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      07-30-2019, 02:17 PM   #1
biofluke
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PFC 08 vs 11 for occasional HPDE

Hey guys, looking for some collective wisdom. I've been searching and searching and I see a lot of opinions and can't seem to find a general consensus.

People say that the 08 last a lot longer, but lack initial bite. However, I've read people say that if you are just doing HPDE's, this is the pad to go with since they last so long and since I'm not competing, I won't miss the extra initial bite.

I've read that the PFC 11 has better initial bite, but is overall not going to last as long. PFC 11 might be easier on the rotors? Overall it sounds like the PFC 11 might be a better performing brake pad, at the cost of longevity.

Can anyone weigh in as to which pad compound they would choose and why?

I am going to be doing about 2-3 2-day events a year, so about 4-6 track events a year. The plan is to swap these pads in for the event, and only leave them in on the street if I have two events like a few weeks apart.

While I'm curious about the noise, it is not a determining factor.

How many HPDE days can you get out of the PFC 11 vs the PFC 8? I've heard the PFC 11 will last 20% less time, has anyone confirmed this experience?

If you are currently running either one, are you happy with them?

I will be running on MPS4's for 2 events this year, but am going to try to get a dedicated Wheel/tire setup with Nitto NT01 for next summer. Does the type of tire your running have an impact on which pad you should choose?

I appreciate the advice in advance.
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      07-30-2019, 04:46 PM   #2
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Hello and welcome to the forum

The PFC11 is part of the new family of pads. It was launched in the 991 generation GT3 Cup car which comes with PFC brakes, so the Cup car comes from the factory with PFC BBK and PFC11 compound. This should tell you a lot

The current family has:
PFC11 (dedicated track pad) -- replacement of old PFC01 pad
PFC12 (dedicated endurance track pad) -- replacement of old PFC08 pad
PFC13 (dedicated sprint track pad)

Depending on your caliper you will not have all the options - only us lucky bastards with PFC BBKs can choose between the 3 of them. So, it's possible you only can choose between the PFC11 and the PFC08.

I've run PFC08, 12 and 11.
PFC08 lasts a long time and is very noisy on the street like all track pads. If overdriven it always maintains bite and performance but gets consumed at an accelerated pace. Whether you can do this or not is not evident and hard to answer without knowing how fast you are.
PFC12 is simply a better version of the 08 pad, better in every way.
PFC11 is a racier pad for faster people. Depending on your pace it lasts longer than the 08 as it does not see accelerated wear. But the best part of it is that it's pretty quiet on the street once used at a track day. I literally leave these pads on two track cars and am just fine driving to/from the track and occasional street use. So even though the BBKs offer a very simple way to change pads I still leave the PFC11s in there

If your only options are PFC08 and PFC11, definitely get the 11, it is much newer.

All PFC pads have very easy break in procedures (= drive your first lap at a moderate pace) and are really consistent with their bite as well as not wanting to eat your rotors for lunch. I don't know how many pads I've gone through over the years in the 3 cars that have used PFC BBKs, plus another car with stock setup, but they are the cat's pajamas.


About tires: personally I would prefer to have camber plates and just swap the tires in my street wheels to the RE71R, as they are faster than the NT01s which are a huge PITA to drive to the track. But a separate set of wheels is always a nice thing to have, but even then I'd prefer the RE71R
Any of these pads will work perfectly fine with street tires. If you were moving to a slick (BFG R1/R1S or Hoosier) you should really go with the PFC11

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      07-31-2019, 12:59 AM   #3
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SYT touched on everything but I will say that my PFC11s are the loudest/noisiest brakes on earth. I can't street them at all.
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      07-31-2019, 02:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
SYT touched on everything but I will say that my PFC11s are the loudest/noisiest brakes on earth. I can't street them at all.
No doubt and PFC 08 arenít much better for noise. They did get just a little soft at a brake heavy track like Laguna Seca, but would probably work pretty well just about anywhere else depending on your driving style and pace. Coming from Pagid RS29, PFC08 are an upgrade in heat tolerance and PFC11 maybe even better.

