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      12-01-2013, 02:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonagon
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Originally Posted by pkim1079
So add in dct for an additional 70kg and the m4 is only 10kg lighter than an e92 manual?!
No
Please elaborate lol.
Because a DCT can't possibly add 70kg (154 lbs) and there are many other weight saving parts in the F8x. Where did you get your numbers?
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      12-01-2013, 02:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuz5150 View Post
Thanks for all this info, my head hurts/


Yes, there is "to much info" and that is one of the problems with my post...

When I realized that I made the "Summary" part of the post, but I still wanted to keep all the references etc. Perhaps a better layout like in the official threads would be more suitable? (not that I know how to do that though...)
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      12-01-2013, 02:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
So add in dct for an additional 70kg and the m4 is only 10kg lighter than an e92 manual?!
In the E9x M3 the difference between a M6 and DCT in EU curb weight is 20kg (1655kg/1675kg).

As others have pointed out the new F8x MT6 transmission is 12kg lighter than it's predecessor. The DCT in the F8x is the DCI700 from Getrag which is rated at 79-82kg. The DCI600 in the E9x was 79kg I believe.

So in the F8x I believe, based on the above, that the DCT version of the M3/M4 will be 32kg heavier than a MT6. And therefor possibly "only" 68kg lighter than a DCT E9x M3.

Last edited by Boss330; 12-01-2013 at 03:30 PM..
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      12-01-2013, 02:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuz5150 View Post
Thanks for all this info, my head hurts/
Yup me too. Very helpful though
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      12-01-2013, 06:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's not that bad but since inconsistency do exist it's very hard to know which numbers are what without doing some research. The european reporting seems to be much more consistent and reliable by the European brands. The "checking" I refer to is to lookup the European numbers. I usually start with the official German web sites for the manufacturer and in some cases verify with other European countries web sites. Hopefully we will see more consistency in the future of US weight reporting.

If we take the new X5 X-drive 35i for example these are the reported weights:

bmwusa.com: 4680 lbs Curb weight
bmw.de: 2030kg / 4475 lbs Leergewicht DIN
bmw.de 2105kg / 4640 lbs Leergewicht EG

So for the X5 it looks similar to the E92 M3 where driver + luggage is included in the curb weight to get to a 40 lbs above Leergewicht EG.

Now for comparison let's take the Porsche Cayenne.

porsche.com/usa 4398 lbs Curb weight
porsche.de 1995kg/ 4398 lbs Leergewicht DIN
porsche.de 2070kg/ 4564 lbs Leergewicht EG

So if you just used the US curb weight you would get that the Cayenne is 4680 - 4398 = 282 lbs ligther.
But look closer and you can see that the Cayenne's curb weight reported is that of it's Leergewicht DIN ( without driver and luggage ) while the X5 is (Leergewicht EG + 40 lbs) which inlcudes driver and luggage.

When comparing apples to apples the real difference is 4475 - 4398 = 77 lbs.
I.e US reported curb weight is not consistent but Leergewicht EG and DIN are consistent between these two German brands.
^Excellent addition and example. This is far from the first case in which folks claim a similar Porsche model is drastically lighter than it is compared to another brand. Many times the source of the claim is simply an apples to oranges comparison.

Boss330: I suggest adding the Leergewicht DIN and Leergewicht EG terms. Again, I think it is far more important to understand what the OEMs are doing (in Europe and in NA) as compared to what various governmental/regulatory bodies are doing. In fact, I'll be so bold as to say no one really even cares about the latter. This could help clean up and shorten the OP.
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Last edited by swamp2; 12-01-2013 at 06:51 PM..
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      12-01-2013, 06:46 PM   #28
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Quoted curb weight for our US 335 GT: 4010
Actual, with full tank and no driver: 4060

First time i have ever weighed a BMW and had it come in above spec weight. Most have been 100 plus less than spec with a full tank. Methinks BMW marketing dept has gotten its hands on the weight specs recently. See for example, car and driver's weights for the supposedly lighter f30 328 which came in a significant amount heavier than an E90 they tested. There is plenty of weasel room in the regs to find 50lbs of paper weight reductions
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      12-02-2013, 03:39 AM   #29
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Remark: the 75 kg for 'driver' in the EU weight specification is actually 68 kg for the driver, and 7 kg of luggage.

Just so you guys don't think that Europeans are fat
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      12-02-2013, 04:38 AM   #30
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Just use DIN (EU).. don't even have to know what it stands for.. its a base car, manual, no options 75kg load, 90% fuel.
The only people who use anything else are people trying to 'fudge' figures - which unfortunately includes BMW NA as they refer to how the "curb" weight of the new M3/M4 will be X amount lighter..
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      12-02-2013, 04:54 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Just use DIN (EU).. don't even have to know what it stands for.. its a base car, manual, no options 75kg load, 90% fuel.
The only people who use anything else are people trying to 'fudge' figures - which unfortunately includes BMW NA as they refer to how the "curb" weight of the new M3/M4 will be X amount lighter..
Exactly. That was also my point when all the figures of the new M3/M4 were discussed and everyone was so euphoric to have a Lotus-like car all of a sudden. Always read the small print and don't let yourself get reeled in by marketing blabla.

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      12-02-2013, 09:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock
Just use DIN (EU).. don't even have to know what it stands for.. its a base car, manual, no options 75kg load, 90% fuel.
The only people who use anything else are people trying to 'fudge' figures - which unfortunately includes BMW NA as they refer to how the "curb" weight of the new M3/M4 will be X amount lighter..
Unfortunately you do need to know what it stands for, as evidenced by this post.

DIN weight and EU weight are not the same standard. DIN weight does not include the 75 kg for driver and cargo.

