Tire problems at first track day

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

No wizardry involved here. Just sound and diligent brake management:

• Properly bed the pads before going on track
• Progressively warm up the brakes on the first lap before going hard on them
• Run with DSC off
• Avoid 100% brake force, go 9/10th on braking, there’s not much time to be gained out of braking anyhow
• Proper cool down lap at the end of the session without touching the brakes
• Avoid touching the brakes in the pit/paddocks (within safety reason) after getting off the track
• Drive nose first in your parking spot (don’t back up)

I thought he was talking about OEM pads? Aint nobody going 9/10ths with the stock pads for more than a few laps

[mindspin311]

I looked at the stock pads before going on track and they smeared all over the rotor.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

I thought he was talking about OEM pads? Aint nobody going 9/10ths with the stock pads for more than a few laps

True story:

After having delaminated a front RSL29 Pagid pad early on on a track day and not having spares (RSL29 were on backorder), I had to swap back to stock pads in front. I was very careful with managing the brakes and was surprised to find my lap time were only a few tenths slower. I did burn through the front pads that were almost new in less than one track day though.

I am not saying that the stock pads are adequate for track use. Quite the opposite actually. If there is a single recommendation I have for anyone going to track their car, is to install proper track pads. However it is possible to survive a track day with the stock pads with a fair bit of diligent brake management.

[petrolhead.]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

No wizardry involved here. Just sound and diligent brake management:

• Properly bed the pads before going on track
• Progressively warm up the brakes on the first lap before going hard on them
• Run with DSC off
• Avoid 100% brake force, go 9/10th on braking, there’s not much time to be gained out of braking anyhow
• Proper cool down lap at the end of the session without touching the brakes
• Avoid touching the brakes in the pit/paddocks (within safety reason) after getting off the track
• Drive nose first in your parking spot (don’t back up)

May I ask - so you're running with DSC off? Why not MDM? And why not back up to the parking spot? Thanks!

And I'd like to add - this is a freaking fantastic forum!! Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge with others!

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

True story:

After having delaminates a front RSL29 Pagid pad early in a track day and not having spares (RSL29 were on backorder), I had to swap back to stock pads in front. I was very careful with managing the brakes and was surprised to find my lap time were only a few tenths slower. I did burn through the front pads that were almost new in less than one track day though.

I am not saying that the stock pads are adequate for track used. Quite the opposite actually. If there is a single recommendation I have for anyone going to track their car, is to install proper track pads. However it is possible to survive a track with the stock pads with a fair bit of diligent brake management.

100% agree, I was just giving you a hard time!

[Habber]

I'm just curious what the replacement costs for brake parts are for a day at the track. Tires I'm aware of.

Thanks.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by petrolhead.

May I ask - so you're running with DSC off? Why not MDM? And why not back up to the parking spot? Thanks!

And I'd like to add - this is a freaking fantastic forum!! Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge with others!

Yes, DSC off. The main reason I run DSC off is to have full control over the car to truly enjoy thr virtues of the fantastic F8X chassis. Even in MDM, the system does frequent minute interventions that will not necessarily have the DSC light flashing in the instrument cluster, which interfere too much with the chassis balance. Those constant interventions also keep adding heat in the brake system and significantly limits the cooling periods. On the few occasions I have doodled with MDM on a dry track, I would start getting a softer brake pedal after a few laps. As soon as I would turn DSC off, the pedal would become firm again in less than a lap. So running MDM with stock pads will just put too much heat into them for them to cope.

An easy way to smear uneven pad deposit on the rotors is by pressing down soft hot brake pads on slow turning or stationary hot brake rotors. Once you've triggered an uneven deposit, it will just get worse every time you brake hard on hot brakes. The only way to get rid of that uneven deposit is with repetitive cold braking (a few weeks of normal street driving).

Count how many times you have to dab your hot brakes when you back-up into your parking spot after a session and you'll have your answer to why it's better to simply park nose first . Look at the paddocks, you'll see all the newbees backed-up and all the seasoned track rats parked nose first.

[Jojipoji]

Not to be a debbie downer but you can’t be serious with the suggestion to a novice who destroyed his tires to drive on track with dsc completely off to save his brakes right? What about the rest of his car?

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Yes, DSC off. The main reason I run DSC off is to have full control over the car to truly enjoy thr virtues of the fantastic F8X chassis. Even in MDM, the system does frequent minute interventions that will not necessarily have the DSC light flashing in the instrument cluster, which interfere too much with the chassis balance. Those constant interventions also keep adding heat in the brake system and significantly limits the cooling periods. On the few occasions I have doodled with MDM on a dry track, I would start getting a softer brake pedal after a few laps. As soon as I would turn DSC off, the pedal would become firm again in less than a lap. So running MDM with stock pads will just put too much heat into them for them to cope.

An easy way to smear uneven pad deposit on the rotors is by pressing down soft hot brake pads on slow turning or stationary hot brake rotors. Once you've triggered an uneven deposit, it will just get worse every time you brake hard on hot brakes. The only way to get rid of that uneven deposit is with repetitive cold braking (a few weeks of normal street driving).