Having tracked both Bridgestone RE 71R and now Nitto NT01, my observations are as follows: tires are fairly comparable in terms of lap times and grip, but Bridgestone will fall off after given number of heat cycles/sessions. For me, this was about 15 heat cycles or three track days - still going on NT01 at 22 heat cycles. Driving both to and from the track, no noticeable difference in noise, etc.
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      07-31-2019, 08:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biofluke View Post
Hey guys, looking for some collective wisdom. I've been searching and searching and I see a lot of opinions and can't seem to find a general consensus.

People say that the 08 last a lot longer, but lack initial bite. However, I've read people say that if you are just doing HPDE's, this is the pad to go with since they last so long and since I'm not competing, I won't miss the extra initial bite.

I've read that the PFC 11 has better initial bite, but is overall not going to last as long. PFC 11 might be easier on the rotors? Overall it sounds like the PFC 11 might be a better performing brake pad, at the cost of longevity.

Can anyone weigh in as to which pad compound they would choose and why?

I am going to be doing about 2-3 2-day events a year, so about 4-6 track events a year. The plan is to swap these pads in for the event, and only leave them in on the street if I have two events like a few weeks apart.

While I'm curious about the noise, it is not a determining factor.

How many HPDE days can you get out of the PFC 11 vs the PFC 8? I've heard the PFC 11 will last 20% less time, has anyone confirmed this experience?

If you are currently running either one, are you happy with them?

I will be running on MPS4's for 2 events this year, but am going to try to get a dedicated Wheel/tire setup with Nitto NT01 for next summer. Does the type of tire your running have an impact on which pad you should choose?

I appreciate the advice in advance.
I've ran Pagid, Ferodo, Hawk, and PFCs on the F80 (OEM steel brakes). Low initial bite sounds OK in theory, but in practice I found it unnerving and lacking a sense of confidence. On top of that, neither PFC08s nor the Pagid RS29s could deal with the pace of an immediate/advanced driver, both fading/getting soft quite easily. They wear good if managed-appropriately and driven within their limits. Noise for all are similar for street driving with Hawk's providing the worst (no issues daily driving any of them though).

If you're running them with a BBK kit the conclusion might be different, but for the stock setup the Ferodo DS1.11/Dsuno are the best pads available. I personally wouldn't recommend going with PFC08 nor Pagid 29s. No experience with the 11's but I assume they're more up to the task vs the 08s (I'm interested in hearing how the 12's are too).

You can ran any pad with any tire, but it will be more difficult to modulate threshold-braking with less aggressive street tires vs slicks/R-comp/Super200. No issues running NT01s nor RE71s with the pads mentioned.

Some good information provided by Shadow as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
SYT touched on everything but I will say that my PFC11s are the loudest/noisiest brakes on earth. I can't street them at all.
It's a good thing this car is well-insulated from outside noises!
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      07-31-2019, 10:26 AM   #6
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My PFC11s glazed up quickly too but that was my fault. I do notice they fall off in the last session or two on a really hot day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
No doubt and PFC 08 aren’t much better for noise. They did get just a little soft at a brake heavy track like Laguna Seca, but would probably work pretty well just about anywhere else depending on your driving style and pace. Coming from Pagid RS29, PFC08 are an upgrade in heat tolerance and PFC11 maybe even better.

Having tracked both Bridgestone RE 71R and now Nitto NT01, my observations are as follows: tires are fairly comparable in terms of lap times and grip, but Bridgestone will fall off after given number of heat cycles/sessions. For me, this was about 15 heat cycles or three track days - still going on NT01 at 22 heat cycles. Driving both to and from the track, no noticeable difference in noise, etc.
Conclusion I came to in my own mind:

RE71Rs are the superior tire.

