Overheating brakes

[Tooth]

So I've been tracking at least 2 times per month for the last year and have increasingly built up speed but now have overheated and thus destroyed 2 front OEM calipers. I'm curious to see if people have had similar problems. I'm looking now to upgrade to a BBK.

Chris

[F3IGHTY]

Yup very common, check out the Essex AP BBKs

[pfl]

Why calipers? What makes you think you've destroyed the calipers? What pads are you using?

[Tooth]

Originally Posted by pfl

Why calipers? What makes you think you've destroyed the calipers? What pads are you using?

Because the piston seized. Used ferrados and pagids. And it's happened twice now. The brakes get way too hot. Also melted the center caps off my apex wheels.

[pfl]

Which Ferodos and also which tires did you use? I use DSUNO and they are an overkill for NT01s. I have in past used Brembo Type 3 and Type 5 brakes and 6 Piston calipers and they have worked great but I know they are not the usual choice on F8x platform.

[Mandi90TT]

Honestly, you are doing something wrong if you've overheated your brakes that bad. You are driving with DSC completely off, right, because if not, that will use up your brakes.

[Ex_Stig]

Look into a brake cooling kit. Much cheaper than this BBK.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by Tooth

Because the piston seized. Used ferrados and pagids. And it's happened twice now. The brakes get way too hot. Also melted the center caps off my apex wheels.

I had one of my calipers seize last season so I ended up rebuilding them myself this spring. My root cause analysis leads me to believe that the piston seized due to dirt build-up that entered the sliding surfaces thru the broken and cracked dust boots. The actual piston seals were in pretty good shape and probably could have been re-used without issue. Ended up doing all four calipers, pretty straight forward process.

Knock on wood, but I've done 3 events since the rebuild without issue (one at Watkins Glen, and two at MidO). I did install some DIY brake ducting to help as well.

You could probably get away with just replacing the dust boots to prolong the caliper life (replace after they are severely cracked).

[Tooth]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Honestly, you are doing something wrong if you've overheated your brakes that bad. You are driving with DSC completely off, right, because if not, that will use up your brakes.

All nannies off. Idk maybe. Only tracked about 25 days but speeds definitely improving. Was going clockwise both times so makes sense left front went both times. Instructors I went with didn't mention anything wrong as far as technique like overusing brakes. For reference I run about 1:45-1:46 around MSR Houston.

[Flying Low]

When I had OEM iron brakes, the dust seals were totally destroyed in one track day. The rear wheels would get so hot that the weights would move around. On the front the weights would leave the wheels until I started taping them in place with high temp aluminum. The outside pads would wear faster than the inside pads by a lot. Calipers turned green. Front brakes have 2 1/2” ducts at center of hub but OEM hub is open design and air doesn’t get into vanes enough. I put a Stoptech bbk on and now the only problem is front dust seals going bad. Temp gun showed about a 150 to 170 degree reduction in temperature in front and somewhat less reduction in rear. But this is with cooling ducts still on front. Stoptech has a closed hub design so a lot of air goes through vanes. The Stoptech rear brakes are a lot thicker than OEM and 4 pistons.

[Tooth]

Originally Posted by Flying Low

When I had OEM iron brakes, the dust seals were totally destroyed in one track day. The rear wheels would get so hot that the weights would move around. On the front the weights would leave the wheels until I started taping them in place with high temp aluminum. The outside pads would wear faster than the inside pads by a lot. Calipers turned green. Front brakes have 2 1/2” ducts at center of hub but OEM hub is open design and air doesn’t get into vanes enough. I put a Stoptech bbk on and now the only problem is front dust seals going bad. Temp gun showed about a 150 to 170 degree reduction in temperature in front and somewhat less reduction in rear. But this is with cooling ducts still on front. Stoptech has a closed hub design so a lot of air goes through vanes. The Stoptech rear brakes are a lot thicker than OEM and 4 pistons.

This helps a lot! Thank you.

Chris

[FLOSS M]

Originally Posted by Tooth

Because the piston seized. Used ferrados and pagids. And it's happened twice now. The brakes get way too hot. Also melted the center caps off my apex wheels.

I had the same problem with the Apex center cap melting off ...
The calipers did start to show a greenish color after extensive track use.

[NYG]

Well this is worrisome...

I'm about to start tracking my M4CS with PFC11s.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by NYG

Well this is worrisome...

I'm about to start tracking my M4CS with PFC11s.

To be honest, it's a small percentage of people who track their M cars and have brake issues.