EDIT: And after re-reading the initial (helpful) post, it looks like the "NEW" DIN weights now include a driver?? Either way, I'm pretty sure people still need to know what it stands for, especially when comparing to cars from a couple years ago, which would have been using the previously accepted DIN weight standard of no driver/cargo.
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      12-02-2013, 10:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Remark: the 75 kg for 'driver' in the EU weight specification is actually 68 kg for the driver, and 7 kg of luggage.

Just so you guys don't think that Europeans are fat
In the last EU Directive, it's just stated that the weight of the driver is 75kg. It's not divided in 68+7kg anymore.
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      12-02-2013, 10:58 AM   #34
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Moral of the story is the only way to know for sure what a car weighs is to weigh it. Shocker...
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      12-02-2013, 11:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If we take the new X5 X-drive 35i for example these are the reported weights:

bmwusa.com: 4680 lbs Curb weight
bmw.de: 2030kg / 4475 lbs Leergewicht DIN
bmw.de 2105kg / 4640 lbs Leergewicht EG

So for the X5 it looks similar to the E92 M3 where driver + luggage is included in the curb weight to get to a 40 lbs above Leergewicht EG.

The 40lbs difference for the X5 must be due to the 33% optional equipment rule in the US, because it doesn't match added weight of driver at 75kg or 165lbs...
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      12-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Moral of the story is the only way to know for sure what a car weighs is to weigh it. Shocker...
Kind of sad but almost true. I can see confusion/uncertainty/lack of standardization for options. Lots of options can weigh a lot. However, confusion for fluids, fuel, driver and cargo are more or less unacceptable and do typically amount to marketing BS...
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      12-02-2013, 11:46 AM   #37
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The whole "DIN/ISO Kerb Weight/Leergewicht DIN:" and whether or not drive is included appears to be very ambiguous. Am I missing something in this section? I guess not much different than the contradiction between US legal definition and that used by many (most?) manufacturers. Ugh. I was hoping some more precision was possible.
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      12-02-2013, 11:55 AM   #38
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      12-02-2013, 12:11 PM   #39
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It seems to me that CURRENTLY we get reliable apples to apples comparison for the European cars by using one of the German/EU Leergewicht weights. It doesn't matter which one as long as it's the same. I.e you can compare Leergewicht EG or Leergewicht DIN and it will be apples to apples. Translation between them is easy, EG is 75kg more than DIN.

We can forget all the other metrics as Kerb weight, Curb weight, Unladen etc. since they just bring confusion and Curb weight especially is not consistently reported. A short description of Leergewicht EG and Leergewicht DIN and where to get these numbers should be sufficient as a sticky IMO.
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      12-02-2013, 12:22 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The 40lbs difference for the X5 must be due to the 33% optional equipment rule in the US, because it doesn't match added weight of driver at 75kg or 165lbs...
Your guess is a good as mine where this extra 40 lbs comes from. For the M3 we guessed DCT but that's not a factor here. With the Cayenne they add nothing for extra US options. Better just forget about US reported Curb weight and use the seemingly within and across brands consistent Leergewicht measures.
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      12-02-2013, 12:26 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It seems to me that CURRENTLY we get reliable apples to apples comparison for the European cars by using one of the German/EU Leergewicht weights. It doesn't matter which one as long as it's the same. I.e you can compare Leergewicht EG or Leergewicht DIN and it will be apples to apples. Translation between them is easy, EG is 75kg more than DIN.

We can forget all the other metrics as Kerb weight, Curb weight, Unladen etc. since they just bring confusion and Curb weight especially is not consistently reported. A short description of Leergewicht EG and Leergewicht DIN and where to get these numbers should be sufficient as a sticky IMO.
Leergewicht is just the German word for "empty weight" BTW
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      12-02-2013, 12:37 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Leergewicht is just the German word for "empty weight" BTW
Ich weiss, aber ich muss gefragen, was ist so leer mit 90% benzin, ein fuhrer und gepack (EG)? It's not helpful in the confusion that is vehicle weight reporting...
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      12-02-2013, 12:38 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Kind of sad but almost true. I can see confusion/uncertainty/lack of standardization for options. Lots of options can weigh a lot. However, confusion for fluids, fuel, driver and cargo are more or less unacceptable and do typically amount to marketing BS...
The latest EU Directive, which I added to the OP yesterday, states that the manufacturer must declare the weight of options. But the weight of options is subtracted from the vehicle to establish curb weight/leergewicht EU (say that the type approval authority has a version with options, then they will simply subtract the options from the weighed weight).

I'm not aware of confusion on fluids and fuel? Fluids should be at 100% both in the US and EU. Fuel is at 90% in EU and 100% in the US. Driver is 75kg in EU, according to latest definition (no extra for cargo). Unless a "dry weight" is reported, which I frankly haven't seen anywhere lately?

The US curb weight seems to be inconsistently reported by manufacturers, but only with regards to including driver or not?

As solstice commented, so far it seems EU/EG Curb weight (Leergewicht) and DIN Curb weight (Leergewicht) are the most reliable and comparable figures we have.

Last edited by Boss330; 12-02-2013 at 12:44 PM..
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      12-02-2013, 12:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Ich weiss, aber ich muss gefragen, was ist so leer mit 90% benzin, ein fuhrer und gepack (EG)? It's not helpful in the confusion that is vehicle weight reporting...
Good question

But it's just the same as the English word "curb weight" I guess... The official EU nomenclature is "mass of the vehicle in running order", which is a more accurate description I guess.

Leergewicht is just the old German word to describe the weight of the vehicle without passengers and cargo.

BTW. The Swedish word is "Tjänstevikt" meaning "Service weight".
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