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07-07-2013, 11:50 AM | #177 | ||
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07-07-2013, 12:00 PM | #178 | ||
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07-07-2013, 04:23 PM | #179 | |
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07-07-2013, 04:38 PM | #180 | |
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BTW, there was no S60 to my knowledge - the few road going cars homolongated to use this engine just used a detuned P60, as far as I know. |
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07-07-2013, 05:00 PM | #181 | |
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07-07-2013, 05:39 PM | #182 | |||||
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![]() Obviously revs and exhaust change the pitch of the exhaust. But let's say that you put the M3 intake and exhaust on a Mustang V8 and rev it over the same rev range as the S65. You would not be able to tell any difference in sound. Try to put the same exhaust on a 458 Italia (intake is allready similar). VERY different sound! What's the main difference? (hint: Crankshaft layout ![]() Quote:
![]() The differences in block strength here are highly unlikely to be detectable on the soundtrack IMHO. Individual throttle bodies do make a difference, but is really not part of the engines basic design. Just like exhaust, it's added on parts to enhance the efficiency of the basic engine design. Individual throttle bodies are mainly there to get super sharp throttle response. Regardless, a Boss Mustang Laguna Seca (or any other Mustang V8) would sound even more similar to the S65 (as regards intake sound), still won't sound like a 458 Italia. The S65 isn't the only engine that has high flowing heads... Quote:
![]() The Boss 302 Power curve isn't all that bad either: ![]() And, the Maserati Granturismo Sport has a engine that isn't half bad either. It's not like the S65 is something so special that BMW must have discovered some secret ingredient no one knows about... Quote:
No matter how you try to argue about how much the heads flow, bedplate engine block etc. The factor that makes a Ferrari V8's sound stand out from other V8's is down to the fact that it uses a flat plane crank! One other issue is the huge weight saving on a flat plane crank, making the throttle response much better. I suggest you read these articles/threads to learn a bit more about why there IS a big difference between cross plane and flat plane crank designs: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283826 http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ne/smooth4.htm http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...raftshaft.aspx And some videos of a Chevy with flat plane crank, notice how different it sounds... And notice how the M3 GTR sounds so different from the std M3 (with the P65 engine which actually is a S65 engine, but only with a, YES, flat plane crankshaft). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=LeiA9vyi7YM I'll finish off by quoting Ferrari: Quote:
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07-07-2013, 07:56 PM | #183 |
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I currently Own the E9X but I am looking forward to the inline 6 twin turbo F8X M3/m4. Having driven other turbo vehicles and seeing the increase of Gains in hp and torque after modding a turbo vehicle vs NA I am curious to see what the next gen will bring to the table. I most likely will keep my E9X and Possibly ge an M4 down the road after the second year production.
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07-07-2013, 11:19 PM | #184 | |
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I'm well aware of both engine balance, crank design options, rotational inertia, firing order and the like. Again, I freely admit that cross vs. flat plane is a major engine architectural feature, however, again, it is only one component that defines an engines entire character. In my opinion both redline and power delivery as just as important in defining character. Let's think of it this way. Imagine some (odd) hypothetical flat plane V8 engine with every aspect both low performance and even low quality (carburetors, distributor, cast iron everything, no forged parts, no advanced electronics, loose tolerances, heavy, over-designed parts, no variable valve system, no advanced knock detection, etc.). Now compare that engine and an S65 to the F430. Yes somewhat of an extreme example but you should get the point. I believe you are losing sight of the forest for the trees. Let's talk a bit more about a bedplate design and your component view vs. my system level view. Here is one decent reference for you - engine builder magazine link. The BLS engine is not a bedplate design and does not need to be whereas there are fundamental engineering reasons (mostly redline and high peak combustion pressures) why both the F430 and S56 engines are bedplate designs. You can start with any part of the engine (say crank) and work your way out and say that everything else is just an accessory, just a head, just a throttle body, just the cams, just the ECU, etc. However, the fact of the matter is that an engine; sound, performance, efficiency, character, power delivery, longevity, etc. are all due to the sum of the parts comprising the engine system. To minimize the importance of some components also minimizes the key performance benefits those components provide. These "components" certainly are not designed in isolation and certainly can't be picked off of parts bin shelf willy-nilly and successfully integrated into a given engine design. Although neither of us has (nor can get) enough access to design details for the BLS (what is its darn engine code anyway...) nor S65 engines, I would be wiling to guarantee that following both air and fuel from intake and gas tank to the combustion chamber would yield a significant number and of quantitative and qualitative differences. Other differences would be beyond the realm of inspection and would require great engineering insight from OEM. Other engine components and systems would yield a similar array of differences. Because of the overall engineering challenges in getting high specific output and high redlines I contend there will be plenty more similarities among the S65 and F430 than S65 and BLS. Your comparison between the BLS heads and the M3 heads also falls flat. No BMW isn't the only company with "high flowing" heads. But also the days of hot rodders placing a head on