I track my M pretty regularly, on Nitto NT-01 (r-compound) tires, with a nice tune on the car (more hp=greater speed to scrub off), and I've been fine with PFC-08s front and rear, and new fluid each year (Castrol SRT), and have had no problems.

Everyone is different, of course, but if you are a new track person, and especially if you are on PS4S or other stock tires, I doubt you will have any brake issues, with the caveat that make sure you turn the digital nannies off, as if not, they use braking to help with traction control,a nd that will likely overuse your brakes.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

To be honest, it's a small percentage of people who track their M cars and have brake issues.

I track my M pretty regularly, on Nitto NT-01 (r-compound) tires, with a nice tune on the car (more hp=greater speed to scrub off), and I've been fine with PFC-08s front and rear, and new fluid each year (Castrol SRT), and have had no problems.

Everyone is different, of course, but if you are a new track person, and especially if you are on PS4S or other stock tires, I doubt you will have any brake issues, with the caveat that make sure you turn the digital nannies off, as if not, they use braking to help with traction control,a nd that will likely overuse your brakes.

I track my 440 regularly (PS4S on it as of recently) and haven't had any issues with my calipers, only boiling on tracks like the Glen. My CS has NT-01s with PFC11s and blue calipers so I'm really hoping I won't have any issues. I don't baby my brakes on the track.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by NYG

I track my 440 regularly (PS4S on it as of recently) and haven't had any issues with my calipers, only boiling on tracks like the Glen. My CS has NT-01s with PFC11s and blue calipers so I'm really hoping I won't have any issues. I don't baby my brakes on the track.

If you can modulate your stock steel brakes you probably won't run into much issues. However, that requires giving up speed on the back straight, reducing trail-braking, and potentially running shorter sessions at full pace.

If you're chasing lap times (or GT3s ) then eventually you'll have the same issue as some of us have experienced.

If I were to do it all over again I would probably go with a BBK upfront from the start. Having green calipers is ugly and the OEM calipers aren't designed to be tracked for extended periods like purpose-built units.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

If you can modulate your stock steel brakes you probably won't run into much issues. However, that requires giving up speed on the back straight, reducing trail-braking, and potentially running shorter sessions at full pace.

If you're chasing lap times (or GT3s ) then eventually you'll have the same issue as some of us have experienced.

If I were to do it all over again I would probably go with a BBK upfront from the start. Having green calipers is ugly and the OEM calipers aren't designed to be tracked for extended periods like purpose-built units.

I don't mind the calipers turning green. I know most vehicles with painted calipers end up discolored from heating, except for the vehicles that actually design for air flow like the Porsches we chase. I'm mostly concerned about complete caliper failure from heating but aside from a few people, it doesn't seem like this is too common or will warrant a BBK. I was hoping to decide if I need the added braking of a BBK after a few track days, especially at the Glen, just for performance reasons not for fear of OEM failure.

I wonder if the 11 compound generates less heat then the 08 compound from PFC.

[Mandi90TT]

My calipers went green, and now the front ones are blackish with a hint of green. Still get great performance out of them, and again, I track my car regularly, and I am chasing some pretty good lap times, as well as chasing some pretty fast cars.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

My calipers went green, and now the front ones are blackish with a hint of green. Still get great performance out of them, and again, I track my car regularly, and I am chasing some pretty good lap times, as well as chasing some pretty fast cars.

That makes me feel better. Discoloration of the paint wouldn't bother me. I'm hoping the slight weight reduction on the CS helps as well. I'm tracking about 1-2X/Month and I run the car hard after two sessions. What pads do you run?

[nicknaz]

Have you looked at your data Op, to check how you are using your brakes? I shared my spec Miata (has gloc r10 front and r8 rear and motul brake fluid) with another driver running similar lap times as me recently, and she was using the brakes so aggressively that she blued the rotors and caused pad deposits, whereas I have never had issues, nor has the car builder, who did significantly better lap times than either my friend or I

Not trying to suggest you are doing anything wrong, but might be worth comparing your data with someone running similar or better times and isn’t changing to BBK to see if there’s something to consider.

[SYT_Shadow]

OP, with sufficient motivation you can set the dust boots on fire

I adapted my PFC BBK to my CS before the first track day as I knew this would be an issue. I will work on adapting a rear PFC BBK to the CS in the coming months.


If you track at a sufficient level you need a BBK. At this point I would only consider either the PFC one I use or the AP RadiCal setup.


People have lots of opinions on brakes and many things related to track use. My advice is to be careful who you listen to, because most people are the opposite of fast so their advice is not that useful if you happen to be fast.

PS: please never track with center caps again!