NT01s are the sensible tire (financially). Doesn't heat cycle out, grips until cord, solid performance.
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      07-31-2019, 11:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron View Post
If you're running them with a BBK kit the conclusion might be different, but for the stock setup the Ferodo DS1.11/Dsuno are the best pads available. I personally wouldn't recommend going with PFC08 nor Pagid 29s. No experience with the 11's but I assume they're more up to the task vs the 08s (I'm interested in hearing how the 12's are too).
ellyroll
The 11, like the 01 of the previous gen, is a regular race pad vs an endurance race pad of the 08/12.

The 12s were nicer than the 08s but still made lots of noise. If I were not trying to win the HDPE trophy I would still run them.

The stock brakes of the F8X are pretty marginal. We should not confuse brake fade with pad fade.
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      07-31-2019, 12:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The 11, like the 01 of the previous gen, is a regular race pad vs an endurance race pad of the 08/12.

The 12s were nicer than the 08s but still made lots of noise. If I were not trying to win the HDPE trophy I would still run them.

The stock brakes of the F8X are pretty marginal. We should not confuse brake fade with pad fade.
Good points and thanks for the info on the 12s!

Edit: Totally agree on the stock steel setup being marginal, would love an opportunity to drive one with a BBK on track. I ended up adding DIY brake ducting which certainly helped, but that really is only a band-aid.
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      07-31-2019, 01:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
Having tracked both Bridgestone RE 71R and now Nitto NT01, my observations are as follows: tires are fairly comparable in terms of lap times and grip, but Bridgestone will fall off after given number of heat cycles/sessions. For me, this was about 15 heat cycles or three track days - still going on NT01 at 22 heat cycles. Driving both to and from the track, no noticeable difference in noise, etc.
Not sure I understand what you're saying -- you mean you can't notice the difference in noise between the NT01 and the RE71?

I don't share people's opinions on the NT01 despite having gone through quite a few sets. I've heatcycled the crap out of them long before losing tread.

Driving them on the street is only suitable for a masochist and although I have two dedicated track cars I still have to get to the track.
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      07-31-2019, 01:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron View Post
Good points and thanks for the info on the 12s!

Edit: Totally agree on the stock steel setup being marginal, would love an opportunity to drive one with a BBK on track. I ended up adding DIY brake ducting which certainly helped, but that really is only a band-aid.
I have the PFC Z54 caliper up front and the AP Radical in the rear. The front kit is pretty important if tracking heavily
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      07-31-2019, 02:47 PM   #11
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I find its quite random whether my PFC 11's squeal on the street or not, sometimes they are completely silent. I just leave them in as I don't drive a huge amount. When cold they feel exactly like PFC Z-rated pads to me. On track they are great, I haven't had any issues with fade on my E9x which has worse rotors than the F80.

I run RE71's on the street too, they are fine but definitely noticeably louder than my PS4S or AS/3's. I rode in a car with Nittos, they sound like a plane taking off. I wouldn't want to drive them on the street for any length of time.
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      07-31-2019, 03:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Not sure I understand what you're saying -- you mean you can't notice the difference in noise between the NT01 and the RE71?

I don't share people's opinions on the NT01 despite having gone through quite a few sets. I've heatcycled the crap out of them long before losing tread.

Driving them on the street is only suitable for a masochist and although I have two dedicated track cars I still have to get to the track.
That was my experience, I actually found the NT01 to be quieter on the street, but I only use them to get back-and-forth to the track. I did spend considerably more time on RE71 on the street as I only had one set of wheels back then and they were LOUD, particularly on smooth tarmac.

On the heat cycling, Iím putting down faster times with each subsequent track day with NT01 and couldnít say that about the bridgestones
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      07-31-2019, 03:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
That was my experience, I actually found the NT01 to be quieter on the street, but I only use them to get back-and-forth to the track. I did spend considerably more time on RE71 on the street as I only had one set of wheels back then and they were LOUD, particularly on smooth tarmac.