Count how many times you have to dab your hot brakes when you back-up into your parking spot after a session and you'll have your answer to why it's better to simply park nose first . Look at the paddocks, you'll see all the newbees backed-up and all the seasoned track rats parked nose first.

[Suds]

Park in gear if it's a manual trans, no parking brake.
Roll a couple of times to move the brake pads on the rotors.
I didn't read any post, but good advice.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Jojipoji

Not to be a debbie downer but you can’t be serious with the suggestion to a novice who destroyed his tires to drive on track with dsc completely off to save his brakes right? What about the rest of his car?

I am not suggesting he does.

My first and foremost recommendation for track prep is a proper set of track pads, which will allow any newbe to track with DSC/MDM without issue. My comments were solely about what needs to be done to get the stock pads to work. The original person I responded to said he's "been doing it for years", so not a novice.

As for DSC off, I am of the school that believes it is better to go DSC off sooner than later. I've seen too many intermediate/advanced students get decently fast relying on driving aids and developed bad driving habits in the process; and when they finally decided to turn the aids off, it did not finish well for them and their car. DSC should defintely stay on during the first few times on track. I will actually refuse to ride with a student with DSC off that hasn't proven to me that he has basic car control skills and that he knows his way around the track. It is also my life that's on the line. But once he is able to run consistently and predictably, I am willing to accept that he turns the nannies off if he so wishes.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Suds

Park in gear if it's a manual trans, no parking brake.
Roll a couple of times to move the brake pads on the rotors.
I didn't read any post, but good advice.

There's no issues with using the parking brake after a track session with the F8X.

On the F8X, as on other M3 before it, the parking brake is handled by a seperate drum brake inside the rear disc hub. So applying the parking brake will not press the hot pads on the discs. I've used the parking brake after a track session on all my ///Ms since 2001 and have never had an issue.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There's no issues with using the parking brake after a track session with the F8X.

On the F8X, as on other M3 before it, the parking brake is handled by a seperate drum brake inside the rear disc hub. So applying the parking brake will not press the hot pads on the discs. I've used the parking brake after a track session on all my ///Ms since 2001 and have never had an issue.

Interesting take on the parking brake situation on an M. Although it is a drum, doesn't a lot of the heat from the rotor and hub transfer to the drum? Good to hear you have never had an issue but I would still be hesitant to use it myself as I would be afraid the drum would seize.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Pic18

Interesting take on the parking brake situation on an M. Although it is a drum, doesn't a lot of the heat from the rotor and hub transfer to the drum? Good to hear you have never had an issue but I would still be hesitant to use it myself as I would be afraid the drum would seize.

The main concern about applying the parking brake is not about seizing, it’s about making a pad imprint on the rotors, which is the perfect starting point for uneven pad deposit.

Yes, there is a fair bit of heat transfered to the drum, but it is not comparable to amount of heat the main discs and pads are seeing. Further, since the shoes of the parking brake are not used when on track, they are not hot and soft when you park like the main pads are. Further, if by some miracle you do put a shoe imprint on the drum, do you really care. I’ve never heard anyone compain about parking brake shudder .

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The main concern about applying the parking brake is not about seizing...

I've seen it happen enough times to recommend OTHERWISE. I've seen someone come off the track from a hot session, park it with the parking brake pulled (didn't know at the time), walk away for 15 minutes, come back and the shoes were fused to the rotor hat. Car wouldn't move even in first gear. That was one of the more extreme cases, where we had to take the wheel and caliper off, then lower the car onto the rotor with almost all the weight of the rear corner to get the shoe to release from the drum.

Needles to say he needed a new rotor after that. That was by far the worst case, where the rotor was hot enough and transferred enough heat to the drum to physically fuse the shoe to it. This was a car with a one piece rotor, not the compound 2 piece that comes with Ms so that exacerbated the problem.

But I've seen a few where someone absentmindedly put the parking brake on after a hot session, and then the shoe gets "stuck" on the drum upon the first try to move the car. Some rocking back and forth and high RPM clutch dumps breaks it loose though.

Again, not the best practice to yank up on the parking brake after a hot session IMO. You never know especially with today's cars using one of the rear brakes for stability control purposes how hot the rotors are.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I've seen it happen enough times to recommend OTHERWISE. I've seen someone come off the track from a hot session, park it with the parking brake pulled (didn't know at the time), walk away for 15 minutes, come back and the shoes were fused to the rotor hat. Car wouldn't move even in first gear. That was one of the more extreme cases, where we had to take the wheel and caliper off, then lower the car onto the rotor with almost all the weight of the rear corner to get the shoe to release from the drum.

Needles to say he needed a new rotor after that. That was by far the worst case, where the rotor was hot enough and transferred enough heat to the drum to physically fuse the shoe to it. This was a car with a one piece rotor, not the compound 2 piece that comes with Ms so that exacerbated the problem.

But I've seen a few where someone absentmindedly put the parking brake on after a hot session, and then the shoe gets "stuck" on the drum upon the first try to move the car. Some rocking back and forth and high RPM clutch dumps breaks it loose though.