a "flow bench" are long since gone (at least for high end race and high end consumer engines). That work today, as well as modeling the entire intake tract and the actual combustion process is now done on supercomputers using computational fluid dynamics (again it is at least done this way for many high rpm racing engines and some production engines). The torque curves for the S65 vs. the BLS engine in part, demonstrate this system level engineering excellence by BMW M. The BLS engine has a pretty strong drop off in torque beginning as low as 5300 rpm. This not an insignificant detail. You can really FEEL this and it absolutely is detrimental to performance. Again it is a very fine engine, they just did not need the engineering and expense to make it breathe at 8000+ rpm to achieve their design goals, a larger displacement engine with more torque provides that. Just as Ferrari and BMW (S65) went a different direction for a different goal. All of these engines perform admirably they just go about it in a different fashion, and again the resulting CHARACTER of the S65 and F430 are much more similar than those of the S65 and BLS engine. I think your videos (and now "mine") make my point more than yours. Neither the M3 GTR nor the other videos sounds ANYTHING like a Ferrari to me. In fact, I bet most people, general enthusiasts included, could not identify a flat plane vs. cross plane V8 if somehow that was the only single change to an engine. We don't have the luxury of making such comparisons because flat plane tends to be accompanied by a wide variety of other components and systems that all work together to produce high redlines and flat torque curves. I'll end with a couple of videos myself that show how radically different exhausts can make the S65 sound. In my evaluation these sound much more like a F430 than either of the flat plane videos you posted. Less so at idle but then again at idle you have much more relative engine noise than intake or exhaust noise ![]() I contend you simply cannot make a BLS Mustang sound like this. Why - primarily redline. Higher redline have just about everything on the engine moving at higher speeds, rotational and linear and this vast array of excitations are what produce the higher frequencies in the sound spectrum. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree here. To you crankshaft type is the single most important factor in judging two engines similarity or dissimilarity, whereas to me, both redline and power delivery are either equally or more important. Good discussion! Cheers.
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07-08-2013, 03:07 AM | #185 | |
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![]() But, in engineering terms there are really two different V8 concepts: Either with a cross plane crank or a flat plane crank. Within those two concepts you can obviously go to extremes and have multiple variations on the theme. So, in the area of "state of tune" the S65 is obviously closer to a Ferrari V8 than it is to a Chevy V8 in a Suburban. But so is the BLS engine (although not as close as the S65). And with tuning the BLS engine can come even closer to the S65. That is just down to "tuning". So yes, in terms of exploiting the potential of maximum output the S65 is closer to a Ferrari engine. But that just reinforces my point. If we concede that the S65 is in just as high a state of tune as a Ferrari V8 and with similarly highly developed hardware. Then what is the only difference between them? The crankshaft!!! That is what, according to engineers, Ferrari and everyone else, is the deciding factor when deciding what kind of engine you need. If you want a comfortable, vibration free etc. engine: Go cross plane. If you want to build a high performance engine AND be willing to trade off NVH issues: Go flat plane. To put it simply: The Ferrari/Maserati V8 engines are probably the best example between the two concepts. The Ferrari uses a flat plane crank Maserati a cross plane crank. Apart from that the engines are similar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari/Maserati_engine The S65 is comparable to the Maserati engine, since it has a cross plane crank. The P65 to the Ferrari since it has a flat plane crank. That crank design makes for a different sound and better exhaust scavenging. To my ears the sound is different, the flat plane crank engine doesn't have that cross plane "burble" at idle and medium revs. Under acceleration there is also a different sound. |
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07-08-2013, 07:06 AM | #186 |
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The flat plane crank gives the Ferrari engines a unique sound vs a cross plane V8, but clearly the engineering challenges become more significant as RPM increases regardless of crank design. So in that regard the S65 is more like a Ferrari engine than it is like other typical V8 engines out there. And that includes those from many other manufacturers from Toyota to Hyundai to Mercedes to FoMoCo. Of course, piston speed is one of the bigger concerns and that is a function not just of RPM but of stroke too.
We would be remiss to not point out, incidentally, that Ferrari and Porsche have moved on from the 8K RPM club to the 9K RPM club now. So they are playing in a different league. And 125hp/L too. In fact I've read that the new 458 Scuderia is going to hit 600hp from the 4.5L engine which is 133hp/L. Maybe we'll see 10000 RPM and 150hp/L before naturally aspirated engines finally fade away once and for all. |
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07-08-2013, 07:55 AM | #187 | |
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To summarise, the last NA engines will be the Porsche Flat 6, Ferrari V8 and probably the V12 engines. I forgot the Honda NSX II. The future of NA engines dépends on two things: hybridisation, yet it means nothing, there are many hydrid cars with FI (e.i. McLaren P1, BMW i8), but it also dépends on racing régulations. Now F1 went FI, but if FI will also have advantages in GT, then it might very well be the end of NA engines. |
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07-08-2013, 08:03 AM | #188 |
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Don't forget about the good old American V8, Levi. As long as they keep putting them in trucks, they'll still be there to power muscle cars and sports cars too. Also, Japanese companies have been largely resistant to FI trends as well, especially for higher displacement engines.
