:04 PM   #12
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You can get away with 2.5F/1.7R camber in a street driven setup and not have excessive wear. Thats what I run on my E46. For toe, just have it set to factory specs. If you want ti slightly more oriented for track, then 0 toe in the front, and factory in the rear is a good starting point.
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      01-03-2019, 04:56 PM   #13
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I'll simply re-iterate what other have already mentioned.

First, the PSS are simply inadequate for sustained dry track use. They will just melt and chunk away on the softer outer portion of the tread when good heat is put into them. Your pictures mirror my own personal experience with the PSS on a dry track. They are however fantastic wet track tires.

Second, if you intend to track more regularly (4+ track days per year), it might be worthwhile considering camber plates. The cost of the plates will pay for themselves in tire wear after 6 to 8 rack days. Camber plates become essential if you move to R-compound tires. R-comps need decent camber to operate optimally and you could end-up destroying them even faster than the PSS without proper camber.
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      01-04-2019, 11:12 AM   #14
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Thanks for all the help

Sounds like I need to get a set of track wheels/tires, get some camber plates installed, and buy a jack I can take to the track with me! I've gotten a good local recommendation for a shop that sets up cars for track use and will keep my eyes open here for a set of track wheels/tires. If anyone has any recommendations on tires, that would be appreciated. I had a set of Apex rims on my previous car, so I'll probably go that route. Thanks again everyone!
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      01-04-2019, 11:13 AM   #15
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Apex ARC-8 with some Hankook RS4 would be my go to. They don't have the ultimate grip of something like an RE71R, but they will last a hell of a lot longer.
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      01-04-2019, 02:29 PM   #16
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What has been said above is true...I would only add that PS4S are much better at outer tire wear...I can only speak from comparing my buddy's Comp package MPSS vs my Non-ZCP 255 front PS4S... keep in mind we both run respectable advanced group times at PBIR. Quite honestly Ive been very surprised at how well my PS4S have held up, but nonetheless I'm missing camber plates.

One last thing, for damage limitation purposes i would try running higher PSI... maybe as high as 40 and see how you feel. That should help some.
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      01-04-2019, 04:02 PM   #17
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You guys can scream camber all you want, but if you look closely at the tires, CAMBER isn't the only or even primary issue. The tire wore fairly evenly all the way out except the outside shoulder.

Which indicates to me excessive speed scrubbing at corner entry. It's not the tires, nor the car, it's the DRIVER. You have to learn that screaming into a turn without slowing down the car isn't the fastest way around the track, nor the cheapest because you will eat up tires like crazy.
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      01-04-2019, 05:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
You guys can scream camber all you want, but if you look closely at the tires, CAMBER isn't the only or even primary issue. The tire wore fairly evenly all the way out except the outside shoulder.

Which indicates to me excessive speed scrubbing at corner entry. It's not the tires, nor the car, it's the DRIVER. You have to learn that screaming into a turn without slowing down the car isn't the fastest way around the track, nor the cheapest because you will eat up tires like crazy.
With driver mod, OP will get 3-4 dry track days out of the tire instead of 1.

Still good to get camber plates and replace MPSS if he is going to be a regular track user.
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      01-04-2019, 06:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindspin311 View Post
Apex ARC-8 with some Hankook RS4 would be my go to. They don't have the ultimate grip of something like an RE71R, but they will last a hell of a lot longer.
ARC-8 are not really recommended for the F8X since they have a rather small inner barrel. 18" will not fit over the iron brakes and the 19" will not fit over the CCB. Better to go the EC-7/SM-7/FL-5 route.
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      01-04-2019, 06:42 PM   #20
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gotta admit, first time I opened a PDF for a picture
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      01-04-2019, 09:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
With driver mod, OP will get 3-4 dry track days out of the tire instead of 1.

Still good to get camber plates and replace MPSS if he is going to be a regular track user.
what would be the appropriate driver mod in this case? Braking more, slowing the car down more, then maintenance throttle until apex? and then add more throttle as you unwind the steering? is it possible to add more throttle prior to the apex?
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      01-05-2019, 12:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
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what would be the appropriate driver mod in this case? Braking more, slowing the car down more, then maintenance throttle until apex? and then add more throttle as you unwind the steering? is it possible to add more throttle prior to the apex?
No. If you need to accelerate between turn-in and apex, it means you slowed down too much prior to turn-in. Contrary to what is taught in most HPDE, the fast way around the vast majority of corners is to decelerate all the way to the apex and then accelerate from there.
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