On the heat cycling, Iím putting down faster times with each subsequent track day with NT01 and couldnít say that about the bridgestones
And living in SoCal, we donít worry about rain grooves.......
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      07-31-2019, 03:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I have the PFC Z54 caliper up front and the AP Radical in the rear. The front kit is pretty important if tracking heavily
Looking into BBK, did you stick with stock rotors? Based on discoloration of calipers, going to go with both front and rear BBK.
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      07-31-2019, 04:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
Looking into BBK, did you stick with stock rotors? Based on discoloration of calipers, going to go with both front and rear BBK.
nopes, the PFC BBK runs specific rotors etc. So does the AP.

The rotors are as much of an upgrade as the calipers. I was hoping to keep the stock REAR F80 CS rotors and calipers but after 3 days the dust boots are charred right off

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      07-31-2019, 08:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Not sure I understand what you're saying -- you mean you can't notice the difference in noise between the NT01 and the RE71?

I don't share people's opinions on the NT01 despite having gone through quite a few sets. I've heatcycled the crap out of them long before losing tread.

Driving them on the street is only suitable for a masochist and although I have two dedicated track cars I still have to get to the track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
That was my experience, I actually found the NT01 to be quieter on the street, but I only use them to get back-and-forth to the track. I did spend considerably more time on RE71 on the street as I only had one set of wheels back then and they were LOUD, particularly on smooth tarmac.

On the heat cycling, I’m putting down faster times with each subsequent track day with NT01 and couldn’t say that about the bridgestones
I really don't believe the RE71Rs heat cycle out earlier. I was putting down very consistent laps until there was nearly no tread left On em. They weren't going to get me a PS at that point, but not far off the pace either.

When new I didn't find 71s nor the NT01s really that loud on the street. You could certainly make it to and from the track if it's dry. Both get quite loud after uneven inside to outside tire wear tho. On the track I believe the 01s were actually more audible?

I once got stuck in a down pour coming back from MidO with the nittos, which was probably the dumbest thing I've done in the M3 thus far. They are extremely sketchy in the rain at speed. Masochist is a proper word I'd say.
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      08-01-2019, 07:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron View Post
I once got stuck in a down pour coming back from MidO with the nittos, which was probably the dumbest thing I've done in the M3 thus far. They are extremely sketchy in the rain at speed. Masochist is a proper word I'd say.
were the NT01 full tread?
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      08-01-2019, 09:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
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were the NT01 full tread?
Sorry my previous paragraph was littered with grammatical errors ehh.

I'd say they were pretty close to full tread? You could feel them hydroplaning quite a bit, but maybe I was just going too fast..
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      08-01-2019, 11:53 PM   #19
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My NT01s drove pretty decently in the rain. I mean, I wouldn't go crazy or hit standing water but felt planted the whole time.
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      08-02-2019, 08:25 AM   #20
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My NT01s drove pretty decently in the rain. I mean, I wouldn't go crazy or hit standing water but felt planted the whole time.
Full down pour, standing water, etc. Drove at 50-70mph with them and no I do not think it's smart to do for multiple occasions (in those particular conditions). That's all I meant.
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      08-02-2019, 08:32 AM   #21
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You *can* drive with NT01 in the rain, it's just much worse than the RE71R

Noise-wise, besides almost going deaf driving to the track with NT01, I have track videos where you can't hear my exhaust due to the insane whine of the NT01 tire.

In comparison to the NT01 the RE71R seems like a wonderful, compliant street tire like the Michelin PS4s. Worn or not, the delta is just massive.
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      08-02-2019, 10:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
You *can* drive with NT01 in the rain, it's just much worse than the RE71R

Noise-wise, besides almost going deaf driving to the track with NT01, I have track videos where you can't hear my exhaust due to the insane whine of the NT01 tire.

In comparison to the NT01 the RE71R seems like a wonderful, compliant street tire like the Michelin PS4s. Worn or not, the delta is just massive.
No doubt the RE71R is better.

As far as the noise goes, concealing the sound of your exhaust may be a good thing in the F8x. I love this car but it sounds so terrible.
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