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07-08-2013, 10:23 AM | #189 |
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Now many manufacturer just pull turbo´s every engine, principle "if customers buy still, we save money", they just try to avoid Eu emission penalty payments.
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07-08-2013, 11:44 AM | #190 | |
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If you want to obsess in specific output sure, however, I argue a more holistic approach to an engines character and superiority. Even just on the electronic side the ECU in the S65 is capable of 200 million calculations per second, that in the S54 - about 25 million. That combined with the advanced ion knock detection built into the ignition coils in the S65 take its electronics so far past the S54 and make it look a bit primitive. Also a bedplate block as mentioned in the prior discussions, made from the same aluminum alloy in the sam facility as that which makes their F1 blocks. What's in the old S54 - a good old fashioned cast iron block... The same comments about torque curve as the vs. Boss 302 Laguna Seca apply to the S54 (not nearly as broad nor flat).
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07-08-2013, 11:45 AM | #191 | |
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07-08-2013, 12:02 PM | #192 | ||||
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![]() Again good discussion, cheers.
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07-08-2013, 12:38 PM | #193 | |
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I completely agree that the S65 sounds much closer to the Ferrari flat plane crank engine, which is down to rpm in particular.
I think we just emphasise different traits to the engine design. For me, there is two separate V8 designs: Cross plane and flat plane. The rest is, for me, just variations on a theme depending on what use the engine is intended for (i.e DOHC, cam in block, 4 valve/2 valve etc.). You can change that hardware on both designs and it will obviously change the engines characteristics, but no matter what you change of other hardware, a cross plane crank and flat plane crank engine will still be very different. You can tune a cross plane V8 to the same specific output, but the flat plane engine will still have superior response and exhaust scavenging. Leaving room for more power and a sharper response. There IS a reason F1 V8 engines, and the P65, use a flat plane crank. The S65 and P65 is a really good example that validates the point about the importance, and reasons, to use a flat plane crank on a engine where maximum power and response is of importance. These two vids illustrate the difference between a cross plane and flat plane crank engine. Notice how you have two adjacent cylinders firing in sequence on the cross plane crank engine. This is what gives the V8 that uneven, burbly sound, and causes exhaust scavenging issues. I'll finish off once again by quoting Ferrari: Quote:
Last edited by Boss330; 07-08-2013 at 03:04 PM.. |
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07-08-2013, 01:57 PM | #194 |
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NISFAN, what is your background (car knowledge) and driver experience level?
I think you should try driving a turbocharged car and an n/a car with the same power output back to back. You will then understand the definition of turbo lag. One car will definitely not respond as well as the other when pressing the gas pedal. |
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07-08-2013, 05:00 PM | #196 |
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Note that I wasn't trying to say it was the only thing determining the differences in engine sound.
Just like it would be correct to say that wide hips give Beyonce a different look from Kanye West. Certainly not the only thing that provide the differing aesthetic! I won't pull the thread off topic by enumerating some of the other interesting properties that also contribute. ![]() |
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07-08-2013, 11:25 PM | #197 | ||
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Now all this being said I did perhaps publicly but certainly privately had hoped the S65 would be a flat plane design. The reason BMW did not was because the S65 is simply the S85 V10 from the M5 with two cylinders lopped off. However, another significant factor is engine balance. A cross plane V8 has near perfect first and second order balance whereas the flat plane V8 achieves first order but not second order balance. This makes the cross plane superior from an NVH standpoint (and as you stated somewhat inferior for an all out race/sports engine). Typically extremely high rpms are hampered in a cross plane V8 design but that obviously wasn't much of a real world limitation in the S65 (unless you call 8400 rpms somehow not high). BMW M had their cake and ate it too in this regard. It's probably well overdue to get back to talking about forced induction...
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07-09-2013, 12:26 AM | #198 |
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In my recent M event at Sepang, I spoke with one of the instructors who drove the development F80/82 almost on a daily basis. He promised me that the new power-train contains something new and innovative. That means it's not a case of a simply slapping 2 turbos on the N55 and calling it a day. He even said there is a another power rush at the higher rpm range. I was interrupted by some clowns and didn't manage to probe further. I am still hitting myself on this. I was going to ask him if it contained a 3rd turbo, an electric turbo, or something else...
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