Again, not the best practice to yank up on the parking brake after a hot session IMO. You never know especially with today's cars using one of the rear brakes for stability control purposes how hot the rotors are.

Originally Posted by The HACK

I've seen it happen enough times to recommend OTHERWISE. I've seen someone come off the track from a hot session, park it with the parking brake pulled (didn't know at the time), walk away for 15 minutes, come back and the shoes were fused to the rotor hat. Car wouldn't move even in first gear. That was one of the more extreme cases, where we had to take the wheel and caliper off, then lower the car onto the rotor with almost all the weight of the rear corner to get the shoe to release from the drum.

Needles to say he needed a new rotor after that. That was by far the worst case, where the rotor was hot enough and transferred enough heat to the drum to physically fuse the shoe to it. This was a car with a one piece rotor, not the compound 2 piece that comes with Ms so that exacerbated the problem.

But I've seen a few where someone absentmindedly put the parking brake on after a hot session, and then the shoe gets "stuck" on the drum upon the first try to move the car. Some rocking back and forth and high RPM clutch dumps breaks it loose though.

Again, not the best practice to yank up on the parking brake after a hot session IMO. You never know especially with today's cars using one of the rear brakes for stability control purposes how hot the rotors are.

Yeah that is what I have always been told, and although I have never witnessed it I have not doubt it is possible/has happened

[kevinmkirn]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my original questions on this. I ended up installing camber plates and Ferodo DS1.11. Square set up Apex EC-7 with NT O1's is next and should be arriving in the next week or so. My current issue is that the Ferodo brake pads squeak horribly, so I'm going to need to change to something else that can serve me on both the track and my daily driving. I live in a condo, so I can't change out the brake pads myself, and I really would like to not have to change them out each time I do a track day (looks like I'll average about 6-8 track days per year). There's a tire place close by, so I can have the track wheels changed out easily and it's only a 20 minute drive to the track.
Has anyone had any luck with pads that are okay for both? What about Ferodo DS 2500?
Thanks again.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my original questions on this. I ended up installing camber plates and Ferodo DS1.11. Square set up Apex EC-7 with NT O1's is next and should be arriving in the next week or so. My current issue is that the Ferodo brake pads squeak horribly, so I'm going to need to change to something else that can serve me on both the track and my daily driving. I live in a condo, so I can't change out the brake pads myself, and I really would like to not have to change them out each time I do a track day (looks like I'll average about 6-8 track days per year). There's a tire place close by, so I can have the track wheels changed out easily and it's only a 20 minute drive to the track.
Has anyone had any luck with pads that are okay for both? What about Ferodo DS 2500?
Thanks again.

How are you planning on swapping wheels then?

If you're doing that many events then you really should swap so you're not compromising one or the other. The DS2500 can probably get your thru a track event but theyll either wear fast or fade when pushed hard. No personal experience with them, but I remember reading they're good pads.

If you're selling the DS1.11's let me know though

[CRRobert]

I recently had the Ferodo DS2500 installed, no track time yet on them, had to cancel my event, but for my daily driving, they do squeal in certain scenarios for me, mostly very light brake pressure at the end of a stop. If they squeal, usually I add a little more pressure and it goes away but car comes to a more abrupt stop. I will have a little bit of some AutoCross school this weekend to see how they react. I am running PS4S for now. if and when go to NT01, was looking to swap out just for track days and go with the DS1.11's though.

[nicknaz]

Anyone here run Gloc? I saw they have pads for iron rotor f80.

I use r10 front and r8 rear on my spec Miata and they can take a pounding at the track (eg enduros) and I drive the car to and from the track with them

I’d try em on my f80 if I still have it

[noone]

Any updates kevinmkirn? How was your next track day with new wheels and pads?

This thread was a great read for me as a new M3 owner contemplating tracking a car for the first time ever.

Wonder if iRacing will help me develop real life skills?

[c0nrad]

Originally Posted by noone

Any updates kevinmkirn? How was your next track day with new wheels and pads?

This thread was a great read for me as a new M3 owner contemplating tracking a car for the first time ever.

Wonder if iRacing will help me develop real life skills?

honestly you will be fine stock for your first day. my MPSS and oem brake pads held up fine for me and i was pretty comfortably pushing my car in the later sessions.

i'm really not sure how OP chunked his tires in 60 degree track temps

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

When you change camber it also affects toe. The issue is the combination of added camber and excessive toe will eat tires during daily driving. Thus its not great to change the setting for track and change back later. I would get camber plates, have them installed and set to a tolerable setting for you. From my reading in here that's about -2.5 degrees for the f80 I think and you can run zero toe or slight toe in.

On the tire issue I'd buy a set of tires that can handle highway and track use. The only thing you're dealing with in FL is occasional rain, NBD. Think tires like RE-71R, AD-08, RE-11, etc.

If you want a great track tire that you can also daily drive - I've run the Bridgestone RE-71R's and they are one of the best dual purpose tires out there - would very highly recommend these for anyone who does not buy dedicated track wheels and tires